Tom Brennan Hitting It Hard....

Tarheel Baptist said:
ALAYMAN said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
The latest installment...there is no there, there...no substance to their arguments.

https://concerningjesus.blogspot.com/2019/02/

Trusting in the sufficiency of the Spirit and the word rather than an overemphasis on methodology and capitulation to cultural norms seems substantive to me.

Again, we all may disagree over how that gets fleshed out in practice (Bible versions, holiness "standards", etc), but the bulk of his plea is a focus on trusting God more (prayer, preaching, ministry) and  methods less.  What specifically did you read that differs in its message than that?

No, the bulk of his plea is to use his/their God appointed methods.
Period.
Because, you can't "trust God more (prayer, preaching, ministry)" if you don't use their approved methods!
That's what I read because that's what they wrote.

Could you point to an excerpt from that most recent post that mentions the only approved methods they authorize?

Keep in mind, I'm not denying that there are plenty of old-time IFB churches that do fit the caricature you are trying to paint, but I'm not sure you should lump all conservative IFBers in the same boat, and I'm specifically stating that from what I am reading in the links you provide (with one exception) they are explicitly NOT denying that differing methods alone are not the culprit.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Twisted said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
The latest installment...there is no there, there...no substance to their arguments.

https://concerningjesus.blogspot.com/2019/02/

Great article.

"Go thou and do likewise"

"Go thou and do EXACTLY what we deem to be approved, Godly methods".
If you don't do it their way, you don't trust God enough and you have no spiritual power.  ;)

No, silly.  Go write an article.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
ALAYMAN said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
The latest installment...there is no there, there...no substance to their arguments.

https://concerningjesus.blogspot.com/2019/02/

Trusting in the sufficiency of the Spirit and the word rather than an overemphasis on methodology and capitulation to cultural norms seems substantive to me.

Again, we all may disagree over how that gets fleshed out in practice (Bible versions, holiness "standards", etc), but the bulk of his plea is a focus on trusting God more (prayer, preaching, ministry) and  methods less.  What specifically did you read that differs in its message than that?

No, the bulk of his plea is to use his/their God appointed methods.
Period.
Because, you can't "trust God more (prayer, preaching, ministry)" if you don't use their approved methods!
That's what I read because that's what they wrote.

Could you point to an excerpt from that most recent post that mentions the only approved methods they authorize?

Keep in mind, I'm not denying that there are plenty of old-time IFB churches that do fit the caricature you are trying to paint, but I'm not sure you should lump all conservative IFBers in the same boat, and I'm specifically stating that from what I am reading in the links you provide (with one exception) they are explicitly NOT denying that differing methods alone are not the culprit.
Are you being obtuse?!  :)
The entire series is based on the assumption that the 'neo-IFB's' use 'improper methods' and therfore don't believe in or effective utilize the power of the gospel.
That is THE point of this series. They state as much, mentioning Josh Teis' by name.
It is pretty tricky to say that you aren't doing something while you are in the act of doing it...


Take the time to read the posts and the comments...I'm obviously not the only one who reads the posts with comprehension.
With your 'understanding' of the posts, maybe Tom will let you write an installment.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Are you being obtuse?!  :)

Ratboy is gone, somebody has to fill the void. ;)

TB said:
The entire series is based on the assumption that the 'neo-IFB's' use 'improper methods' and therfore don't believe in or effective utilize the power of the gospel.

I just asked for you to provide a quote so we could know specifically what you object to.  Just one?

TB said:
That is THE point of this series. They state as much, mentioning Josh Teis' by name.
It is pretty tricky to say that you aren't doing something while you are in the act of doing it...


Take the time to read the posts and the comments...I'm obviously not the only one who reads the posts with comprehension.
With your 'understanding' of the posts, maybe Tom will let you write an installment.

Okay, here's an exchange from the comments....

Jay--
" It's like saying that when I knock doors I'm only relying on the tract and not the power of God. Terrible argument."

Tom Brennan--
Jay, I agree that would be a terrible argument. I disagree that is the argument he is making.

If the basic substance what I am doing/becoming/emphasizing in my ministry is getting better at making tracts, at making them attractive, at getting people to notice them, at marketing them to certain demographics, at adjusting them in order to be appealing, and at why the rest of the IFB world needs to do the same or die then it could well be said that I have left behind the power of God.

Tom explicitly makes his claim that it's not methods at the heart of the argument, but philosophy of ministry ("marketing to demographics", "making them attractive", etc).  There are other points made by the old guard guy(s) that also refute that this is purely about methods.
 
What?s the point? The point is that it is not new ideas, better technology, different lighting, modern trends, or a catchier beat from a cheap rendition of the latest song by Casting Crowns that we need. We need more of God! We need more of His power.

Methods. And, if you use those new fangeled methods, you have less of god and his power.


While they claim to be on a mission to return to what originally made the IFB church so powerful back in the day, they fail to recognize what activated such power. They have an emphasis in utilizing modern day tools and technology, social media, a trendier wardrobe, contemporary music, a more upbeat atmosphere, and a departure from almost anything that resembles ?the old paths? in order to reach today?s generation.

Methods. Get back to them-there old paths!




The problem is that none of this new stuff produces the power of God. These things only appeal to the flesh. An over-emphasis in things that only appeal to the flesh will result with a congregation full of fleshly, carnal, and superficial Christians who will now mistake worldliness for godliness. This stuff may produce quantity. What you won?t have is quality, the kind that God produces.

Methods.
As opposed to the old stuff that, evidently, DOES produce the power of God.


Whether they realize it or not, they are trying to revitalize the church with worldly, modern means rather than with the power of the Holy Spirit. Where does real Holy Ghost power come from? It certainly doesn?t come from dimmer lights (or brighter ones), TV screens, more upbeat music, less convictions (standards), etc.

Your methods depend on whether or not you have the 'power of God'.
New fangeled lights, TV screens, that thar upbeat music (unless it's suthren gospel), less convictions, won't give you Holy Spirit power like them old paths will.


Philosophy, shalosophy...it's all about the methods...and the KJV, no doubt.
IF you conclude differently, so be it...but that doesn't change my perception...or the majority of those who left comments.
FWIW, I am in a closed FB group with about 20 or so of IFB millennial Pastors, who also believe it to be about their music and their methods.

So, rather than continuing to point out the obvious on this thread I'm going to build a 'jail' in my auditorium and memorize the words to Give Me That Old Time Religion.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
... I'm going to build a 'jail' in my auditorium

What does that mean?
 
Twisted said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
... I'm going to build a 'jail' in my auditorium

What does that mean?

That references my earlier post on this thread:
And how does one define slick marketing...etc.
This comes from Tom, who not long ago had a churchwide Army Navy Campaign with a jail in the auditorium for the losing team captain. That might not be slick, but it?s marketing.

Again, I don?t care what Tom does or Josh Teis does or what you do...
 
Norefund said:
From the blog post: ?I feel for my generation. There is a pressure to be modern, a push to be more sensitive to the culture, and, yes, an insistence on lower standards.?

The article starts from the premise that anything other than traditional 1960?s church services, dress, etc. is lowered standards.

Because of that, I?m out.

One could assume that because that's what they continually say, but...
 
Tarheel, when I was a kid (and you're older than me, so that was a long time ago ya know :D) I can remember the whole piercings thing and crazy punk hair stuff.  This wasn't too far removed from when a coach would tell a player to cut his hair if he wanted to play for him.  My oldest brother (near your age, old ya know :D)  would see those folk and say to me (9 years younger than him) "see those weirdos?  They just want attention".  You could call their hairdos and chains running from their nose to their ears "methods" if you want, metaphorically speaking, but it was the philosophy that was behind the methods that my brother was pointing to (rebellion, intentional subculture, "look at me"). 

Secondly, the quote you excerpted about "standards" for instance, was removed from its context.  Everybody has standards of some kind, even you.  Granted, if they are saying "standards" make you more holy, or that "standards" are dresses and buzz-cuts, and there is a disproportionate emphasis on those externals juxtaposed to inner holiness then you do have a point.  But the emphasis I've seen continually from Tom is on the philosophy behind the methods, not as much the methods themselves.  Several writers have stressed this.  The notion, as I alluded to earlier in this thread (Macarthur, Piper, et al), that many conservative folk are leary of such philosophies aren't exclusive to old-school Hyles style IFBers, not by a long shot.  This is just ONE example (I could post many more but this is from a nonIFB, even a CALVINIST source :D----9MARKS) of such a concern...


2. A belief in total depravity ought to upend the tenets of attractionalism.

Again, it would be helpful to define our terms, especially since I?ve somewhat tipped my hand by attaching the spooky suffix ?-ism? to the relatively nonthreatening adjective ?attractional.? What are the ?tenets? of this so-called ideology?

A few come to mind:
?Churches committed to attractionalism tend to not push people away. The goal is to keep the fence around the church low, to keep the door to the church open and unlocked, so that all people can come in to enjoy the fellowship of the church without the requirements of membership.
?Churches committed to attractionalism seek to curry favor among outsiders by highlighting how similar their members are to the world, whereas the Bible ties the church?s attractiveness to its distinctness from the world (Mt. 5:16, 1 Pet. 2:12). This commitment to similarity is why so much modern worship music resembles a run-of-the-mill arena show. It?s why so many churches do sermon series on movies or parenting or marriage or money management?such interests are universal. It?s why a cottage industry of programs often flourish in attractional churches, turning them into a kind a religious service provider, built to meet certain needs of prospective members in the surrounding community. Such programs?food pantries, recovery groups for addicts, small groups for divorcees, ESL classes?are certainly not ?bad? in a vacuum, but when tethered to an attractional philosophy of ministry that sloppifies the line between the church and the world, they obscure the primary purpose of the church and in the process tend to do more spiritual harm than material good.
?Churches committed to attractionalism feature preaching that tends to focus on the benefits of the gospel?happiness, improved marriages and parenting, a clean conscience, peace of mind, etc.?at the expense of clear teaching on the gospel itself. If you go to a church for a month, and you never once hear the pastor talk about sin, the wrath of God, and Christ?s substitutionary death, then you?re likely sitting in a church swayed by the commitments of attractionalism. If you hear the pastor call people to ?trust in Jesus? but never to ?repent of sin,? then you?re likely sitting in a church swayed by the tenets of attractionalism.

Attractionalism is bad. Attracting unbelievers is good.

Every church should want to attract unbelievers. In fact, 1 Corinthians 11?14 assumes their presence in our gatherings. Every time a church gathers, unbelievers should not only be welcomed but directly addressed; it should be a ?safe place? for them, where their lifestyles will be challenged, not disrespected, where they?ll face confrontation, not prejudice.

Every church should desire to be attractive to the unsaved. We seek to be attractive by planning our gatherings with a concern for clarity and intelligibility (1 Cor. 11?14). We seek to be attractive by preaching sermons that offer connections to their worldview (Acts 17). We seek to be attractive by being hospitable (Heb. 13:2) and meeting needs (Matt. 25:35). We seek to be attractive by being men of sincerity, commissioned by God to speak of Christ with confidence that the knowledge of him will be a fragrance of life to some, and death to others (2 Cor. 2:14?17).

But attractionalism takes these fairly obvious and benign desires and turns them into the raison d??tre of the local church. Attractionalism shrinks the commands of Scripture. Attractionalism inverts the Great Commission, turning it into a command to get people to come to us?and then lops off the parts that require patience and longsuffering. Attractionalism indulgently prioritizes one biblical command?evangelism?at the expense of others?meaningful church membership and discipline.

The point is that the philosophy produces the methods, and the further entrenched into pragmatism and "attractionalism" a church goes, the more likely the end result is a distancing from the core of the gospel(even when they use the same familiar sounding words, as the Mormons are often guilty of).
 
ALAYMAN said:
Tarheel, when I was a kid (and you're older than me, so that was a long time ago ya know :D) I can remember the whole piercings thing and crazy punk hair stuff.  This wasn't too far removed from when a coach would tell a player to cut his hair if he wanted to play for him.  My oldest brother (near your age, old ya know :D)  would see those folk and say to me (9 years younger than him) "see those weirdos?  They just want attention".  You could call their hairdos and chains running from their nose to their ears "methods" if you want, metaphorically speaking, but it was the philosophy that was behind the methods that my brother was pointing to (rebellion, intentional subculture, "look at me"). 

Secondly, the quote you excerpted about "standards" for instance, was removed from its context.  Everybody has standards of some kind, even you.  Granted, if they are saying "standards" make you more holy, or that "standards" are dresses and buzz-cuts, and there is a disproportionate emphasis on those externals juxtaposed to inner holiness then you do have a point.  But the emphasis I've seen continually from Tom is on the philosophy behind the methods, not as much the methods themselves.  Several writers have stressed this.  The notion, as I alluded to earlier in this thread (Macarthur, Piper, et al), that many conservative folk are leary of such philosophies aren't exclusive to old-school Hyles style IFBers, not by a long shot.  This is just ONE example (I could post many more but this is from a nonIFB, even a CALVINIST source :D----9MARKS) of such a concern...


2. A belief in total depravity ought to upend the tenets of attractionalism.

Again, it would be helpful to define our terms, especially since I?ve somewhat tipped my hand by attaching the spooky suffix ?-ism? to the relatively nonthreatening adjective ?attractional.? What are the ?tenets? of this so-called ideology?

A few come to mind:
?Churches committed to attractionalism tend to not push people away. The goal is to keep the fence around the church low, to keep the door to the church open and unlocked, so that all people can come in to enjoy the fellowship of the church without the requirements of membership.
?Churches committed to attractionalism seek to curry favor among outsiders by highlighting how similar their members are to the world, whereas the Bible ties the church?s attractiveness to its distinctness from the world (Mt. 5:16, 1 Pet. 2:12). This commitment to similarity is why so much modern worship music resembles a run-of-the-mill arena show. It?s why so many churches do sermon series on movies or parenting or marriage or money management?such interests are universal. It?s why a cottage industry of programs often flourish in attractional churches, turning them into a kind a religious service provider, built to meet certain needs of prospective members in the surrounding community. Such programs?food pantries, recovery groups for addicts, small groups for divorcees, ESL classes?are certainly not ?bad? in a vacuum, but when tethered to an attractional philosophy of ministry that sloppifies the line between the church and the world, they obscure the primary purpose of the church and in the process tend to do more spiritual harm than material good.
?Churches committed to attractionalism feature preaching that tends to focus on the benefits of the gospel?happiness, improved marriages and parenting, a clean conscience, peace of mind, etc.?at the expense of clear teaching on the gospel itself. If you go to a church for a month, and you never once hear the pastor talk about sin, the wrath of God, and Christ?s substitutionary death, then you?re likely sitting in a church swayed by the commitments of attractionalism. If you hear the pastor call people to ?trust in Jesus? but never to ?repent of sin,? then you?re likely sitting in a church swayed by the tenets of attractionalism.

Attractionalism is bad. Attracting unbelievers is good.

Every church should want to attract unbelievers. In fact, 1 Corinthians 11?14 assumes their presence in our gatherings. Every time a church gathers, unbelievers should not only be welcomed but directly addressed; it should be a ?safe place? for them, where their lifestyles will be challenged, not disrespected, where they?ll face confrontation, not prejudice.

Every church should desire to be attractive to the unsaved. We seek to be attractive by planning our gatherings with a concern for clarity and intelligibility (1 Cor. 11?14). We seek to be attractive by preaching sermons that offer connections to their worldview (Acts 17). We seek to be attractive by being hospitable (Heb. 13:2) and meeting needs (Matt. 25:35). We seek to be attractive by being men of sincerity, commissioned by God to speak of Christ with confidence that the knowledge of him will be a fragrance of life to some, and death to others (2 Cor. 2:14?17).

But attractionalism takes these fairly obvious and benign desires and turns them into the raison d??tre of the local church. Attractionalism shrinks the commands of Scripture. Attractionalism inverts the Great Commission, turning it into a command to get people to come to us?and then lops off the parts that require patience and longsuffering. Attractionalism indulgently prioritizes one biblical command?evangelism?at the expense of others?meaningful church membership and discipline.

The point is that the philosophy produces the methods, and the further entrenched into pragmatism and "attractionalism" a church goes, the more likely the end result is a distancing from the core of the gospel(even when they use the same familiar sounding words, as the Mormons are often guilty of).

No, the point is that philosophy and methods are synonymous...in the eyes of Tom's Crusaders.
And the Crusaders call that 'attractionalism'.
Except for that jail cell in the auditorium thing.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
No, the point is that philosophy and methods are synonymous...in the eyes of Tom's Crusaders.
And the Crusaders call that 'attractionalism'.
Except for that jail cell in the auditorium thing.

I'm sure that there are many legalistic "standards preaching" folk in the group you are referring to, and that you have witnessed it first hand.  That doesn't mean that there isn't a ring of truth to Tom's concern, and that alarm is not just Tom and his crusaders, as I've shown or alluded to briefly a couple of times regarding other conservative evangelicals.  You can point to the unsophisticated IFB legalists and lampoon them til the cows come home, but that right criticism don't nullify the obvious pragmatism rampant in modern evangelicalism (even in some "neos").  Go ahead (rightfully) and point to those who wrongfully hold to a model of traditionalism in Christianity, just don't throw the baby out with the bath.
 
Spiritual "fruit" of the neo-IFB:  https://youtu.be/7dROYEyPN44?t=495
 
ALAYMAN said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
No, the point is that philosophy and methods are synonymous...in the eyes of Tom's Crusaders.
And the Crusaders call that 'attractionalism'.
Except for that jail cell in the auditorium thing.

I'm sure that there are many legalistic "standards preaching" folk in the group you are referring to, and that you have witnessed it first hand.  That doesn't mean that there isn't a ring of truth to Tom's concern, and that alarm is not just Tom and his crusaders, as I've shown or alluded to briefly a couple of times regarding other conservative evangelicals.  You can point to the unsophisticated IFB legalists and lampoon them til the cows come home, but that right criticism don't nullify the obvious pragmatism rampant in modern evangelicalism (even in some "neos").  Go ahead (rightfully) and point to those who wrongfully hold to a model of traditionalism in Christianity, just don't throw the baby out with the bath.

I have already ceded your point...there is rampant pragmatism in hip relevant evangelicalism. I have publicly and personally confronted such...in my own small circle of influence.
But, that is NOT what Tom?s Crusaders are crusading against. You don?t have to wonder because they tell you...Josh Teis and his new fangeled followers. That are IFB?s who have sinned in straying from the old paths reservation.

Somneone once said perception is reality and I?m afraid that the perception I have of Tom?s Crusaders in the dominant perception. As I mentioned earlier I am in a FB group with many young IFB Pastors who attend Josh Teis? ?Idea Day? conferences. Their take is like mine, that it?s totally about their methods. They also feel that Tom?s motivation is to mend fences with some of the old path feathers he may have ruffled with his book. To that, I have no idea. As to it being totally about methods, I have no doubt.
 
Twisted said:
Spiritual "fruit" of the neo-IFB:  https://youtu.be/7dROYEyPN44?t=495

I couldn?t play the vid on my iPad.
Kept getting error, reload message.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Twisted said:
Spiritual "fruit" of the neo-IFB:  https://youtu.be/7dROYEyPN44?t=495

I couldn?t play the vid on my iPad.
Kept getting error, reload message.

Get a real computer.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Twisted said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
Twisted said:
Spiritual "fruit" of the neo-IFB:  https://youtu.be/7dROYEyPN44?t=495

I couldn?t play the vid on my iPad.
Kept getting error, reload message.

Get a real computer.

Right after I get a real Bible.

LOL!  Agreed.

Gotta have priorities.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
I have already ceded your point...there is rampant pragmatism in hip relevant evangelicalism. I have publicly and personally confronted such...in my own small circle of influence.
But, that is NOT what Tom?s Crusaders are crusading against. You don?t have to wonder because they tell you...Josh Teis and his new fangeled followers. That are IFB?s who have sinned in straying from the old paths reservation.

Somneone once said perception is reality and I?m afraid that the perception I have of Tom?s Crusaders in the dominant perception. As I mentioned earlier I am in a FB group with many young IFB Pastors who attend Josh Teis? ?Idea Day? conferences. Their take is like mine, that it?s totally about their methods. They also feel that Tom?s motivation is to mend fences with some of the old path feathers he may have ruffled with his book. To that, I have no idea. As to it being totally about methods, I have no doubt.

I said early in the thread I don't know Teis and can't comment on his ministry, so I'll take your word for his sincerity.  My general philosophy on this subject (militant separation and such) is no doubt left of center from the Old School spectrum, and summed up in the Apostle's words when he said whether they preach Christ of strife or other motives so long as Christ and His gospel is preached they are my brothers and in that sense I am for them.  Some folk, not simply the IFB old guard, like to refine those lines of what is proper ministry and what is not, particularly through public media.  I don't find that so profitable for my tastes and energies, but rather rely on the old Baptist maxim of conducting business in my  L-O-C-A-L church.  I don't necessarily find fault in those who think that is a worthwhile cause, but I don't see the need to do so in light of so much ministry in my own neck of the words that needs attending, and goes left unattended.  My interest in the discussion, whether Tom's "crusaders" or 9MARKS is that I am very leary of fads, fashions, and fancy marketing gimmicks, church or otherwise.  I guess I am a K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) kinda guy and tend towards "if it ain't broke don't fix it" (and the powerful gospel ain't broke).  In the end, I ain't their judge, and I pray that their efforts are rightly motivated and there is eternal fruit abounding to His glory.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Twisted said:
Spiritual "fruit" of the neo-IFB:  https://youtu.be/7dROYEyPN44?t=495

I couldn?t play the vid on my iPad.
Kept getting error, reload message.

I got it to play, but it started at the 8 minute mark (of a 9 minute video) and it showed a forklift in warehouse causing an accident that folded the rows of shelved inventory like dominos.  Didn't know how that related to "neo fruit".
 
bgwilkinson said:
Yep, the not a denomination, denomination.
If it walks like a duck...

There is certainly some amount of group-think that goes on in the IFB world...

But IFB churches get to decide to support their own missionaries, and each church supposedly decides on its own issues.  Some (many?) are pretty much one-man-led businesses and that one man drives everything instead of the church actually making a decision - example "God has impressed upon me that we should open an orphanage.  How many are in favor of doing God's will and how many are going to rebel?"

I don't consider IFB a denomination, but there are those who are following men and do what the others do.
 
Back
Top