TULIP: The good, bad and ugly

[FSSL]

I'm not redefining or spinning anything.

I asked you very simple questions. Can you answer those questions?

Were you buried in the ground and God resurrected you from the grave to call upon Him?

You know the reference you provided is an analogy. Do you know what a analogy is?

Let me give you an example that will help you..... Colossians 2:12 begins with this....

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism....

Now literally, none of us were "buried with Christ" in the same tomb wherein Christ was buried. This is an analogy given that addresses our condition. The exact same takes place in Ephesians 2:1,5.

These "dead people" still have a voice. They still can hear,read, perceive, the Gospel of Christ. They can still call upon the name of the Lord. You're being dishonest with the analogy.

Now, were you literally dead, buried, in the ground and God literally resurrected your worm ridden body to call upon His name?

You can pretend not to know what being "dead in trespasses" means. You look silly doing so.

Why do you now, take up an absurd over realized, literal hermeneutic? Is it because you don't have an answer and you are trying to pretend not to know what "dead in trespasses" means to not give an answer?

The onus is on you to explain how a person "dead in trespasses" can make a positive decision for Christ without first being "made alive."

My position is clear, simple and allows the text to speak for itself. "Spiritually Dead people do not make positive decisions for Christ.... they must be made alive, first." God gets ALL, 100% of the glory. Too bad that idea is.controversial with some.

 

[praise_yeshua]

One liners are often a sign of a mocker.

I see you learned a lot from Vince's sermon series, so, are you hopping mad?

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

I fought against Vince as much as most anyone here. What I said was accurate about rsca. Doesn't matter to me if you like it or not.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm not redefining or spinning anything.

I asked you very simple questions. Can you answer those questions?

Were you buried in the ground and God resurrected you from the grave to call upon Him?

You know the reference you provided is an analogy. Do you know what a analogy is?

Let me give you an example that will help you..... Colossians 2:12 begins with this....

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism....

Now literally, none of us were "buried with Christ" in the same tomb wherein Christ was buried. This is an analogy given that addresses our condition. The exact same takes place in Ephesians 2:1,5.

These "dead people" still have a voice. They still can hear,read, perceive, the Gospel of Christ. They can still call upon the name of the Lord. You're being dishonest with the analogy.

Now, were you literally dead, buried, in the ground and God literally resurrected your worm ridden body to call upon His name?

You can pretend not to know what being "dead in trespasses" means. You look silly doing so.

Why do you now, take up an absurd over realized, literal hermeneutic? Is it because you don't have an answer and you are trying to pretend not to know what "dead in trespasses" means to not give an answer?

The onus is on you to explain how a person "dead in trespasses" can make a positive decision for Christ without first being "made alive."

My position is clear, simple and allows the text to speak for itself. "Spiritually Dead people do not make positive decisions for Christ.... they must be made alive, first." God gets ALL, 100% of the glory. Too bad that idea is.controversial with some.

I asked you a few simple question that you refuse to answer. I'm not the one refusing to answer. You simply made a statement without ANY proof of you determination. NONE. I gave examples. Clear examples. You're the one taking an "absurd over realized, literal hermeneutic". Not me. Are you really that lost in this?

You're assuming your conclusions are true without any evidence. NONE. Build you argument, don't assume you are correct without any evidence.

This is a dishonest tactic that Calvinist use!!!

To answer your silly question....

Can this supposedly.....dead person make a bad decision? Can this dead person do ANYTHING? The onus is upon you to prove that those "dead in trespasses and sin" are beyond any action. You are saying they are literally dead and can not do anything. If this is not what you're saying, then the onus is upon you define the scope of actions available to them.

I have consistently said here in this thread and in repeated in this forum, that the Gospel is the bridge between the Spiritual and the carnality nature of humanity. It is a message from God to humanity. It, in and of itself, has the power to enlighten the hearer.

I have consistently referenced Romans 1:16-17 and I would glad to debate on the proper exegesis of Romans 1:16-17. I have many debates on these verses over the years. I welcome one with you.

Just for record. It is rather clear that Paul said in verse 17 that the righteousness of God is "REVEALED" from "faith to faith". It says absolutely NOTHING about regeneration taking place before a person can respond. NOTHING.

That is your idiotic belief and you got from a idiot that should of held his pen till he got a little older. You're a blind follower of a juvenile despot that holds your mind "RANSOM" to foolishness.

 

[FSSL]

I quoted Scripture and this is your response?

Please, tell us how a person "dead in trespasses" can make a positive decision for Christ before he is "made alive."

I may have time for a formal debate on the Romans passage... let's do it!

(Btw.... I have held to these beliefs for at least two decades before meeting anyone on this forum)

 

[praise_yeshua]

I quoted Scripture and this is your response?

Please, tell us how a person "dead in trespasses" can make a positive decision for Christ before he is "made alive."

I may have time for a formal debate on the Romans passage... let's do it!

The verse you quoted doesn't define "dead in trespasses and sin". I have constantly asked you to define it and you have refused. Why would I have a formal debate with you if you're not going to define the scope of action available to those "dead in trespasses and sin".

How difficult is this?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=praise_yeshua]You are saying they are literally dead and can not do anything...[/quote]

That word doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.

 

[FSSL]

I quoted Scripture and this is your response?

Please, tell us how a person "dead in trespasses" can make a positive decision for Christ before he is "made alive."

I may have time for a formal debate on the Romans passage... let's do it!

The verse you quoted doesn't define "dead in trespasses and sin". I have constantly asked you to define it and you have refused. Why would I have a formal debate with you if you're not going to define the scope of action available to those "dead in trespasses and sin".

How difficult is this?

I have defined it. I have been saying, all along, that a person who is "dead in trespasses" is unable to make a positive decision for Christ without first, being made alive.

You are silly for continuing to suggest that I am thinking the person is physically dead.

About the formal debate... you offered it in your last post and now you are quickly retracting the offer.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I quoted Scripture and this is your response?

Please, tell us how a person "dead in trespasses" can make a positive decision for Christ before he is "made alive."

I may have time for a formal debate on the Romans passage... let's do it!

The verse you quoted doesn't define "dead in trespasses and sin". I have constantly asked you to define it and you have refused. Why would I have a formal debate with you if you're not going to define the scope of action available to those "dead in trespasses and sin".

How difficult is this?

I have defined it. I have been saying, all along, that a person who is "dead in trespasses" is unable to make a positive decision for Christ without first, being made alive.

This isn't defining the scope of being "dead". You simply said that this person can't make a "positive" decision for Christ. I asked repeated just what can this "dead" person do?

I'll ask again. What can this "DEAD" person do?

You are silly for continuing to suggest that I am thinking the person is physically dead.

Then define the scope of this person being "dead". Certainly you expect me or anyone else.... to accept "dead = incapable of a positive decision".

About the formal debate... you offered it in your last post and now you are quickly retracting the offer.

I expect a sincere debate where the participants define the entire scope of their beliefs. You are purposely.... refusing to define the ENTIRE scope of what it means to be dead in trespasses and sin.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The define the scope of this person being "dead". Certainly you expect me or anyone else.... to accept "dead = incapable of a positive decision".

Why not? 

What can a spiritually dead person (that is, a person who is dead in trespasses and sin) do?  He can do what a spiritually dead person does, and no more. 

A spiritually dead person "will not" believe under any circumstances, which is effectively the same as saying he cannot believe.  Being made alive by the Spirit, we "will not" disbelieve, which is effectively the same as saying we will believe, no matter the circumstances.

So the difference between a believer and an unbeliever is not what decision he makes.  The difference is the Spirit of God giving the spiritually dead person life, which produces repentance and faith.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The define the scope of this person being "dead". Certainly you expect me or anyone else.... to accept "dead = incapable of a positive decision".

Why not? 

What can a spiritually dead person (that is, a person who is dead in trespasses and sin) do?  He can do what a spiritually dead person does, and no more. 

A spiritually dead person "will not" believe under any circumstances, which is effectively the same as saying he cannot believe.  Being made alive by the Spirit, we "will not" disbelieve, which is effectively the same as saying we will believe, no matter the circumstances.

So the difference between a believer and an unbeliever is not what decision he makes.  The difference is the Spirit of God giving the spiritually dead person life, which produces repentance and faith.

What can a spiritual dead person do? You and FSSL both have said this "dead person" can't make a positive choice. Do this not imply this dead person can do something? Why didn't you say this "dead person" can't do anything? Why?

I have said repeatedly said that the dead in trespasses and sin can respond to the call of Gospel.

You believe the same thing. You simply believe they respond negatively.... The next question is WHY? Prove it. I can lead you to water but I can't make you drink. Which by the way.... is exactly what the Gospel does. It lead a person to the Truth. I mentioned Hebrews 6 earlier. Hebrews 6 talks of those who have even went so far as "tasting" the good things of God.

You Calvinist always talk about your back sides. In one breath you say those dead in trespasses and sin can't do anything and then you turn around admit they can. You can't make this "parsing" of words up.

 

[rsc2a]

"They can do something. Nothing is something."

 

[praise_yeshua]

"They can do something. Nothing is something."

Good grief.....

How do you put people on ignore? I can't seem to find it anymore.

 

[FSSL]

This isn't defining the scope of being "dead". You simply said that this person can't make a "positive" decision for Christ. I asked repeated just what can this "dead" person do?

I'll ask again. What can this "DEAD" person do?

The answer is obvious, but for sake of moving this along... WHAT CAN A "DEAD IN HIS SINS" PERSON DO?

• This "dead in his sins" person can be hostile to God... in fact, he can only be hostile to God. Ro 8.7
• This "dead in his sins" person can please only himself.  Ro 8.5
• This "dead in his sins" person is capable of being the most heinous person on earth. Eph 4.19
• This "dead in his sins" person can only remain "dead in his sins." Ro 8.10
• This "dead in his sins" person can only remain a slave to sin. Ro 8.15
• This "dead in his sins" person can only remain consistently against the Spirit. 1 Cor 2.14
• This "dead in his sins" person can only desire to remain against God and is only capable of moving further away from God. Jn 8.34
• This "dead in his sins" person can only do what his sinful nature allows. Jer 13.23

So, we must ask again, of you, considering what Scripture says, WHAT in praytell can a "dead in his sins" person do to move toward God WITHOUT being "made alive?"

 

[Bob H]

Calvinist  _ _ _ _ _  waxed eloquent about the "natural gifts" of fallen people, who are able by the help of God's Spirit thru common grace to achieve great things in the arts and sciences.




Just sayin'........................................

 

[FSSL]

Calvinist  _ _ _ _ _  waxed eloquent about the "natural gifts" of fallen people, who are able by the help of God's Spirit thru common grace to achieve great things in the arts and sciences.




Just sayin'........................................

.... to satisfy their own selfish desires.... NOT to please God. Is 64.6, Mt 6.5

Just quotin' Scripture.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This isn't defining the scope of being "dead". You simply said that this person can't make a "positive" decision for Christ. I asked repeated just what can this "dead" person do?

I'll ask again. What can this "DEAD" person do?

The answer is obvious, but for sake of moving this along... WHAT CAN A "DEAD IN HIS SINS" PERSON DO?

• This "dead in his sins" person can be hostile to God... in fact, he can only be hostile to God. Ro 8.7
• This "dead in his sins" person can please only himself.  Ro 8.5
• This "dead in his sins" person is capable of being the most heinous person on earth. Eph 4.19
• This "dead in his sins" person can only remain "dead in his sins." Ro 8.10
• This "dead in his sins" person can only remain a slave to sin. Ro 8.15
• This "dead in his sins" person can only remain consistently against the Spirit. 1 Cor 2.14
• This "dead in his sins" person can only desire to remain against God and is only capable of moving further away from God. Jn 8.34
• This "dead in his sins" person can only do what his sinful nature allows. Jer 13.23

Finally..... Thanks!!!

The "obvious" does not an argument make. You talk of "onus" and then refuse to do the leg work to support your own belief. Personally, I don't see this as being "obvious" in any way. In fact, your conclusions are not supported by the verses you referenced but save that for later.

I ask that if you want to change you mind about something, you do not change this list. Feel free to amend it later posts but please don't change this list.

There are no contradictions in the Scriptures. Contradictions only exist in our minds and in our conclusions. I'm going to contradiction your conclusions with Scripture. I would like for you explain why they are not contradictory.

Unregenerate man can respond to the Gospel. He can even respond to the point of "tasting" of the good things of God. (Hebrews 6:4-5, Acts 17:27)
Unregenerate man can understand the sacrificial death of a friend. Lets just call them "heroes". (John 15:13)
Unregenerate man knows about love. Love is rooted in all of humanity. Unregenerate man can express sacrificial love. (Luke 6:32)
Unregenerate man can be persuaded of the existence of God through "natural" things. (Romans 1:20)
The Gospel is the Spiritual bridge between the Heavenly and the earthly (the carnal). It is expressed in ways that all of humanity can embrace. (Acts 17:29-31, John 7:37-43)

What I am NOT saying...

I am NOT saying the Holy Spirit isn't part of the process of salvation, BUT it is absolutely ridiculous to ignore the innate Power of the Gospel and its work in humanity. The Calvinist belief that a man must first be regenerated to respond to the Gospel is absolute nonsense. Belief in the Gospel brings the conviction and work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[subllibrm]

There are no contradictions in the Scriptures.

I agree.

Jesus died for all.

There is no one who seeks God.

 

[FSSL]

So, we must ask again, of you, considering what Scripture says, WHAT in praytell can a "dead in his sins" person do to move toward God WITHOUT being "made alive?"

I will answer your last post when I get to my computer. Why will you not answer this question?

 

[subllibrm]

I am NOT saying the Holy Spirit isn't part of the process of salvation

What I AM saying is that apart from the Holy Spirit opening the eyes of those that are blind to the gospel (2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them) there is no "process of salvation".

 

[FSSL]

No process? Does everyone come to Christ immediately, every time?

There is another aspect... one that we are really discussing. The Bible places an emphasis on what comes first in our salvation. Either God starts the process or man starts the process.