Was Jacob actually wrestling with God?

[bgwilkinson]

Gen 32:30  And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.


Gill has this to say.

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,.... In Gen_32:31; Penuel, which signifies the face of God, or God hath looked upon me, or hath had respect to me: there was afterwards a city built here, called by the same name; see Jdg_8:8; it is said (k) to be four miles from Mahanaim; the reason of it follows:

for I have seen God face to face: it may be observed, that in wrestling men are face to face, and in this position were Jacob and the man that wrestled with him; which he seems to have respect unto, as well as to the familiarity and intimate communion he was admitted to:

and my life is preserved: though he had wrestled with one so vastly superior to himself, who could have easily crushed this worm Jacob to pieces, as he is sometimes called; and though he had had such a sight of God as face to faces referring, as is thought, to a notion that obtained early, even among good men, that upon sight of God a man instantly died; though we have no example of that kind: but perhaps he observed this for his encouragement; that whereas he had met with God himself, and wrestled with him in the form of a man, and yet was preserved, he doubted not that, when he should meet with his brother and debate matters with him, he should be safe and unhurt.


As I said before I believe it was God Himself in a human body that could interact safely with Jacob and at the same time hide the glory which if Jacob was exposed to it would have killed him.

One more thing the Hebrew word that is translated as God is a noun masculine plural which would indicate more than one person. The three in one are herein indicated.

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'e?lo?h??ym

 

[Alter2Ego]

I am curious about your above dismissive response.

You noticed it was dismissive, huh? I guess you have to get up early in the morning to slip one by you.

By the way, it was your playing coy about your beliefs, followed by your "I see you are Trinitarians" schtick (as if that comes as any surprise on a Christian forum), and now the litany of factoids about the Trinity doctrine, that showed me that you weren't on the level, but just waiting for an opening to start in with your sales pitch.

Want to debate? Come back when you've grown some honesty. I don't debate with people who don't deal straight with me.

Ransom:

It should be obvious to anyone reading this thread by now that you are not interested in discussing the Trinity doctrine--not when you have to compare that particular doctrine against what the Bible really has to say.  I believe everyone gets that.  I also get it that your method for bowing out of a discussion on Trinity is to hurl schoolyard insults at those who do not agree with your religious beliefs.

BTW:  No doubt you can quote me making at least one (1) statement on this forum that, to any reasonable person, would be considered "coy" and dishonest.  Can you do that?

I will watch for your quotation along that line.


Alter2Ego

 

[Ransom]

It should be obvious to anyone reading this thread by now that you are not interested in discussing the Trinity doctrine

Also obvious: Your sour grapes.

Have a nice day.

 

[Alter2Ego]

That doesn't mean that God could not appear as a man, or perhaps it was Jesus in a pre-incarnation appearance.

Walt:

No doubt you will provide us at least one scriptural quotation that supports your speculation, to quote you: "That doesn't mean that God could not appear as a man."


Alter2Ego

Well, I would have thought it self-evident.

However, we know from Scripture that God walked with Adam and Even in the garden of Eden, and they were not consumed.

Jesus said "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" - and many saw Jesus and did not die.

The passages you quoted were about seeing God in the fullness of His glory.  No  man in this flesh can see God that way and live.

Walt:

You are relying on figurative speech.  Adam and Eve would not have survived if they had literally seen Jehovah's face, and nowhere in the Genesis account does it say that they literally looked at the face of the Almighty.  Recall what God told Moses when the latter asked to see God's glory.

"But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" (Exodus 33:20 -- New American Standard Bible)

Were Adam and Eve humans?  Yes or no?


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Gen 32:30  And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

bgwilkinson:

You are relying on figurative speech.  The scripture at Exodus 33:20 makes it quite clear that no human can literally see the face of Almighty God Jehovah and live.

Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

As I said before I believe it was God Himself in a human body that could interact safely with Jacob and at the same time hide the glory which if Jacob was exposed to it would have killed him.

bgwilkinson:

What you choose to believe and what scripture says are two entirely different things.  The scripture at Exodus 33:20 provides no exception when it says no man can see God and live:

"He [Jehovah] further said [to Moses], Thou canst not see my face; for no man shall see me and live." (Exodus 33:20 -- Jubilee Bible 2000)

Your insistence that God reduced himself into human form that would not kill Jacob,  because God hid his full glory, is simply your attempt at talking your way around scripture--in order to keep the Trinity doctrine alive.  To quote you:

God Himself in a human body that could interact safely with Jacob and at the same time hide the glory which if Jacob was exposed to it would have killed him.

Remember, the Trinity doctrine did not become "official" Christian teaching until the 4th century AD, some 300 years after Jesus Christ returned to heavenly life.  You are arguing for a doctrine that is contradicted repeatedly by scripture.


Alter2Ego

 

[Twisted]

Gen 32:30  And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

bgwilkinson:

You are relying on figurative speech.  The scripture at Exodus 33:20 makes it quite clear that no human can literally see the face of Almighty God Jehovah and live.

Alter2Ego

Good discussion.  Haven't read the whole thread.  True, no human can look on God's face because He doesn't have one.  God is Spirit.  God Himself uses anthropomorphisms throughout scripture so we can attempt to understand Him.  They only time we see "God" is when He manifests Himself as the Angel of the Lord.

 

[Ransom]

They only time we see "God" is when He manifests Himself as the Angel of the Lord.

Jesus is God.  He was not merely the angel of the Lord. He was both truly God and truly human. That was no mere "figurative language," as Alter2Ego likes to handwave away any other instance of God visibly entering into his creation. The disciples could therefore see God face to face without fearing for their lives.

 

[Twisted]

They only time we see "God" is when He manifests Himself as the Angel of the Lord.

Jesus is God.  He was not merely the angel of the Lord. He was both truly God and truly human. That was no mere "figurative language," as Alter2Ego likes to handwave away any other instance of God visibly entering into his creation. The disciples could therefore see God face to face without fearing for their lives.

Of course you are correct.  My response was related to the OT times of the OP.

 

[Walt]

That doesn't mean that God could not appear as a man, or perhaps it was Jesus in a pre-incarnation appearance.

Walt:

No doubt you will provide us at least one scriptural quotation that supports your speculation, to quote you: "That doesn't mean that God could not appear as a man."


Alter2Ego

Well, I would have thought it self-evident.

However, we know from Scripture that God walked with Adam and Even in the garden of Eden, and they were not consumed.

Jesus said "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" - and many saw Jesus and did not die.

The passages you quoted were about seeing God in the fullness of His glory.  No  man in this flesh can see God that way and live.

Walt:

You are relying on figurative speech.  Adam and Eve would not have survived if they had literally seen Jehovah's face, and nowhere in the Genesis account does it say that they literally looked at the face of the Almighty.  Recall what God told Moses when the latter asked to see God's glory.

So, apparently for you "figurative speech" means any Bible instance that proves you wrong.  What authority or basis do you have for calling this "figurative speech" and not assuming it was the literal truth?

"But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" (Exodus 33:20 -- New American Standard Bible)

You keep returning to the same passage in Exodus to prove your point.  However, you must take it in context.  Moses had asked to see God in all of His glory - something like "show me thy glory".  It was in response to this request that God stated that no human being could see Him in such a state and live."

You are twisting this one passage in order to fit what you want to believe, instead of letting the Scriptures harmonize as a whole.

Were Adam and Eve humans?  Yes or no?

Alter2Ego

Not sure what this has to do with the discussion, but yes.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Well, I would have thought it self-evident.

However, we know from Scripture that God walked with Adam and Even in the garden of Eden, and they were not consumed.

The passages you quoted were about seeing God in the fullness of His glory.  No  man in this flesh can see God that way and live.

Walt:

You are relying on figurative speech.  Adam and Eve would not have survived if they had literally seen Jehovah's face, and nowhere in the Genesis account does it say that they literally looked at the face of the Almighty.  Recall what God told Moses when the latter asked to see God's glory.

So, apparently for you "figurative speech" means any Bible instance that proves you wrong.  What authority or basis do you have for calling this "figurative speech" and not assuming it was the literal truth?

You keep returning to the same passage in Exodus to prove your point.  However, you must take it in context.  Moses had asked to see God in all of His glory - something like "show me thy glory".  It was in response to this request that God stated that no human being could see Him in such a state and live."

You are twisting this one passage in order to fit what you want to believe, instead of letting the Scriptures harmonize as a whole.

Walt:

The authority is the scripture at Exodus 30:20 that you claim I am "twisting"--because you realize you cannot overcome it.  Your other complaint is that I "keep returning to the same passage."  Right.  I keep returning to it because you have no way of overcoming it.  It should be clear to any honest-hearted person reading this thread that nothing about Exodus 33:20 is being twisted and that you simply refuse to be corrected by scripture due to your preference for traditions of men aka Trinity.

In your failed attempt at talking your way around Exodus 33:20, you are now telling the rest of us what you believe--namely, that the verse only applies to God's full glory and that at other times, people can indeed see God's face.  Notice below the quotation from Exodus 33:20, and this time, I am quoting two of the verses that are part of its context.  After you have read it, show us where it says anything about people being able to see God's face at other times.   

"{18} And he [Moses] said, Let me, I pray thee, see thy glory. {19} And he [God] said, I will make all my goodness pass before thy face, and I will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. {20} And he [God] said, Thou canst not see my face; for Man shall not see me, and live." (Exodus 33:20 -- Darby Bible Translation)


Now, suppose you point out to the rest of us where, within the context of those verses, Jehovah gives an exception as to when humans can literally see his face.  Quote something that supports your argument that God contradicted himself when he told Moses that no man can see him and live.

This I cannot wait to see.


Alter2Ego

 

[Ransom]

You are relying on figurative speech.

While "I have seen God face to face" is indeed figurative speech, it does not help the case that God himself cannot appear to a human being.

You cannot merely handwave away figurative language as though it has no meaning at all. Rather, it is necessary to interpret the figure and determine what it actually means.

"Face to face" is a metaphor, specifically a synecdoche, a figure in which a part stands dor the whole., Of course, we all know what it means to meet someone face to face. It means no telephone, no Skype, no lawyers, no mediators. To meet face to face means to meet in person.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Were Adam and Eve humans?  Yes or no?

Alter2Ego

Not sure what this has to do with the discussion, but yes.

Walt:

By your own admission, Adam and Eve were humans.  Yet, at Post 39 you suggest that Adam and Eve must have literally seen God while they were in the Garden of Eden.

Well, I would have thought it self-evident.

However, we know from Scripture that God walked with Adam and Even in the garden of Eden, and they were not consumed.

Now, back to Exodus 33:20--the same verse of scripture that you cannot stomach and which I keep quoting.  Notice the words that are bolded and underlined within the quotation.

"But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" (Exodus 33:20 -- New American Standard Bible)


Now do you now see the connection between Adam and Eve being human, when compared to what is stated at Exodus 33:20, and how it connects to this discussion?  Or could it be you simply do not want to see the connection?


Alter2Ego

 

[Twisted]

By your own admission, Adam and Eve were humans.  Yet, at Post 39 you suggest that Adam and Eve must have literally seen God while they were in the Garden of Eden.

He may have "suggested" it, but I know of no scripture that says they ever "saw" God.

You are also forgetting that Adam and Eve were created as sinless immortals.  I would argue that "IF" they did "see" God as sinless immortals, the rules were different than after the fall.  How could they die if they did "see" God?  They couldn't die.  Ever.  Of course, just speculation as the scripture is silent (as far as I know).

 

[Walt]

Were Adam and Eve humans?  Yes or no?

Alter2Ego

Not sure what this has to do with the discussion, but yes.

Walt:

By your own admission, Adam and Eve were humans.  Yet, at Post 39 you suggest that Adam and Eve must have literally seen God while they were in the Garden of Eden.

Well, I would have thought it self-evident.

However, we know from Scripture that God walked with Adam and Even in the garden of Eden, and they were not consumed.

Yes, certainly Adam and Eve saw God and were human.  You are saying, as I understand it, that since Adam & Eve were not consumed, and Exodus 33:20 says that no man can see God's face, and live, that either Adam & Eve were not human, or else they did not see God face to face.

Now, back to Exodus 33:20--the same verse of scripture that you cannot stomach and which I keep quoting.  Notice the words that are bolded and underlined within the quotation.

"But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" (Exodus 33:20 -- New American Standard Bible)


Now do you now see the connection between Adam and Eve being human, when compared to what is stated at Exodus 33:20, and how it connects to this discussion?  Or could it be you simply do not want to see the connection?

I love Ex 33:20.  But you are using ONE Scritpure and twisting everything else to fit it. This is why it is so important to take the Bible as a whole and not let just one passage trump everything else.

I think I summarized the dichotomy you are proposing above.  But I believe that there is another option you aren't considering, and that is that your understanding of Ex 33:20 is at fault.  Moses wanted to see God as He is, and that is impossible for our human frame.  Consider, when the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, the brightness blinded people.  Our God is far more brilliant than an atomic bomb - He is light, and His brightness is such that to behold Him would consume us.  I fully believe this, based upon Ex 33:20.

But I also believe that God is capable of "turning down the brightness" (as it were) to allow Him to be seen by Adam & Eve, and Abraham, and others whom the Scriptures say "saw God". Jesus Himself said "He who has seen me hath seen the Father".

 

[Walt]

Well, I would have thought it self-evident.

However, we know from Scripture that God walked with Adam and Even in the garden of Eden, and they were not consumed.

The passages you quoted were about seeing God in the fullness of His glory.  No  man in this flesh can see God that way and live.

Walt:

You are relying on figurative speech.  Adam and Eve would not have survived if they had literally seen Jehovah's face, and nowhere in the Genesis account does it say that they literally looked at the face of the Almighty.  Recall what God told Moses when the latter asked to see God's glory.

So, apparently for you "figurative speech" means any Bible instance that proves you wrong.  What authority or basis do you have for calling this "figurative speech" and not assuming it was the literal truth?

You keep returning to the same passage in Exodus to prove your point.  However, you must take it in context.  Moses had asked to see God in all of His glory - something like "show me thy glory".  It was in response to this request that God stated that no human being could see Him in such a state and live."

You are twisting this one passage in order to fit what you want to believe, instead of letting the Scriptures harmonize as a whole.

Walt:

The authority is the scripture at Exodus 30:20 that you claim I am "twisting"--because you realize you cannot overcome it.  Your other complaint is that I "keep returning to the same passage."  Right.  I keep returning to it because you have no way of overcoming it.

I am not trying to "overcome" Ex 33:20; I love the passage.  I just suggest that your understanding of it is faulty, because it does not harmonize with the many other Scriptures that DO show people talking with God.

It should be clear to any honest-hearted person reading this thread that nothing about Exodus 33:20 is being twisted and that you simply refuse to be corrected by scripture due to your preference for traditions of men aka Trinity.

In your failed attempt at talking your way around Exodus 33:20, you are now telling the rest of us what you believe--namely, that the verse only applies to God's full glory and that at other times, people can indeed see God's face.  Notice below the quotation from Exodus 33:20, and this time, I am quoting two of the verses that are part of its context.  After you have read it, show us where it says anything about people being able to see God's face at other times.

   

"{18} And he [Moses] said, Let me, I pray thee, see thy glory. {19} And he [God] said, I will make all my goodness pass before thy face, and I will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. {20} And he [God] said, Thou canst not see my face; for Man shall not see me, and live." (Exodus 33:20 -- Darby Bible Translation)


Now, suppose you point out to the rest of us where, within the context of those verses, Jehovah gives an exception as to when humans can literally see his face.  Quote something that supports your argument that God contradicted himself when he told Moses that no man can see him and live.

There is nothing in those verses - you are imposing an artificial limit.  My authority is the entire Bible, and there are clearly other passages that state that God has met face-to-face with people (Adam & Eve, Abraham, Jacob, and others) and they were not consumed.  Based upon those, your interpretation of Ex 33:20 is at fault.  (You remind me of the poster on an older FFF who claimed, based on I Tim 2:15, that women must bear children in order to be saved.)  The Bible must be understood as a whole, and, if my understanding of one verse doesn't fit with many other verses, then my understanding of the one verse is false. There seem to be many other verses in which people have seen God and weren't destroyed, so I believe what you are claiming for Ex 33:30 is incorrect.

This I cannot wait to see.


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

By your own admission, Adam and Eve were humans.  Yet, at Post 39 you suggest that Adam and Eve must have literally seen God while they were in the Garden of Eden.

He may have "suggested" it, but I know of no scripture that says they ever "saw" God.

You are also forgetting that Adam and Eve were created as sinless immortals.  I would argue that "IF" they did "see" God as sinless immortals, the rules were different than after the fall. How could they die if they did "see" God?  They couldn't die.  Ever.  Of course, just speculation as the scripture is silent (as far as I know).

Twisted:

Your speculation is yours and yours alone.  It has no scriptural backing, as you yourself conceded. 

The verse at Exodus 33:20 does not make any mention of whether or not sinlessness is an exception for humans being able to literally see God's face. 

"'But,' he [Jehovah] said, 'You cannot see my face, because a man cannot see me and live.'" (Exodus 33:20 -- International Standard Version)

See that?  I quoted that verse from at least three different Bible translations thus far--including the King James Version that is favored by many--and none of them provide an exception for when humans can literally see the face of the Almighty.  That fact poses a serious problem for the Trinity doctrine, because the argument there is that Jesus is God and that Jesus' face was repeatedly seen by those around him.


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Walt:

By your own admission, Adam and Eve were humans.  Yet, at Post 39 you suggest that Adam and Eve must have literally seen God while they were in the Garden of Eden.

Well, I would have thought it self-evident.

However, we know from Scripture that God walked with Adam and Even in the garden of Eden, and they were not consumed.

Yes, certainly Adam and Eve saw God and were human.  You are saying, as I understand it, that since Adam & Eve were not consumed, and Exodus 33:20 says that no man can see God's face, and live, that either Adam & Eve were not human, or else they did not see God face to face.

Walt:

You know perfectly well that you are only left with the choice that is bolded in light blue.  I would be a complete fool to suggest that Adam and Eve were not humans--considering the fact that all other humans came from those two.  The Bible itself says that Adam and Eve were humans aka mankind aka man and that they were the progenitors of all other humans.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26 -- King James Bible)


"And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place," (Acts 17:26 -- English Standard Version)



I will address more of your comments in separate posts.

Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Now, back to Exodus 33:20--the same verse of scripture that you cannot stomach and which I keep quoting.  Notice the words that are bolded and underlined within the quotation.

"But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" (Exodus 33:20 -- New American Standard Bible)


Now do you now see the connection between Adam and Eve being human, when compared to what is stated at Exodus 33:20, and how it connects to this discussion?  Or could it be you simply do not want to see the connection?

I love Ex 33:20.  But you are using ONE Scritpure and twisting everything else to fit it. This is why it is so important to take the Bible as a whole and not let just one passage trump everything else.

Walt:

You keep claiming that I am twisting Exodus 33:20, which clearly says no man can see God and live.  What is there about that to be "twisted," as you keep claiming?

To top it off, you are telling me to take the Bible as a whole and "not let just one passage trump everything else."  What "everything else" are you referring to?  Thus far, we have been discussion one single thing:  the fact that no man can see God literally.  That is your idea of "everything else"?

By the way, there are other verses of scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible that similarly state that Almighty God has never been literally seen by a human.


Alter2Ego