Views on tithing

[christundivided]

So you would find Sproul's views on paedobaptism to be founded in solid exegesis?

But in the case of tithing vs grace-giving, neither is effective at getting Christians to give, as it has been proven many times over that most church-goers give far less than 10% no matter which exegetical/topical method of instruction is used.

I agree with this. Either way, success isn't often an indication of what's right.

 

[subllibrm]

Lots of bitterness towards pastors displayed on this thread. 

FWIW none of our pastors makes more than $50,000 and the most expensive of their houses goes about $180,000. All three of their wives work. None of them drive big/fancy/expensive cars. Not sure what any of that has to do with why or how much you give to church.  :-\

 

[rsc2a]

Lots of bitterness towards pastors displayed on this thread. 

FWIW none of our pastors makes more than $50,000 and the most expensive of their houses goes about $180,000. All three of their wives work. None of them drive big/fancy/expensive cars. Not sure what any of that has to do with why or how much you give to church.  :-\

Because you have preachers that preach that you should give a 10% to the church. The really fun ones then say that once you give it, you shouldn't question how it is spent because that's the job of the leadership. So "give 10% no matter what and you shouldn't hold people accountable". Couple that with getting $5 handmade Christmas cards in the mail from the church, and we decided to figure out better ways to give.

I'd rather buy my neighbors groceries for a couple weeks than give to the church so they can use it to buy handmade Christmas cards and iPhones for their staff.

 

[subllibrm]

Lots of bitterness towards pastors displayed on this thread. 

FWIW none of our pastors makes more than $50,000 and the most expensive of their houses goes about $180,000. All three of their wives work. None of them drive big/fancy/expensive cars. Not sure what any of that has to do with why or how much you give to church.  :-\

Because you have preachers that preach that you should give a 10% to the church. The really fun ones then say that once you give it, you shouldn't question how it is spent because that's the job of the leadership. So "give 10% no matter what and you shouldn't hold people accountable". Couple that with getting $5 handmade Christmas cards in the mail from the church, and we decided to figure out better ways to give.

I'd rather buy my neighbors groceries for a couple weeks than give to the church so they can use it to buy handmade Christmas cards and iPhones for their staff.

As was noted earlier by someone else; why would anyone be a member of a church that handled finances that way? Seems a more important point than the money.

I am thankful that I haven't been subjected to anything like that.

 

[rsc2a]

Because you have preachers that preach that you should give a 10% to the church. The really fun ones then say that once you give it, you shouldn't question how it is spent because that's the job of the leadership. So "give 10% no matter what and you shouldn't hold people accountable". Couple that with getting $5 handmade Christmas cards in the mail from the church, and we decided to figure out better ways to give.

I'd rather buy my neighbors groceries for a couple weeks than give to the church so they can use it to buy handmade Christmas cards and iPhones for their staff.

As was noted earlier by someone else; why would anyone be a member of a church that handled finances that way? Seems a more important point than the money.

I am thankful that I haven't been subjected to anything like that.

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/how-do-you-decide-the-difference/msg28265/#msg28265

 

[Timothy]

Lots of bitterness towards pastors displayed on this thread. 

FWIW none of our pastors makes more than $50,000 and the most expensive of their houses goes about $180,000. All three of their wives work. None of them drive big/fancy/expensive cars. Not sure what any of that has to do with why or how much you give to church.  :-\

Church we left paid out 50% of it's money received to the pastor. He got about $100,000 .... his wife would complain about their "small" home (tell the Church God was testing them) and finally God gave them a bigger home and bigger mortgage. Bitterness? I don't know ... just seemed wrong to take so much when many of the members made so little, and nothing really was done to reach the lost with the money. Well - we did have services - but most people don't just attend Church randomly.

 

[graceandtruth]

Lots of bitterness towards pastors displayed on this thread. 

FWIW none of our pastors makes more than $50,000 and the most expensive of their houses goes about $180,000. All three of their wives work. None of them drive big/fancy/expensive cars. Not sure what any of that has to do with why or how much you give to church.  :-\

Church we left paid out 50% of it's money received to the pastor. He got about $100,000 .... his wife would complain about their "small" home (tell the Church God was testing them) and finally God gave them a bigger home and bigger mortgage. Bitterness? I don't know ... just seemed wrong to take so much when many of the members made so little, and nothing really was done to reach the lost with the money. Well - we did have services - but most people don't just attend Church randomly.

I can understand the problem with a situation like the one you describe.  You did the right thing by leaving.  Continuing to participate in the life of the church and not financially support the ministry is a bit of a welfare mentality IMO.

 

[Timothy]

Lots of bitterness towards pastors displayed on this thread. 

FWIW none of our pastors makes more than $50,000 and the most expensive of their houses goes about $180,000. All three of their wives work. None of them drive big/fancy/expensive cars. Not sure what any of that has to do with why or how much you give to church.  :-\

Church we left paid out 50% of it's money received to the pastor. He got about $100,000 .... his wife would complain about their "small" home (tell the Church God was testing them) and finally God gave them a bigger home and bigger mortgage. Bitterness? I don't know ... just seemed wrong to take so much when many of the members made so little, and nothing really was done to reach the lost with the money. Well - we did have services - but most people don't just attend Church randomly.

I can understand the problem with a situation like the one you describe.  You did the right thing by leaving.  Continuing to participate in the life of the church and not financially support the ministry is a bit of a welfare mentality IMO.

I suppose it can be seen as a welfare mentality. But, would you suggest we just stop attending? We do give a little - but not 10% ... and like I said, we help ...

 

[ALAYMAN]

I agree with this. Either way, success isn't often an indication of what's right.

Yeah, I concur that pragmatism and "ends justify the means" shouldn't be the deciding factor for how to determine proper doctrine, but my point was more along the lines of the Nike philosophy...."just do it", much the same way people argue over which is the best evangelism method but seldom put feet to their arguments.  It's abundantly clear that no matter how a church approaches the subject of giving that the congregants pretty much do their own thing.....the Frank Sinatra way.

 

[4everfsu]

I knew of a Baptist church in Tampa Fl, where the pastor a graduate of Crown college, got old church member ladies to leave their wills/homes to the church. No one knows what happened to all the money, and after a couple of years, he announced he was leaving to take a secular job in Tn and that his wife and kids had to stay in the parsonage for six months. Plus he said the church should give him a parting gift of $50k. The church was dumb enough to give him 50K, not sure how it worked out for his family staying in the parsonage. This was a small church maybe 200 to 300 members at one time. Then the membership started to drop, and someone offered to buy the church and property but some members did not want that to happen.

The buildings sits empty and what church members are left merged with another church  in the area.

By the way I send my offerings to a missionary who travels around the world, used to be my former pastor, one of the few I trust.
And to a Romanian children home whose missionaries knows the missionary above I talked about.

 

[graceandtruth]

Lots of bitterness towards pastors displayed on this thread. 

FWIW none of our pastors makes more than $50,000 and the most expensive of their houses goes about $180,000. All three of their wives work. None of them drive big/fancy/expensive cars. Not sure what any of that has to do with why or how much you give to church.  :-\

Church we left paid out 50% of it's money received to the pastor. He got about $100,000 .... his wife would complain about their "small" home (tell the Church God was testing them) and finally God gave them a bigger home and bigger mortgage. Bitterness? I don't know ... just seemed wrong to take so much when many of the members made so little, and nothing really was done to reach the lost with the money. Well - we did have services - but most people don't just attend Church randomly.

I can understand the problem with a situation like the one you describe.  You did the right thing by leaving.  Continuing to participate in the life of the church and not financially support the ministry is a bit of a welfare mentality IMO.

I suppose it can be seen as a welfare mentality. But, would you suggest we just stop attending? We do give a little - but not 10% ... and like I said, we help ...

I would say you need to be a part of a congregation that you can support wholeheartedly.  I don't think you giving less than 10% if that is all you can currently afford is a problem.  If it a matter of lack of trust for the financial aspect of the ministry then I would say it is time to find a congregation where this would not be a problem.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Lots of bitterness towards pastors displayed on this thread. 

FWIW none of our pastors makes more than $50,000 and the most expensive of their houses goes about $180,000. All three of their wives work. None of them drive big/fancy/expensive cars. Not sure what any of that has to do with why or how much you give to church.  :-\

Because you have preachers that preach that you should give a 10% to the church. The really fun ones then say that once you give it, you shouldn't question how it is spent because that's the job of the leadership. So "give 10% no matter what and you shouldn't hold people accountable". Couple that with getting $5 handmade Christmas cards in the mail from the church, and we decided to figure out better ways to give.

I'd rather buy my neighbors groceries for a couple weeks than give to the church so they can use it to buy handmade Christmas cards and iPhones for their staff.

As was noted earlier by someone else; why would anyone be a member of a church that handled finances that way? Seems a more important point than the money.

I am thankful that I haven't been subjected to anything like that.

Why would they indeed?
I'm also thankful that, by the grace of God I have escaped the idiocy some here have experienced.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I knew of a Baptist church in Tampa Fl, where the pastor a graduate of Crown college, got old church member ladies to leave their wills/homes to the church. No one knows what happened to all the money, and after a couple of years, he announced he was leaving to take a secular job in Tn and that his wife and kids had to stay in the parsonage for six months. Plus he said the church should give him a parting gift of $50k. The church was dumb enough to give him 50K, not sure how it worked out for his family staying in the parsonage. This was a small church maybe 200 to 300 members at one time. Then the membership started to drop, and someone offered to buy the church and property but some members did not want that to happen.

The buildings sits empty and what church members are left merged with another church  in the area.

By the way I send my offerings to a missionary who travels around the world, used to be my former pastor, one of the few I trust.
And to a Romanian children home whose missionaries knows the missionary above I talked about.

Rick, you know that the old THBC property is now an elementary school, and the church, what's left of it, meets in a small house around the corner from 46th St.?

 

[lnf]

Hence, should a church staff member tithe? 

Absolutely, a church staff member should tithe.  Even if one considers only the necessities, such as lights, water, phones, etc., each member should participate in the cost of keeping the doors open.

As for my use of the word "tithe", I'm not talking about a specific percentage of giving.  To me, it's a handy word to describe "undesignated" offerings.  The amount of giving is between the giver and God.

Tell you what. Let all those that believe in tithing keep tithing.

Keep tithing instead of paying for your children's education. Keep tithing and running up your credit card bills that you will never pay off. Keep tithing and forget about contributing to a retirement account. After all, you can live off the government. Keep tithing and believing THATS what makes it so you have ANY MONEY AT ALL. Keep tithing and watch your church store up more money than you make in an entire year..... just to let it sit until God divinely influences your pastor/deacon board to add reserved parking spaces for them with everyone's name on it at the church. Or until God breathes and tells them all the church pews need replacing or the light fixtures have been around for 10 years and they need a refresh.....

Just keep on tithing.

Goodness!  What a popular, yet contentious, subject this is.  It seems like there is a lot of negative connotation attached to the word "tithe".

Apparently, I made a huge faux pas by assuming that my second paragraph would explain my particular use of the word "tithe".  Honestly, I meant it in the sense of giving to the "general fund"...you know, the one that pays the light bill, the water bill, etc., not as a percentage of income (which I do know is the historical, biblical definition).  Henceforth, I will not use the word "tithe" unless I mean 10%.   

After reading the many posts since mine, I have a few questions...

1.  Is it common practice that people contribute so much to the church (by giving a strict 10% on gross income) that they deplete their personal finances to the detriment of their families?

2.  Do people think the average church leadership doesn't practice good stewardship in determining how "general fund" offerings are disbursed?

3.  Do people think that owning property/buildings, creating the the need for monies to pay for upkeep, maintenance, repair, utility bill payments, etc.,  is a waste of "general fund" offerings?

4. How common is it that church members give nothing at all in support of the church, even as they enjoy the lights, air conditioning and flushing toilets each Sunday morning?   

 

[4everfsu]

I knew of a Baptist church in Tampa Fl, where the pastor a graduate of Crown college, got old church member ladies to leave their wills/homes to the church. No one knows what happened to all the money, and after a couple of years, he announced he was leaving to take a secular job in Tn and that his wife and kids had to stay in the parsonage for six months. Plus he said the church should give him a parting gift of $50k. The church was dumb enough to give him 50K, not sure how it worked out for his family staying in the parsonage. This was a small church maybe 200 to 300 members at one time. Then the membership started to drop, and someone offered to buy the church and property but some members did not want that to happen.

The buildings sits empty and what church members are left merged with another church  in the area.

By the way I send my offerings to a missionary who travels around the world, used to be my former pastor, one of the few I trust.
And to a Romanian children home whose missionaries knows the missionary above I talked about.

Rick, you know that the old THBC property is now an elementary school, and the church, what's left of it, meets in a small house around the corner from 46th St.?

TB yep I know that about THBC, what I wrote earlier is a different Baptist church. BTW I drove down 46th street once THBC was demolished and school replaced. Very sad, the sacrifices church members made to build the church. I will never drive that route again.

 

[Vandal]

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I knew of a Baptist church in Tampa Fl, where the pastor a graduate of Crown college, got old church member ladies to leave their wills/homes to the church. No one knows what happened to all the money, and after a couple of years, he announced he was leaving to take a secular job in Tn and that his wife and kids had to stay in the parsonage for six months. Plus he said the church should give him a parting gift of $50k. The church was dumb enough to give him 50K, not sure how it worked out for his family staying in the parsonage. This was a small church maybe 200 to 300 members at one time. Then the membership started to drop, and someone offered to buy the church and property but some members did not want that to happen.

The buildings sits empty and what church members are left merged with another church  in the area.

By the way I send my offerings to a missionary who travels around the world, used to be my former pastor, one of the few I trust.
And to a Romanian children home whose missionaries knows the missionary above I talked about.

Rick, you know that the old THBC property is now an elementary school, and the church, what's left of it, meets in a small house around the corner from 46th St.?

TB yep I know that about THBC, what I wrote earlier is a different Baptist church. BTW I drove down 46th street once THBC was demolished and school replaced. Very sad, the sacrifices church members made to build the church. I will never drive that route again.

I knew you weren't referring to THBC, just reminded me of the sad saga of RLS' empire....sad indeed....Bill Thacker still lives in the same house across the street.

 

[Vandal]

The Tithe was food Lev 27:30, 27:32. The Temple Tax Ex 30:11-16 was money.

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

http://www.freedomtogive.net/

 

[BALAAM]

This is a sore spot with me because the last few years that I attended fbch the tithe teaching went way beyond a simple 10% of your income. They have/had a guy there who taught, "If you haven't tithed on all; you haven't tithed at all!"

He said that if you receive a health plan where you work that you are to find out what it costs and pay 10% on that. He said that if you receive anything from your job in the way of benefits or increase that are not money you are to pay 10% of the value. If you get free meals (which he did from the college) you were to tithe on that. If someone gave you a free haircut you were to tithe on that, etc. And if not you are a thief and a robber.

If you were in any kind of financial bind it was most likely because when you were a kid you probably went to a parade and they threw out candy and you forgot to tithe on that candy. (or something equally as silly) You were to go back and figure out how much you owed and add the fifth part and pay it back.

He was teaching in a Sunday School class once on, you guessed it, tithing. He asked for questions and comments. I raised my hand and asked him if we as a church were causing people to sin because we brought in homeless people and nursing home people without a dime in their pockets and fed them a meal at the church when we KNEW they would not tithe on it.

We will draw the curtain of charity around the rest of the class!

 

[BALAAM]

This is a sore spot with me because the last few years that I attended fbch the tithe teaching went way beyond a simple 10% of your income. They have/had a guy there who taught, "If you haven't tithed on all; you haven't tithed at all!"

He said that if you receive a health plan where you work that you are to find out what it costs and pay 10% on that. He said that if you receive anything from your job in the way of benefits or increase that are not money you are to pay 10% of the value. If you get free meals (which he did from the college) you were to tithe on that. If someone gave you a free haircut you were to tithe on that, etc. And if not you are a thief and a robber.

If you were in any kind of financial bind it was most likely because when you were a kid you probably went to a parade and they threw out candy and you forgot to tithe on that candy. (or something equally as silly) You were to go back and figure out how much you owed and add the fifth part and pay it back.

He was teaching in a Sunday School class once on, you guessed it, tithing. He asked for questions and comments. I raised my hand and asked him if we as a church were causing people to sin because we brought in homeless people and nursing home people without a dime in their pockets and fed them a meal at the church when we KNEW they would not tithe on it.

We will draw the curtain of charity around the rest of the class!

I also asked him if, when in the OT the landowners were required to leave some of the crops standing for the poor and the widows to have something to eat, if the poor and widows were required to tithe on what they gleaned. He said they were.

Another one of the nut jobs they have there used to teach that  you also owe a tithe on your time and your talents. That means that if there are 168 hours in a week that you owe God 16.8 hours of your time. If not then you are a thief. He said that if you work 40 hours in a week as a carpenter then you owe God 4 hours a week doing carpentry, babysitting, accounting, whatever it is you have a talent for.

I told him he had a very suburban view of the scriptures. I said that I had a grandfather who worked a regular job for 8 hours a day and came home and milked cows and in the summer time worked in the fields until dark. He was up at 4 AM to milk cows again, left for work 8 or 9 hours, came home and did it again. I said, "How in the world was he supposed to accomplish all that?" Reminds me of the people in the NT who bound people with grievous burdens that they or there forefathers could not bear.