TULIP: The good, bad and ugly

[FSSL]

Romans 1:20 doesn't reference the whole or unregenerate humanity... what a self serving conclusion. All of humanity is without excuse.

Then please identify the antecedent to the pronoun "they" in verse 21.

The whole point of verses 18ff is establishing the fact that EVERY unbeliever suppresses the truth. Why? Because they are hostile to God and unless He makes them alive/removes their blindness (and many more analogies of unsaved man's impotence)... they will continue until their death.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Well then.... Mr. Honesty :-*

What title best explains your position? Classical Arminian, Wesleyan, SemiPelagian??

None of the above. I'm in between just about everything. I do believe in the Perscerence of the Saints..... but that's about as obvious in the Scriptures...... as the nose on the end of our faces.

Perscerence of the Saints...is obvious in the Scriptures?

Where is it found?

Is it some new modern Arminian belief?

Someone is hopelessly confused.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well then.... Mr. Honesty :-*

What title best explains your position? Classical Arminian, Wesleyan, SemiPelagian??

None of the above. I'm in between just about everything. I do believe in the Perscerence of the Saints..... but that's about as obvious in the Scriptures...... as the nose on the end of our faces.

Perseverance or Eternal Security?

In the last couple decades.... some.... have taken it upon themselves to blur the lines between the two. If you will define what you believe "ES" teaches.. .I'll answer.

I can sum up my belief in this by saying we are "kept by the power of God". AS much as some like to say differently, God has not empowered us to live without sinning. It doesn't happen. In fact, it is a vexing..... ongoing trial we face in this life. Perfection is beyond us. We haven't experienced the full revelation of God's plan for His own. I don't make excuses. The guilt is mine but it beyond me to fix it. I believe Paul summed it up perfectly when he said.

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well then.... Mr. Honesty :-*

What title best explains your position? Classical Arminian, Wesleyan, SemiPelagian??

None of the above. I'm in between just about everything. I do believe in the Perscerence of the Saints..... but that's about as obvious in the Scriptures...... as the nose on the end of our faces.

Perscerence of the Saints...is obvious in the Scriptures?

Where is it found?

Is it some new modern Arminian belief?

Someone is hopelessly confused.

I didn't notice it till now. Sorry for the confusion. I meant "Perseverance of the Saints".

 

[FSSL]

In the last couple decades.... some.... have taken it upon themselves to blur the lines between the two. If you will define what you believe "ES" teaches.. .I'll answer.

P - Perseverance has two aspects.

Eternally secure.. God keeps us. We cannot loose our salvation

Perserverance... Genuine believers will persevere in their faith.

Do you believe both?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Romans 1:20 doesn't reference the whole or unregenerate humanity... what a self serving conclusion. All of humanity is without excuse.

Then please identify the antecedent to the pronoun "they" in verse 21.

The whole point of verses 18ff is establishing the fact that EVERY unbeliever suppresses the truth. Why? Because they are hostile to God and unless He makes them alive/removes their blindness (and many more analogies of unsaved man's impotence)... they will continue until their death.

The "they" are those of the old world (before the flood) that changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and serve the creature more than the Creator.

The entire point of the verses in question..... is to establish the history of unbelief in those who reject the Truth of God. Its not a reflection of the entire "unregenerate" classification of humanity. The entire discourse begins with the supposition that the Gospel reveals the Righteousness of God from "faith to faith". Those who rejected the Truth of God carried down through history by Adam through Seth and onto their descendants to the time of judgement faced in Noah's day. The "death" that come upon all of humanity for sin. The "Gospel" Paul is preaching is the "key" to these verses. It is the object of the entire discourse found in Romans and is witnessed through the history of mankind. A history that Paul appeals to throughout the book of Romans. He begins in Chapter 1 by appealing the Truth in History of the old world and works his way on down through the calling of Abraham and the institution of the Law and its proper application. I love the book of Romans. I love preaching from it. I have spent some time in its pages. I read years ago that Augustine read the book of Romans most everyday of his life. It would do a person good to do the same. Without the book of Romans...... we'd have much more confusion than we already do. This is one of the reasons that SM has so much difficulty wrestling words found in its pages. The very foundation of its Truths are witnessed not just in the writing itself, but through truths found in nature and history.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In the last couple decades.... some.... have taken it upon themselves to blur the lines between the two. If you will define what you believe "ES" teaches.. .I'll answer.

P - Perseverance has two aspects.

Eternally secure.. God keeps us. We cannot loose our salvation

Perserverance... Genuine believers will persevere in their faith.

Do you believe both?

I have always consider them one in the same.

IF you're demanding "perseverance" to mean that the elect will cease from sin...... then NO. I do not believe this. If this were true, then you can leave all of us out of it.

Perseverance to me.... means that a truly saved man will never deny faith in His Master. How can we?

 

[subllibrm]

I can sum up my belief in this by saying we are "kept by the power of God".

I believe that too. I just see it as starting one step earlier than you do.

Using the metaphor where Jesus promises that nothing can pluck us out of His hand, I believe that God the Father puts us securely in Jesus hand while you believe that we put ourselves into His hand first then we are secure.

At least that is how I understand the crux of our differences.

 

[rsc2a]

The "they" is pre-flood? Nothing like making it up as you go along.

I know! When it said God so loved the world, world actually means cupcakes.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I can sum up my belief in this by saying we are "kept by the power of God".

I believe that too. I just see it as starting one step earlier than you do.

Using the metaphor where Jesus promises that nothing can pluck us out of His hand, I believe that God the Father puts us securely in Jesus hand while you believe that we put ourselves into His hand first then we are secure.

At least that is how I understand the crux of our differences.

I don't believe we "crawl" into His hand. We simply call out to God and He..... reaches downs His hand to rescue us. David witnessed this in Psalm 40:2.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The "they" is pre-flood? Nothing like making it up as you go along.

I know! When it said God so loved the world, world actually means cupcakes.

I've believed it for many years. Preached on it before others. I haven't made anything up as I .... GO.

Just because I actually study... and do the work myself.... and come to conclusion you've not heard before..... doesn't mean its wrong because "I" did it. I gave my heart to know it. I didn't give my mind to Calvin or anyone else.

 

[FSSL]

I have always consider them one in the same.

IF you're demanding "perseverance" to mean that the elect will cease from sin...... then NO. I do not believe this. If this were true, then you can leave all of us out of it.

Perseverance to me.... means that a truly saved man will never deny faith in His Master. How can we?

Then you are not familiar with even the basic Calvinistic doctrines.

If you do not understand what perseverance of the saints means, and confuse it with Wesleyan perfectionism, then I suggest you read the Canons of Dort before rejecting them.

Here is a key verse (with Canons od Dort elaboration) on perseverance: "But God, who is the Father of all consolation, does not suffer them to be tempted above that they are able, but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that they may be able to endure it (1 Cor. 10:13), and by the Holy Spirit again inspires them with the comfortable assurance of persevering."

It is the basis of our assurance of salvation. The other side of the same coin as Eternal Security. To deny this perseverance is to make an absurdity of Eternal Security.

 

[FSSL]

The "they" are those of the old world (before the flood) that changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and serve the creature more than the Creator.

You need to reread Romans 1.18ff.. there is ZERO reference to your so-called "Old world."

Instead.... we have the present tense: " The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,"

 

[subllibrm]

I can sum up my belief in this by saying we are "kept by the power of God".

I believe that too. I just see it as starting one step earlier than you do.

Using the metaphor where Jesus promises that nothing can pluck us out of His hand, I believe that God the Father puts us securely in Jesus hand while you believe that we put ourselves into His hand first then we are secure.

At least that is how I understand the crux of our differences.

I don't believe we "crawl" into His hand. We simply call out to God and He..... reaches downs His hand to rescue us. David witnessed this in Psalm 40:2.

Who said crawl?  Wouldn't running and diving into the sanctuary be a better picture?  ???

The point is that I am there in His hand. One of two things happened.
1. I put myself there as an act of my will.
2. God placed me there as an act of His will.

 

[rsc2a]

The "they" are those of the old world (before the flood) that changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and serve the creature more than the Creator.

You need to reread Romans 1.18ff.. there is ZERO reference to your so-called "Old world."

Instead.... we have the present tense: " The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,"

He put his heart into this understanding. How dare you question him?

Granted, I might expect to hear about aliens, vampires and how Adam was created without blood next.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have always consider them one in the same.

IF you're demanding "perseverance" to mean that the elect will cease from sin...... then NO. I do not believe this. If this were true, then you can leave all of us out of it.

Perseverance to me.... means that a truly saved man will never deny faith in His Master. How can we?

Then you are not familiar with even the basic Calvinistic doctrines.

If you do not understand what perseverance of the saints means, and confuse it with Wesleyan perfectionism, then I suggest you read the Canons of Dort before rejecting them.

This is about the most absurd respond I could have imagined.

I'm not familiar with even the basic Calvinistic doctrines? Really? I understand them just fine. I never said one word about what the Canons of Dort had to say about it. I was talking about they are applied by the people who claim Calvinism. Not everyone that follows "Calvinism" references the the Canons of Dort. In fact, many scholars say the language of the council distort the meanings of the Canons. You're one of a few NUTS that think they do. You're the one with a "understanding" problem.

Here is a key verse for perseverance: But God, who is the Father of all consolation, does not suffer them to be tempted above that they are able, but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that they may be able to endure it (1 Cor. 10:13), and by the Holy Spirit again inspires them with the comfortable assurance of persevering.

Oh yeah. YOU take that escape EVERY time. You're an idiot if you think anyone is going to believe you. I don't. Do you even read what post? Are you that arrogant to think you believe Perseverance is the very denial of all sin? You're a failure. Your life is full of sin. You no more represent this type of "Perseverance" than a "rat" represents a wholesome meal full of the plaque.

Why didn't you reference the Westminster Confession? I know why.... BECAUSE IT CONTRADICTS what you're SAYING.

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

It is the basis of our assurance of salvation. The other side of the same coin as Eternal Security. To deny this perseverance is to make an absurdity of Eternal Security.

Only a fool denies his continual sin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You need to reread Romans 1.18ff.. there is ZERO reference to your so-called "Old world."

Instead.... we have the present tense: " The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,"

You're crazy...

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,

 

[FSSL]

Your limitation of this passage to the old world, based on that phrase is amazingly absurd.

These things ARE clearly seen... no past tense... no limitation to the old world. EVERY unbeliever is referenced in this passage.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The "they" are those of the old world (before the flood) that changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and serve the creature more than the Creator.

You need to reread Romans 1.18ff.. there is ZERO reference to your so-called "Old world."

Instead.... we have the present tense: " The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,"

He put his heart into this understanding. How dare you question him?

Granted, I might expect to hear about aliens, vampires and how Adam was created without blood next.

I've had enough of your mocking. I suggest you move on. Your "implications" are dishonest and ungodly. I haven't said anything about aliens, vampires and Adam being created without blood.

You a liar and a degenerate piece of trash. You haven't done anything but throw one liners at me for days. Leave me alone and stay out of the conversation.

 

[FSSL]

Only a fool denies his continual sin.

There we have it.... a complete and utter confusion of Wesleyanism vs Calvinism.

I will let others take over for now...