TN Temple's demise

[Binaca Chugger]

Here's a different take:

Lee Roberson stated (in summary) that the school fell apart because he hired talent and academia rather than people who were more in line with his spiritual persuasion.  As these influences became more vocal, the church began to change.  The church voted Roberson out as pastor in the 80's and joined the SBC shortly after his death.

One correction: Highland Park didn't vote Dr. Roberson out. He resigned and became Pastor Emeritus.


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I believe you are officially correct.  The official records will show your statement to be correct.  However, those who were close to Dr. Roberson, those who served in leadership roles with him for over 30 years, knew what really happened.  Dr. Roberson was pushed out of the church by the people he hired.  They believed he was too old and they were too smart.  So, they twisted his arm and caused dissension until he stepped down.  They got their man in charge.  He expanded the platform, to reduce the size of the auditorium by roughly 1/3 and still could not keep it filled.  The church just kept dwindling.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I moved to Chattanooga in 1967 as a freshman in high school.  I had never heard of Lee Roberson but I do know that the students at that time had a good reputation of living right and even though many here may differ on the methods of evangelism, Dr. Roberson inspired many to witness door to door and they were not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.  It was through the influence of a Temple graduate that I came to know salvation in 1971.  When I entered the work force before joining the military and after I had a break in service in 1975/76 everyone could tell a Temple student in the workplace by their conduct and dress.

The ones on this forum who never lived during the 50's and 60's don't understand that the change in dress and behavior can be called nothing less than a revolution especially in the Bible belt.  I started first grade in 1959 and until the last couple of years of high school girls always wore skirts or dresses to school and the boys were required to dress in a certain manner even in the public schools.  In the elementary school I attended where I grew up they had a policy that the girls could wear pants under their dresses in the winter time when the temperature dropped below freezing.  It was unheard of for girls to wear pants to school at that time.

The only thing Dr. Roberson was guilty of was not being able to change with the times on matters that didn't violate modesty as far as dress and conduct which was becoming radically different from the time he was a young man.  I have never considered Dr. Roberson to be in the same category as Jack Hyles because Lee Roberson was a very humble man and was a contrast to others in the militant fundamentalist movement.  My wife started Tennessee Temple in 1977 and I met her when I got out of the Marine Corps in 1979 (I never met my wife until 1981).  Until a couple of years ago she wouldn't be caught dead in a pair of pants suit or trousers in public.  That was the way she was taught and it was hard for her to break that mold.

If we could go back a couple of generations the people living at that time would have had a heart attack if thrust overnight in the society we now live in.  I don't fully understand how Tennessee Temple died like it did but I will always have a great respect for Dr. Lee Roberson.

I, too, have respect for Dr Lee Roberson.  He was a man of integrity; there was never a hint of either moral of financial scandals. The school emphasized having a heart for God and seeking after true godliness, not just measuring people's spirituality by "standards".

However, the respect I have for him does not blind me to some of the errors he made in his ministry (in summary, the "never point out errors"; be positive; never criticize the preacher; shallow Bible preaching; emphasis on "success", which was equated to big numbers; they "magic prayer" salvation, in which people who muttered or repeated a prayer are considered "saved", even though there is no change at all in their life).

There may have been some of the "magic prayer" routine, but I think that system really developed at HAC.  Say what you will, the fruit remains.  Just try to find a burrow in Chattanooga that does not have a church that is affiliated with the old chapels of Highland Park.  The fruit has remained for three, now four, generations.

 

[4everfsu]

The reason for why Liberty is where it is at and where Tennessee Temple is, is because of leadership and vision. I attended LBC in 1972, its 2nd year and from the chapel services and church services Jerry Falwell goal was to build a university not a bible college. The majors at the time were in line with a bible college but that was easier to start with and first building block was to get the college accredited as soon as possible and then build for university status. Jerry Jr has carried on his father's goal. Now Lee Robertson goal was a christian college basically for turning out preachers, teachers, musicians, etc. He had no vision beyond that goal is seems.

 

[rsc2a]

...the church began to change.  The church voted Roberson out as pastor in the 80's and joined the SBC shortly after his death....

Sounds like congregationalism to me.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

...the church began to change.  The church voted Roberson out as pastor in the 80's and joined the SBC shortly after his death....

Sounds like congregationalism to me.

Congregationalism is not really at all what happened.  More like the church was hijacked.

 

[rsc2a]

...the church began to change.  The church voted Roberson out as pastor in the 80's and joined the SBC shortly after his death....

Sounds like congregationalism to me.

Congregationalism is not really at all what happened.  More like the church was hijacked.

You say tomato...

 

[praise_yeshua]

...the church began to change.  The church voted Roberson out as pastor in the 80's and joined the SBC shortly after his death....

Sounds like congregationalism to me.

Congregationalism is not really at all what happened.  More like the church was hijacked.

I've heard that tale before. Roberson was more of an SBC than he ever was a IFB.

 

[Walt]

Posted by: Walt
? on: Today at 09:02:29 AM ?
"However, the respect I have for him does not blind me to some of the errors he made in his ministry (in summary, the "never point out errors"; be positive; never criticize the preacher; shallow Bible preaching; emphasis on "success", which was equated to big numbers; they "magic prayer" salvation, in which people who muttered or repeated a prayer are considered "saved", even though there is no change at all in their life)."

You make some excellent points and are right on target concerning the "repeat after me" evangelism.  In between my break in service (1975/76) I attended a church that was filled with Temple graduates and was greatly disturbed by their emphasis on counting how many people they got to say a prayer as part of their "converts."

One person who was teaching me how to "soul win" knocked on a door and there was nothing but children screaming and the lady obviously had no interest in what we were saying so the one discipling me asked the lady if he could pray before we went on.  He immediately started into a "sinner's prayer" but after he finished and open his eyes to see if she would repeat the prayer for salvation, she had simply left and there was no one behind the screen door and us standing outside.  He looked at me and said some people just didn't want to get saved.  That kind of "evangelism" was very common but I don't know if Lee Roberson knew exactly how shallow some of the students were.  I never heard a sermon by Lee Roberson that he didn't emphasize that salvation comes by "repentance and faith" in Jesus Christ.  I'm convinced there were many false converts but I believe whatever flaws he had his heart was in the right place.

I'm sure that Lee Roberson would be very unhappy to hear about what was being done; the issue is not so much that he emphasized this unscriptural method, but that he and the TTU leadership emphasized big numbers and results... this drove people to this method, because it "worked" (as far as large numbers, and the ones with large numbers were honored).

Rabbit trail: it is highly improper to give awards for the number of souls that someone wins. The Biblical truth is that three things are necessary for a soul to be saved: (1) a witness to the truth (our responsibility), (2) Conviction (the Holy Spirit's responsibility), and (3) Repentance and faith in Jesus Christ (the sinnner's responsibility). Why award people for results over which they have no control?  Better to award them for what is their responsibility.  Such awards have pushed people to the 1-2-3 pray after me because it is quick, and they can increase their numbers.

In my opinion, pragmatism ("it works") is hurting IFB churches; we are accepting more and more ideas blindly because "it works".  If we stand by the Bible as our standard of faith & practice, then the Bible should be what we judge things by, not by whether they "work" or not.

I'm reminded of Noah, who preached for 120 years with no converts (terrible results; most IFB churches would have dropped him after a year or two) and Jonah, who preached for a day or two and saw a huge city saved.  Yet, in God's honor roll of faith, it was Noah, the man with no results that was honored.  Jonah, the man with great numbers, is not mentioned.

 

[Walt]

I've enjoyed reading all the posts. I'd like to chime in about an issue involving some (notice I said SOME and not ALL) IFB colleges.

Its been my misfortune to encounter a number of good people in churches pastored by men MARGINALLY educated in some of these theologically-shallow colleges. These men have the diploma hanging on their office wall but listen to the the content of their preaching/teaching is a in a word...SHALLOW.

I know...I sat under a HAC-grad pastor whose preaching/teaching was extremely shallow. And to question or challenge anything he said "from the pulpit" was not tolerated. It was only after I went to seminary did I realize how theologically and biblically-shallow this guy was/is.

I'm not suggesting that a pastor exegete the scriptures over the people's heads. But to discourage independent study in fear that a congregant might be smarter than the man-of-God is a pathetic excuse for the pastor's own lack of character.

I served on a deacon board years ago with a gentleman whose two children were HAC grads. Good man, but he was of the mindset that every problem on earth could be solved by "just knocking on doors." Typical HAC-philosophy - A Mile Wide and an Inch Deep.

Stepping off my soap box now.

Excellent.

Some men have ego problems and really are not fit to be pastors; they don't really want a congregation that is learned in the Scriptures because they might question the leader's decisions when they are not based on the Bible.

My experience with a HAC grad church was much like yours; the pastor's word was a commandment, and he could not be questioned. What he wanted to do was always what God wanted us to do, because the pastor had "prayed about it".  Votes were always unanimous because no one would dare vote against the pastor's recommendation.

Tom Brennan points out that Jack Hyles had known many Bible Scholars that had never witnessed to anyone for decades, and he (JH) aimed in the other direction, and generally despised scholarship.

 

[Walt]

Here is another take:
I think that by and large people in ifb circles tend to ignore the fallout from the recession. A guy could grow up in fbch all his life, go to hac, get a job in an ifb school or ministry and pretty much go from cradle to grave working and living inside the ifb bubble. And, that was the model that I came to believe was the best.

Seven or eight years ago, most ifb (and other) churches and schools began having major financial difficulties and many of these guy started to find that their degrees were only of much value iinside the ifb world. I know of at least half a dozen that taught school for years and thought they could get on in another public school and they were sadly mistaken.

By the way, the recession is still having a major impact on me because I work directly in the residential construction business. So, maybe I see things in a little different light than the rest.

One of the reasons that the degrees were/are of little worth is that in IFB circles, the degree was irrelevant; what mattered was the "master" under whom you studied.  If you studied under Jack Hyles, that was highly accepted everywhere that honored Him.  Ditto for Lee Roberson, etc.  I even know a HAC grad that insisted his degree was from Jack Hyles, not Hyles-Anderson College.

 

[Walt]

I moved to Chattanooga in 1967 as a freshman in high school.  I had never heard of Lee Roberson but I do know that the students at that time had a good reputation of living right and even though many here may differ on the methods of evangelism, Dr. Roberson inspired many to witness door to door and they were not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.  It was through the influence of a Temple graduate that I came to know salvation in 1971.  When I entered the work force before joining the military and after I had a break in service in 1975/76 everyone could tell a Temple student in the workplace by their conduct and dress.

The ones on this forum who never lived during the 50's and 60's don't understand that the change in dress and behavior can be called nothing less than a revolution especially in the Bible belt.  I started first grade in 1959 and until the last couple of years of high school girls always wore skirts or dresses to school and the boys were required to dress in a certain manner even in the public schools.  In the elementary school I attended where I grew up they had a policy that the girls could wear pants under their dresses in the winter time when the temperature dropped below freezing.  It was unheard of for girls to wear pants to school at that time.

The only thing Dr. Roberson was guilty of was not being able to change with the times on matters that didn't violate modesty as far as dress and conduct which was becoming radically different from the time he was a young man.  I have never considered Dr. Roberson to be in the same category as Jack Hyles because Lee Roberson was a very humble man and was a contrast to others in the militant fundamentalist movement.  My wife started Tennessee Temple in 1977 and I met her when I got out of the Marine Corps in 1979 (I never met my wife until 1981).  Until a couple of years ago she wouldn't be caught dead in a pair of pants suit or trousers in public.  That was the way she was taught and it was hard for her to break that mold.

If we could go back a couple of generations the people living at that time would have had a heart attack if thrust overnight in the society we now live in.  I don't fully understand how Tennessee Temple died like it did but I will always have a great respect for Dr. Lee Roberson.

I, too, have respect for Dr Lee Roberson.  He was a man of integrity; there was never a hint of either moral of financial scandals. The school emphasized having a heart for God and seeking after true godliness, not just measuring people's spirituality by "standards".

However, the respect I have for him does not blind me to some of the errors he made in his ministry (in summary, the "never point out errors"; be positive; never criticize the preacher; shallow Bible preaching; emphasis on "success", which was equated to big numbers; they "magic prayer" salvation, in which people who muttered or repeated a prayer are considered "saved", even though there is no change at all in their life).

There may have been some of the "magic prayer" routine, but I think that system really developed at HAC.  Say what you will, the fruit remains.  Just try to find a burrow in Chattanooga that does not have a church that is affiliated with the old chapels of Highland Park.  The fruit has remained for three, now four, generations.

I'll agree with you that Hyles & HAC were the pastors at the "magic prayer"; however, this unscriptural method was essentially forced on people by Lee Roberson himself.  A former staff member stated: He
expected you [staff members] to have someone saved, down the aisle and baptized every service.  Everyone was expected to have results; the Biblical truth is that we can spend as much time as we like preaching the gospel, but no one can guarantee results.  As I've said elsewhere in this topic, the Holy Spirit must convict the sinner, and the sinner must repent and place his faith in Jesus Christ.  We can try to use manipulation or psychological tactics to overcome this, but it isn't a genuine salvation without the Holy Spirit and the sinner actually involved.

I'm not saying that no one was saved there - just that the pressure for results was a fault of Lee Roberson.  One man has said that although Lee Roberson held the position of pastor, he was really an evangelist, and HPBC was more of an evangelism center than a true New Testament church.

 

[coverbd]

Pretty easy................................... legalism. They tried to turn the ship around after it was already 2/3 underwater. Anyone know of a fundy kollege that is growing? BJ, HAC, PCC, et al are all shrinking and having major financial problems. All of them are pretty much in the same boat as TTU............................. sinking. The crazy managawd/legalistic rules just don't work any more. There are too many viable alternatives when it comes to a good Christian education. RIP

I attended the TTU prison for 1 year during the 70's. It was like a Shawshank Redemption experience for me. Ayatollah Lee Roberson and warden Cliff Robinson gave legalism, hypocrisy and adultery a new meaning. The people there worshipped these men like their were gods. The same time warden Cliff Robinson was throwing my sister out of the university for being off campus without a chaperone warden Cliff was screwing Ayatollah Lee Roberson's secretary for 15 years. The corruption at these so called fundamentalist christian colleges knows no limit. Civil rights were violated against students in the name of religion and legalism.
I firmly believe all the flavors of Baptists are cults and are corrupt to the core. The SBC sexually abusing over 700 people. The Liberty University Falwell scandal says it all. These colleges, universities and their churches are dying on the vine. RIP

 

[coverbd]

I believe you are officially correct. The official records will show your statement to be correct. However, those who were close to Dr. Roberson, those who served in leadership roles with him for over 30 years, knew what really happened. Dr. Roberson was pushed out of the church by the people he hired. They believed he was too old and they were too smart. So, they twisted his arm and caused dissension until he stepped down. They got their man in charge. He expanded the platform, to reduce the size of the auditorium by roughly 1/3 and still could not keep it filled. The church just kept dwindling.

This is nothing but a cult regime change at Tennessee Temple University. They needed a new Ayatollah! I really think people were starting to see through this cult. Cults and phony preachers have a certain shelf life.

 

[coverbd]

I'll agree with you that Hyles & HAC were the pastors at the "magic prayer"; however, this unscriptural method was essentially forced on people by Lee Roberson himself. A former staff member stated: He
expected you [staff members] to have someone saved, down the aisle and baptized every service. Everyone was expected to have results; the Biblical truth is that we can spend as much time as we like preaching the gospel, but no one can guarantee results. As I've said elsewhere in this topic, the Holy Spirit must convict the sinner, and the sinner must repent and place his faith in Jesus Christ. We can try to use manipulation or psychological tactics to overcome this, but it isn't a genuine salvation without the Holy Spirit and the sinner actually involved.

I'm not saying that no one was saved there - just that the pressure for results was a fault of Lee Roberson. One man has said that although Lee Roberson held the position of pastor, he was really an evangelist, and HPBC was more of an evangelism center than a true New Testament church.

No it was a cult!!

 

[coverbd]

The reason for why Liberty is where it is at and where Tennessee Temple is, is because of leadership and vision. I attended LBC in 1972, its 2nd year and from the chapel services and church services Jerry Falwell goal was to build a university not a bible college. The majors at the time were in line with a bible college but that was easier to start with and first building block was to get the college accredited as soon as possible and then build for university status. Jerry Jr has carried on his father's goal. Now Lee Robertson goal was a christian college basically for turning out preachers, teachers, musicians, etc. He had no vision beyond that goal is seems.

Ayatollah Roberson was trying to turn out cult leaders! If you didn't bend the knee or kiss his ring you were gone and considered a pagan.