TN Temple's demise

[Jubal Sackett]

I may have mentioned that my youngest son is a jr  at Shorter Univ. down in Rome, GA. I may have also mentioned that he's 6"10" and the starting post player who took five charges tonight and had numerous rebounds and points to help Shorter beat Spring Hill College 89-74 tonight down in Mobile, AL.

Sorry, got side tracked. Any way, Shorter is an SBC school that is rocking. Great programs and academics. Great athletics, except for the football team and it is/was about 40 miles from TN Temple. About 40 miles NE of TN Temple you have Lee Univ which is a Church of God School. Again, great programs and academics. Shorter beats them in basketball,l la crosse and baseball but at least they have teams. Both schools are thriving. Both are turning out employable graduates in both church and secular fields.  What happened to TN Temple? Shorter is older than the other two and TN Temple was the newest but had still been around a good while.

Jubal Scackett

The poster formerly known as ChuckBob.

 

[bruinboy]

Pretty easy................................... legalism.  They tried to turn the ship around after it was already 2/3 underwater.  Anyone know of a fundy kollege that is growing?  BJ, HAC, PCC, et al are all shrinking and having major financial problems.  All of them are pretty much in the same boat as TTU............................. sinking.  The crazy managawd/legalistic rules just don't work any more.  There are too many viable alternatives when it comes to a good Christian education.  RIP

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Here's a different take:

Lee Roberson stated (in summary) that the school fell apart because he hired talent and academia rather than people who were more in line with his spiritual persuasion.  As these influences became more vocal, the church began to change.  The church voted Roberson out as pastor in the 80's and joined the SBC shortly after his death.  Today, the church is a shell of what it was, the college is gone, the buildings are closed.  Not sure if it is worth pointing out, but the city's demographics changed over the course of 70 years also.

Jack Hyles tried doing the opposite.  He hired people without academia and talent who were exactly in line with his persuasions.  What you did was valued well beyond what you know.  We we see the result.  A loyalist army who have stopped discovering truth for themselves, to be commanded by their ministry leader.  Sin prevailed and power and prestige was the ultimate goal.  The college is dwindling fast and many on the inside have contemplated shutting it down for a several years.  Maybe the church will still survive with the "new" direction of the new pastor.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Pretty easy................................... legalism.  They tried to turn the ship around after it was already 2/3 underwater.  Anyone know of a fundy kollege that is growing?  BJ, HAC, PCC, et al are all shrinking and having major financial problems.  All of them are pretty much in the same boat as TTU............................. sinking.  The crazy managawd/legalistic rules just don't work any more.  There are too many viable alternatives when it comes to a good Christian education.  RIP

With the great number of fundy colleges that have sprung up in the last 15 years, there are some that are growing.  Of course, going from 15 to 150 would then be considered growth.  There seems to be four on the horizon that would fit your request:

Crown College
Commonwealth Baptist College
Heartland Baptist College
West Coast Baptist College

 

[praise_yeshua]

Pretty easy................................... legalism.  They tried to turn the ship around after it was already 2/3 underwater.  Anyone know of a fundy kollege that is growing?  BJ, HAC, PCC, et al are all shrinking and having major financial problems.  All of them are pretty much in the same boat as TTU............................. sinking.  The crazy managawd/legalistic rules just don't work any more.  There are too many viable alternatives when it comes to a good Christian education.  RIP

With the great number of fundy colleges that have sprung up in the last 15 years, there are some that are growing.  Of course, going from 15 to 150 would then be considered growth.  There seems to be four on the horizon that would fit your request:

Crown College
Commonwealth Baptist College
Heartland Baptist College
West Coast Baptist College

There's an easier explanation!

Fundamental colleges are more centered around the leader than anything else. When the leader moves on or gets out..... they go down rather quickly. Its hero worship.

I have very little doubt the four colleges you mentioned will fade from the scene as their leaders move on or get out.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Pretty easy................................... legalism.  They tried to turn the ship around after it was already 2/3 underwater.  Anyone know of a fundy kollege that is growing?  BJ, HAC, PCC, et al are all shrinking and having major financial problems.  All of them are pretty much in the same boat as TTU............................. sinking.  The crazy managawd/legalistic rules just don't work any more.  There are too many viable alternatives when it comes to a good Christian education.  RIP

With the great number of fundy colleges that have sprung up in the last 15 years, there are some that are growing.  Of course, going from 15 to 150 would then be considered growth.  There seems to be four on the horizon that would fit your request:

Crown College
Commonwealth Baptist College
Heartland Baptist College
West Coast Baptist College

There's an easier explanation!

Fundamental colleges are more centered around the leader than anything else. When the leader moves on or gets out..... they go down rather quickly. Its hero worship.

I have very little doubt the four colleges you mentioned will fade from the scene as their leaders move on or get out.

Agreed.  Then some other up-and-comer will start another little college and the cycle will repeat.

These schools are built on the notion of becoming like the leader.  It is the goal of each of the students and the pastors who send them there.  But, then again, isn't that the goal of secular universities?  People choose their school based upon what that school will make them.  At State U, you will become a great engineer, surgeon, nurse, historian, etc.  At Fundy College, you will become like the leader.

 

[Jubal Sackett]

I don't know if the changing demographics of Chattanooga had much to do with it.  Most college students, especially students at  a private college, aren't from the immediate area. The big question is could you get a job that allowed you to support yourself and your family upon graduation.  You can at both Shorter and Lee.

Joseph is on a full athletic and academic ride. He was heavily recruited by Shorter, Lee, Covenant (Presby school up on Lookout Mtn) and Cumberland. The money and the school's rep made a difference with us.

Jubal Sackett

 

[Just John]

It seems to me TTU couldn't decide what it wanted to be for too long. Did they want to quit being a Bob Jones type of fundamentalist school or did they want to loosen up. During this time Liberty was taking the "loosening up" route and many students from the same type conservative churches and schools  wanting a theologically conservative Christian college experience with less legalism  had few options among colleges considered "fundamentalist". Several years later TTU goes all in but Liberty had become by then the established conservative, Evangelical university with more students, facilities, majors, etc.

 

[Jubal Sackett]

It seems to me TTU couldn't decide what it wanted to be for too long. Did they want to quit being a Bob Jones type of fundamentalist school or did they want to loosen up. During this time Liberty was taking the "loosening up" route and many students from the same type conservative churches and schools  wanting a theologically conservative Christian college experience with less legalism  had few options among colleges considered "fundamentalist". Several years later TTU goes all in but Liberty had become by then the established conservative, Evangelical university with more students, facilities, majors, etc.

Liberty. again a school where you can actually get a job when you get out.

Liberty also stayed relevant by adding degrees and programs. They set out to compete in the real world and did it.

Jubal Sackett

 

[bruinboy]

It seems to me TTU couldn't decide what it wanted to be for too long. Did they want to quit being a Bob Jones type of fundamentalist school or did they want to loosen up. During this time Liberty was taking the "loosening up" route and many students from the same type conservative churches and schools  wanting a theologically conservative Christian college experience with less legalism  had few options among colleges considered "fundamentalist". Several years later TTU goes all in but Liberty had become by then the established conservative, Evangelical university with more students, facilities, majors, etc.

Liberty. again a school where you can actually get a job when you get out.

Liberty also stayed relevant by adding degrees and programs. They set out to compete in the real world and did it.

Jubal Sackett

Liberty is unique in that they are not leader-centrist. In addition, you can get a real accredited education there, not a piece of paper with zero value. 

 

[Jubal Sackett]

Liberty is unique in that they are not leader-centrist. In addition, you can get a real accredited education there, not a piece of paper with zero value.
[/quote]

I think that was the key. Liberty made itself marketable in the real world. The work world has become too complicated and specialized a place for an un accredited degree from Glory U to be worth the costs. Even growing up in TN I don't recall hearing a lot about TTU growing up. Of course, our rev was a BJU grad and BJU was Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard and Yale all rolled into one. I remember him having apopletic fit when I was about 14 when I replied that I was thinking about going to William and Mary to his inquiry concerning my college plans.

Jubal Sackett

 

[Binaca Chugger]

We are getting into another debate.  Is the goal of the Baptist college to equip people for a secular career, or ministry? 

If the goal is career, Liberty and the like are doing okay (They are nowhere near the education level of state U or Ivy League).  If someone chooses to go to Liberty for a secular career, they will ask what the graduates are doing and what the leaders at the school have accomplished in that field, knowing that they will become like their teachers.  I live in a university town.  The television often advertises their teachers and what they have accomplished and how they are #1 in some research field.  Those accolades are very important in the recruiting of good students and the success of the university.

At the fundy college, students attend because they have a desire to go into a ministry like that school and become like the leadership of the school in their own personal ministry.  I am not so sure that this is very different from state U.  The difference is probably the size of the school.  Fundy schools are very small and often can only point to one or two people that the students should seek to become.  Once those leaders fizzle, die, or go to jail, the school is history.

Once Lee Roberson was voted out, the school's fate was sealed.  Those academiacs who sought to get rid of the man focused on the Gospel and the fundamentals were not strong enough to draw students who wanted to be like them.  They tried fitting various molds to attract various students, but they changed what the goal of the school was and therefore withdrew themselves from the students they had previously recruited.  Not many students want to become someone who does not know what they want to become.  With a lack of students, financial issues follow and the school closed.

 

[biscuit1953]

I moved to Chattanooga in 1967 as a freshman in high school.  I had never heard of Lee Roberson but I do know that the students at that time had a good reputation of living right and even though many here may differ on the methods of evangelism, Dr. Roberson inspired many to witness door to door and they were not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.  It was through the influence of a Temple graduate that I came to know salvation in 1971.  When I entered the work force before joining the military and after I had a break in service in 1975/76 everyone could tell a Temple student in the workplace by their conduct and dress.

The ones on this forum who never lived during the 50's and 60's don't understand that the change in dress and behavior can be called nothing less than a revolution especially in the Bible belt.  I started first grade in 1959 and until the last couple of years of high school girls always wore skirts or dresses to school and the boys were required to dress in a certain manner even in the public schools.  In the elementary school I attended where I grew up they had a policy that the girls could wear pants under their dresses in the winter time when the temperature dropped below freezing.  It was unheard of for girls to wear pants to school at that time.

The only thing Dr. Roberson was guilty of was not being able to change with the times on matters that didn't violate modesty as far as dress and conduct which was becoming radically different from the time he was a young man.  I have never considered Dr. Roberson to be in the same category as Jack Hyles because Lee Roberson was a very humble man and was a contrast to others in the militant fundamentalist movement.  My wife started Tennessee Temple in 1977 and I met her when I got out of the Marine Corps in 1979 (I never met my wife until 1981).  Until a couple of years ago she wouldn't be caught dead in a pair of pants suit or trousers in public.  That was the way she was taught and it was hard for her to break that mold.

If we could go back a couple of generations the people living at that time would have had a heart attack if thrust overnight in the society we now live in.  I don't fully understand how Tennessee Temple died like it did but I will always have a great respect for Dr. Lee Roberson. 

 

[Walt]

I moved to Chattanooga in 1967 as a freshman in high school.  I had never heard of Lee Roberson but I do know that the students at that time had a good reputation of living right and even though many here may differ on the methods of evangelism, Dr. Roberson inspired many to witness door to door and they were not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.  It was through the influence of a Temple graduate that I came to know salvation in 1971.  When I entered the work force before joining the military and after I had a break in service in 1975/76 everyone could tell a Temple student in the workplace by their conduct and dress.

The ones on this forum who never lived during the 50's and 60's don't understand that the change in dress and behavior can be called nothing less than a revolution especially in the Bible belt.  I started first grade in 1959 and until the last couple of years of high school girls always wore skirts or dresses to school and the boys were required to dress in a certain manner even in the public schools.  In the elementary school I attended where I grew up they had a policy that the girls could wear pants under their dresses in the winter time when the temperature dropped below freezing.  It was unheard of for girls to wear pants to school at that time.

The only thing Dr. Roberson was guilty of was not being able to change with the times on matters that didn't violate modesty as far as dress and conduct which was becoming radically different from the time he was a young man.  I have never considered Dr. Roberson to be in the same category as Jack Hyles because Lee Roberson was a very humble man and was a contrast to others in the militant fundamentalist movement.  My wife started Tennessee Temple in 1977 and I met her when I got out of the Marine Corps in 1979 (I never met my wife until 1981).  Until a couple of years ago she wouldn't be caught dead in a pair of pants suit or trousers in public.  That was the way she was taught and it was hard for her to break that mold.

If we could go back a couple of generations the people living at that time would have had a heart attack if thrust overnight in the society we now live in.  I don't fully understand how Tennessee Temple died like it did but I will always have a great respect for Dr. Lee Roberson.

I, too, have respect for Dr Lee Roberson.  He was a man of integrity; there was never a hint of either moral of financial scandals. The school emphasized having a heart for God and seeking after true godliness, not just measuring people's spirituality by "standards".

However, the respect I have for him does not blind me to some of the errors he made in his ministry (in summary, the "never point out errors"; be positive; never criticize the preacher; shallow Bible preaching; emphasis on "success", which was equated to big numbers; they "magic prayer" salvation, in which people who muttered or repeated a prayer are considered "saved", even though there is no change at all in their life).

 

[samspade]

Here's a different take:

Lee Roberson stated (in summary) that the school fell apart because he hired talent and academia rather than people who were more in line with his spiritual persuasion.  As these influences became more vocal, the church began to change.  The church voted Roberson out as pastor in the 80's and joined the SBC shortly after his death.

One correction: Highland Park didn't vote Dr. Roberson out. He resigned and became Pastor Emeritus.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[biscuit1953]

Posted by: Walt
? on: Today at 09:02:29 AM ?
"However, the respect I have for him does not blind me to some of the errors he made in his ministry (in summary, the "never point out errors"; be positive; never criticize the preacher; shallow Bible preaching; emphasis on "success", which was equated to big numbers; they "magic prayer" salvation, in which people who muttered or repeated a prayer are considered "saved", even though there is no change at all in their life)."

You make some excellent points and are right on target concerning the "repeat after me" evangelism.  In between my break in service (1975/76) I attended a church that was filled with Temple graduates and was greatly disturbed by their emphasis on counting how many people they got to say a prayer as part of their "converts."

One person who was teaching me how to "soul win" knocked on a door and there was nothing but children screaming and the lady obviously had no interest in what we were saying so the one discipling me asked the lady if he could pray before we went on.  He immediately started into a "sinner's prayer" but after he finished and open his eyes to see if she would repeat the prayer for salvation, she had simply left and there was no one behind the screen door and us standing outside.  He looked at me and said some people just didn't want to get saved.  That kind of "evangelism" was very common but I don't know if Lee Roberson knew exactly how shallow some of the students were.  I never heard a sermon by Lee Roberson that he didn't emphasize that salvation comes by "repentance and faith" in Jesus Christ.  I'm convinced there were many false converts but I believe whatever flaws he had his heart was in the right place.

 

[biscuit1953]

My wife told me about a humorous incident that took place in a student chapel meeting back in the 70's.  Dr. Faulkner would read various announcements that were handed to him and there might be several.  Some students thought Dr. Cliff Robinson looked like George Reeves so a student somehow slipped a note in that got to Dr. Faulkner who was simply reading what was handed to him without realizing what it said.  One such note read, "Anyone interested in missionary aviation evangelism please meet with Clark Kent by the phone booth after the service."  Dr. Faulkner didn't see the humor in that but got mad and wished God would break the arm or leg of whoever did that.  Pretty funny.

 

[no value]

I've enjoyed reading all the posts. I'd like to chime in about an issue involving some (notice I said SOME and not ALL) IFB colleges.

Its been my misfortune to encounter a number of good people in churches pastored by men MARGINALLY educated in some of these theologically-shallow colleges. These men have the diploma hanging on their office wall but listen to the the content of their preaching/teaching is a in a word...SHALLOW.

I know...I sat under a HAC-grad pastor whose preaching/teaching was extremely shallow. And to question or challenge anything he said "from the pulpit" was not tolerated. It was only after I went to seminary did I realize how theologically and biblically-shallow this guy was/is.

I'm not suggesting that a pastor exegete the scriptures over the people's heads. But to discourage independent study in fear that a congregant might be smarter than the man-of-God is a pathetic excuse for the pastor's own lack of character.

I served on a deacon board years ago with a gentleman whose two children were HAC grads. Good man, but he was of the mindset that every problem on earth could be solved by "just knoocking on doors." Typical HAC-philosophy - A Mile Wide and an Inch Deep.

Stepping off my soap box now.

 

[BALAAM]

Here is another take:
I think that by and large people in ifb circles tend to ignore the fallout from the recession. A guy could grow up in fbch all his life, go to hac, get a job in an ifb school or ministry and pretty much go from cradle to grave working and living inside the ifb bubble. And, that was the model that I came to believe was the best.

Seven or eight years ago, most ifb (and other) churches and schools began having major financial difficulties and many of these guy started to find that their degrees were only of much value iinside the ifb world. I know of at least half a dozen that taught school for years and thought they could get on in another public school and they were sadly mistaken.

By the way, the recession is still having a major impact on me because I work directly in the residential construction business. So, maybe I see things in a little different light than the rest.

 

[no value]

Here is another take:
I think that by and large people in ifb circles tend to ignore the fallout from the recession. A guy could grow up in fbch all his life, go to hac, get a job in an ifb school or ministry and pretty much go from cradle to grave working and living inside the ifb bubble. And, that was the model that I came to believe was the best.

Seven or eight years ago, most ifb (and other) churches and schools began having major financial difficulties and many of these guy started to find that their degrees were only of much value iinside the ifb world. I know of at least half a dozen that taught school for years and thought they could get on in another public school and they were sadly mistaken.

By the way, the recession is still having a major impact on me because I work directly in the residential construction business. So, maybe I see things in a little different light than the rest.

Well said. Amen.