TULIP: The good, bad and ugly

[praise_yeshua]

No process? Does everyone come to Christ immediately, every time?

There is another aspect... one that we are really discussing. The Bible places an emphasis on what comes first in our salvation. Either God starts the process or man starts the process.

He's lost in all of this. He has been for a while now.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are no contradictions in the Scriptures.

I agree.

Jesus died for all.

There is no one who seeks God.

You must place this verse in the context in which was given. Jesus said....

If I be lifted up..... I'll let you finish the verse. Also, should references the verses I gave FSSL. You'll change your mind. Well.... at least you should.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So, we must ask again, of you, considering what Scripture says, WHAT in praytell can a "dead in his sins" person do to move toward God WITHOUT being "made alive?"

I will answer your last post when I get to my computer. Why will you not answer this question?

"Call upon the Lord".

Rom 10:8  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Notice that word "nigh".

Act 17:27  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Which if you study the use of μακράν.... you might have clearer picture of Ephesians 2....

 

[subllibrm]

No process? Does everyone come to Christ immediately, every time?

There is another aspect... one that we are really discussing. The Bible places an emphasis on what comes first in our salvation. Either God starts the process or man starts the process.

Of course there is. Of course they don't. Hence the quotation mark after the word no.

And the point I was making is that without the HS removing the blindness no one ends up in the "process" (saved).

 

[praise_yeshua]

No process? Does everyone come to Christ immediately, every time?

There is another aspect... one that we are really discussing. The Bible places an emphasis on what comes first in our salvation. Either God starts the process or man starts the process.

And the point I was making is that without the HS removing the blindness no one ends up in the "process" (saved).

Prove it!!! You said this. God didn't say this.

 

[subllibrm]

No process? Does everyone come to Christ immediately, every time?

There is another aspect... one that we are really discussing. The Bible places an emphasis on what comes first in our salvation. Either God starts the process or man starts the process.

And the point I was making is that without the HS removing the blindness no one ends up in the "process" (saved).

Prove it!!! You said this. God didn't say this.

2 Cor 4:4

How do those who are blind to the gospel see it if the Holy Spirit (God) does not heal their blindness?

 

[FSSL]

• You talk of "onus" and then refuse to do the leg work to support your own belief. Personally, I don't see this as being "obvious" in any way. In fact, your conclusions are not supported by the verses you referenced but save that for later.

  
  You can "handswipe" away the verses above. They are unequivocal and clear. Unsaved man is hostile to God.
  
  • Unregenerate man can make a pretense to, and perhaps respond to the Gospel. He can even respond to the point of "tasting" of the good things of God, but will ultimately reject them and find it "impossible to... be brought back to repentance." (Hebrews 6:4-5, Acts 17:27)
  • "Commandment keepers,"unlike  unregenerate man can understand the sacrificial death of Christ and accept His sacrifice. Let's call Him our Savior. (John 15:13)
  • Unregenerate man knows about love. Love is rooted in all of humanity. Unregenerate man can express love to those who love him (selfish, but God uses it for common good). (Luke 6:32)
  • Unregenerate man can be persuaded of the existence of God through "natural" things. But as we read Romans 1:20, we find that he will reject God and make his own idol.
  • The Gospel is the Spiritual bridge between the Heavenly and the earthly (the carnal). It is expressed in ways that all of humanity can embrace. But we know that not all of humanity will embrace the Gospel. Rather, most will reject it. (Mt 7.14, Acts 17:29-31, John 7:37-43)
  
  There you go... I fixed it all for you.
  
  

  I am NOT saying the Holy Spirit isn't part of the process of salvation, BUT it is absolutely ridiculous to ignore the innate Power of the Gospel and its work in humanity. The Calvinist belief that a man must first be regenerated to respond to the Gospel is absolute nonsense. Belief in the Gospel brings the conviction and work of the Holy Spirit.

  
  Since the Bible says that God...
  
  "makes the blind see"
  "makes men alive"
  "makes new creatures"
  "gives new birth"
  "causes the increase"
  "makes born of the Spirit"
  
  ...I am pretty well convinced that man does not have the ability to raise himself from spiritual death, remove his blindness, make himself a new creature, give birth to himself.
  
  So... why do you continue to avoid answering MY question?

 

[praise_yeshua]

No process? Does everyone come to Christ immediately, every time?

There is another aspect... one that we are really discussing. The Bible places an emphasis on what comes first in our salvation. Either God starts the process or man starts the process.

And the point I was making is that without the HS removing the blindness no one ends up in the "process" (saved).

Prove it!!! You said this. God didn't say this.

2 Cor 4:4

How do those who are blind to the gospel see it if the Holy Spirit (God) does not heal their blindness?

Have you read verse 3?

Also, Paul prepares his argument in Chapter 3.

2Co 3:12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13  And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Pay attention to verse 16.

 

[praise_yeshua]

• Unregenerate man can make a pretense to, and perhaps respond to the Gospel. He can even respond to the point of "tasting" of the good things of God, but will ultimately reject them and find it "impossible to... be brought back to repentance." (Hebrews 6:4-5, Acts 17:27)

Nonsense. Even so, how does this equal = "no positive decision". You're the one that used those words. Not me. You did.

So.... you actually agree that a person can respond to the Gospel and even go as far as "tasting"..... but he will ultimately reject them?

You know. That just DOESN'T make any sense. None at all. You say a "dead person in trespasses and sin" can't do anything positive in response to God and then you say this?

Really? Is anyone suppose to buy this?

For now. I'll let you explain this.... I don't honestly see us getting past this point. You refuse to deal with this honestly. At least admit you chose your words foolish and rephrase.

So... why do you continue to avoid answering MY question?

I haven't avoided anything. How would you like for me to address this "question" you think is unanswered? See post 162

 

[praise_yeshua]

• • "Commandment keepers,"unlike  unregenerate man can understand the sacrificial death of Christ and accept His sacrifice. Let's call Him our Savior. (John 15:13)

  
  There are no commandment keepers. You're not. I'm not. No one is. If this is true, which it is, then why are you drawing a contrast? All of humanity is in the same "boat".
  
  

  • Unregenerate man knows about love. Love is rooted in all of humanity. Unregenerate man can express love to those who love him (selfish, but God uses it for common good). (Luke 6:32)

  
  Did you miss where referenced John 15:13?
  
  Do you honesty believe Jesus is the only person to "lay down his life" for a friend?
  
  Really? Who have "heroes" throughout of society that gave their lives for the good of others. It happens all the time. This isn't something difficult to understand. Nothing "selfish" about it. Are you saying all of these actions are ultimately "selfish"?
  
  

  • Unregenerate man can be persuaded of the existence of God through "natural" things. But as we read Romans 1:20, we find that he will reject God and make his own idol.
  • The Gospel is the Spiritual bridge between the Heavenly and the earthly (the carnal). It is expressed in ways that all of humanity can embrace. But we know that not all of humanity will embrace the Gospel. Rather, most will reject it. (Mt 7.14, Acts 17:29-31, John 7:37-43)

  
  Romans 1:20 doesn't reference the whole of humanity. It only references the ultimate unbelief of some. What you are ignoring is the fact that the verse clearly says that they "knew Him as God".
  
  Yes. Most will reject the Gospel. This changes nothing in methodology. These learned about God through natural means. Even to the point of knowing HE... is God. Not just that God existed. Even to the point of knowing some exacting "things' about Him. Not all of them changed the truth into a lie. A dishonest Calvinist is always down playing what the natural man can know. Always. On one hand he says they can't know much of anything. When pressed, they change their tune. They just seek to say it isn't enough.
  
  The only thing different from the ungodly and those who accept Christ is accepting the call of the Gospel.
  [/quote]

 

[FSSL]

There are no commandment keepers. You're not. I'm not. No one is. If this is true, which it is, then why are you drawing a contrast? All of humanity is in the same "boat".

Since this passage is talking about believers, I am one of them.

You are going off on some wild tangents...
Just because unsaved people recognize heroes, that has nothing to do with their salvation.
Romans 1.20 references the whole of unregenerate humanity.

These learned about God through natural means. Even to the point of knowing HE... is God. Not just that God existed.

Even the demons know... and they shudder....

A dishonest Calvinist is always down playing what the natural man can know. Always.

You keep calling me "dishonest." I have just given a solid defense, through Scripture. You are ignoring the context of the Scripture you quote, not realizing that these passages speak nothing about an unsaved man being saved.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are no commandment keepers. You're not. I'm not. No one is. If this is true, which it is, then why are you drawing a contrast? All of humanity is in the same "boat".

Since this passage is talking about believers, I am one of them.

Joh 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Its referencing the giving of life for friends. It even references the love of "man". Did you notice that? Jesus is speaking in terms a "man" can understand. You can try to confine it to believers, but its not.

Are you denying the sacrificial deaths of human beings....one for the other? Does only "regenerate man" give his life for another? You also ignored some of my questions.

I think you need to be consistent in your beliefs. You said that unregenerate man can only show "selfish" love. That is what you said. Paul even witnessed that a man might die for a righteous man...

Rom 5:7  For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

You are going off on some wild tangents...
Just because unsaved people recognize heroes, that has nothing to do with their salvation.
Romans 1.20 references the whole of unregenerate humanity.

Come on..... No wild tangents at all. Stick with trying to answer. No need to deflect your own inability to answer onto me....

Romans 1:20 doesn't reference the whole or unregenerate humanity... what a self serving conclusion. All of humanity is without excuse. To be specific, the later part of Romans 1 is all about the old world and how they dealt with the truth of God. Some believed. Some didn't. It doesn't prove your thesis concerning the lack of knowledge available to the unregenerate.

Even the demons know... and they shudder....

Sure they do. Yet, demons don't have a sacrifice to claim or a Savior to call upon. Man does. Christ died for humanity. Not demons. I suspect, if Christ were to die for demons..... many of them would claim His sacrifice.

You keep calling me "dishonest." I have just given a solid defense, through Scripture. You are ignoring the context of the Scripture you quote, not realizing that these passages speak nothing about an unsaved man being saved.

Nonsense. I call you dishonest because... YOU... .began the thread about "At least Calvinists are honest". Which, by the way, implies that NON_CALVINIST are dishonest. Just dishing back what you started. Like a "GOOD"... Calvinist, you didn't think about this did you? Its all about your system. You can't think outside of your system.

 

[FSSL]

Well then.... Mr. Honesty :-*

What title best explains your position? Classical Arminian, Wesleyan, SemiPelagian??

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Deut 29:2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

 

[subllibrm]

Prove it!!!

What are you, twelve?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Prove it!!!

What are you, twelve?

Surely you don't expect me to take your word for it..... I'll accept the Scriptures. Your word... not so much!

 

[rsc2a]

I know you are but what am I?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Deut 29:2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

Do you understand all of the mighty works God wrought?

Regeneration doesn't answer all questions.

Regardless.... The writer of Hebrews talked of their evil heart of unbelief. Read your Bible. I'll give you a hint. Look at chapter 3. Unbelief damns anyone. It is the responsibility of the individual to believe or not to believe. You take the obvious and recklessly take it to mean that God must regenerate someone BEFORE they can believe. This verse doesn't even come close to saying this. It's just a statement of fact If God had opened your heart you'd have a better understanding..... well duh!!!!! Hebrews 3 is clear on the why. Read on over to chapter 4 and notice the word "mixed". Do yourself a favor. Underline the word mixed.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well then.... Mr. Honesty :-*

What title best explains your position? Classical Arminian, Wesleyan, SemiPelagian??

None of the above. I'm in between just about everything. I do believe in the Perscerence of the Saints..... but that's about as obvious in the Scriptures...... as the nose on the end of our faces.

 

[FSSL]

Well then.... Mr. Honesty :-*

What title best explains your position? Classical Arminian, Wesleyan, SemiPelagian??

None of the above. I'm in between just about everything. I do believe in the Perscerence of the Saints..... but that's about as obvious in the Scriptures...... as the nose on the end of our faces.

Perseverance or Eternal Security?