What think ye??

subllibrm said:
pastorryanhayden said:
No one is saying its not tragic.
No one is saying Zimmerman was a hero. 
Without being an eyewitness or inside Zimmerman's head, how can you say he wasn't acting suspicious? 
Yes.  You were able to find one news story of a man pulled over for "driving black".  That proves we are still a racist country.  So racist we elected a black president with a Muslim sounding name in two consecutive landslide elections.
There is enough in Zimmerman's past to know this whole thing  probably wasn't racially motivated.  Yet it was turned into a media/race circus and a trial by public opinion.
Some of us are glad the justice system still operates under the presumption of innocence and juries still have to convict criminals of specific crimes.
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Pastor, your normally calm and reasoned demeanor is failing you here. The link shows not one but many instances which indicates you didn't read it.

My point is that much of the rationalizing of why Zimmerman may have been suspicious is racially tinged. Wearing a hoodie is "thug"? Really? We better get those girls in our youth group to stop wearing them ASAP! Do you ever wear a white tank t-shirt? Does that make you a wife beater? Go back and read the thread and look for the code words. They are there. I can see them and I not black.

And I didn't say we are a racist country. I said that there is still a different set of rules for being a young black man than there is for being white. That was brother Mohler's point. Do you need to have a talk with your boys about how to react when they are pulled over for looking out of place in the neighborhood? You don't. I don't Mohler doesn't. Why do black fathers feel the need to educate their kids that way? Because there is still prejudice.
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Where is graceandtruth when you need him. Looks like you've taken up his arguments to some degree.

Black fathers are forcing their children to look for racism everywhere they look. Too often, their first thought is to look for racism in ANYTHING that happens. Its sad. Horribly sad to have such a mentality. I have been stereotyped all my life for having a southern accent. I have been stereotyped as a hillbilly redneck always looking for trouble. I have been profiled by police and purposely over looked in job promotions because of said accent. I have had to adjust to get much of anywhere in this life. I don't go around looking for signs of people's bias towards me. I know a black man is going to tell me "you don't understand". "you will never understand"..... truth is.... BLACK PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE A MONOPOLY ON BEING STEREOTYPED TO THE POINT OF RACISM. They don't.

I can hear it now. Poor little cracker. Pretending he's got it bad. We'll go ahead... Say what you want. Believe whatever makes you feel better. The truth of the matter is..... You're not hurting anyone but yourself. Often you're the one spreading your "counter bias". Your fight for equality is turning to a fight for superiority. Its the nature of man. It happens across every race of mankind. Every race.

 
Few things are more crippling than a victim mentality.
I know it's not Bible, but I think it's true.  The first of the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People is "Be Proactive."  You cannot be proactive and be a victim at the same time.  It's impossible. 
Of all the African American's I've met and known in my lifetime, I've never met one who bettered his life in any tiny way by convincing himself that he was a victim.  (That's actually true of everyone, not just African Americans.) 
You play the hand that was dealt you, you don't whine about your cards.  Whether that means you are a gangly, 6' 2" 150lb displaced bookish New England Yankee or a poor black kid.  You never make your life better by whining about what you do not have.
When this kind of thing goes on and is endorsed on a national level - the only group it hurts is African Americans. 
 
christundivided said:
Where is graceandtruth when you need him.
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I think he decided not to hang out with creepy-ass crackas anymore. 

 
pastorryanhayden said:
Few things are more crippling than a victim mentality.
I know it's not Bible, but I think it's true.  The first of the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People is "Be Proactive."  You cannot be proactive and be a victim at the same time.  It's impossible.
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But is it a victim mentality (or enabling of one) to acknowledge that to be black in America is a fundamentally different experience than being white?

While anecdotes are indicative of only one person's experience, they can be indicative of a larger truth. Case in point: my wife's co-worker, who is a black male in his late 20s, lives in an affluent, mostly white, suburb in the upper Midwest. Since moving there, he has been pulled over by the police several times and asked where he was going, why he was in the area, and one time even forced to show his driver's license to prove he lived there. He has been issued no tickets. His wife (who is white) has never been pulled over on her way home.

He has learned (much as Mohler discusses) how to deal with police so as not to escalate the situation. He has a generally positive attitude, doesn't play the victim, and effuses about how he loves his white friends.

So again I ask, can't we acknowledge that racism still exits, that it actually affects people, and that we (as whites) have a responsibility to do something about it?
 
ddgently said:
While anecdotes are indicative of only one person's experience, they can be indicative of a larger truth. Case in point: my wife's co-worker, who is a black male in his late 20s, lives in an affluent, mostly white, suburb in the upper Midwest. Since moving there, he has been pulled over by the police several times and asked where he was going, why he was in the area, and one time even forced to show his driver's license to prove he lived there. He has been issued no tickets. His wife (who is white) has never been pulled over on her way home.
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I have no doubt this happens, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Zimmerman case.  The neighborhood was not affluent and mostly white.  And Zimmerman has a long history of non-racism.  So injecting race into this case was purely fabricated and political. 

If your point is that black people can sometimes be real victims, try (if you're white) walking into some of the rougher black neighborhoods and see what kind of treatment you get. 

 
What castor said.

I never said that there were no incidents of race or racial profiling.  Racism is a problem.  But it's a problem that will have to be remedied not by white people but by blacks.  Saying its a systemic problem, when the system has plenty of blacks one it and blacks at the top, doesn't make sense.

If I were a black father and had to have "the talk" with my son, I think it would go something like this:

Son, unfortunately people with our skin color commit a vastly disproportionate amount of crimes, that causes people to sometimes profile us.  That's human nature.  You will be profiled more than people with different color skin, you need to rise above that.  The only way to change people's perception of our race is to change our behavior on an individual basis.  You be the man God wants you to be, be a part of the solution.

I'm afraid the prevailing attitude seems to be:

"the system is against us, there is nothing we can do about it. You can expect white people to distrust you just because of the color of your skin.  It's not fair."

One inspires proactive betterment and common sense the other determinist bitterness.  Which will do more good?

 
Castor Muscular said:
I have no doubt this happens, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Zimmerman case.  The neighborhood was not affluent and mostly white.  And Zimmerman has a long history of non-racism.  So injecting race into this case was purely fabricated and political.
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'

Almost everyone (excluding old grandpas and KKK Grand Wizards) has a "long history of non-racism." As a society, we have definitely made progress on this issue, as overt racist attitudes and actions are looked down upon. What would you expect to find if you dug into the history of an average 29-year-old?

However, the point of the anecdote (and the similar anecdotes almost anyone could find if they asked a black person) is that whether or not we would personally attend a cross-burning or lynching, most non-whites still view black males with suspicion. And that automatic suspicion may have led Zimmerman to follow Martin in the first place.

If your point is that black people can sometimes be real victims, try (if you're white) walking into some of the rougher black neighborhoods and see what kind of treatment you get.
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What is your point? That the fact there are racist blacks makes white racism okay?

My point was that we still live in a society where blacks are treated fundamentally and systemically differently than non-blacks, and that even those blacks who chose not to have a "victim mentality" are affected by the different treatment.
 
pastorryanhayden said:
What castor said.

I never said that there were no incidents of race or racial profiling.  Racism is a problem.  But it's a problem that will have to be remedied not by white people but by blacks.
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We'd agree that racism is a sin, right? So you're saying that it's the responsibility of the one sinned against to make the sinner stop sinning? Because "turn the other cheek" and "pray for the one that persecutes you" doesn't mean that, for example, we should stop being Christians to end persecution, does it?

Saying its a systemic problem, when the system has plenty of blacks one it and blacks at the top, doesn't make sense.
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Because Barack Obama and Eric Holder personally supervise the Pallooka County Police Department, right?

If I were a black father and had to have "the talk" with my son, I think it would go something like this:

Son, unfortunately people with our skin color commit a vastly disproportionate amount of crimes, that causes people to sometimes profile us.  That's human nature.  You will be profiled more than people with different color skin, you need to rise above that.  The only way to change people's perception of our race is to change our behavior on an individual basis.  You be the man God wants you to be, be a part of the solution.
Click to expand...

"Son, it's our own fault people are such terrible bigots. But if we just behave ourselves, maybe they'll let us alone."

I'm afraid the prevailing attitude seems to be:

"the system is against us, there is nothing we can do about it. You can expect white people to distrust you just because of the color of your skin.  It's not fair."
Click to expand...

Those last two sentences are true. I've never specifically heard someone from the black community advocate the first. It seems as though people are trying to do something about it.

One inspires proactive betterment and common sense the other determinist bitterness.  Which will do more good?
Click to expand...

Taking personal responsibility for your actions, no matter your race, will always do good. Trying to improve the collective actions of your community (i.e., preaching sermons) will always do good. But pretending that problems don't exist, or if they do exist it's not your responsibility to do what you can to improve them, will never do any good.
 
ddgently said:
What is your point? That the fact there are racist blacks makes white racism okay?
Click to expand...

I'm just supplementing your point that blacks and whites live with different experiences.  A black person in an affluent white neighborhood might be profiled.  A white person in a poor black neighborhood might be shot several times and get his throat cut.  Those are substantially different life experiences. 
 
Castor Muscular said:
I'm just supplementing your point that blacks and whites live with different experiences.  A black person in an affluent white neighborhood might be profiled.  A white person in a poor black neighborhood might be shot several times and get his throat cut.  Those are substantially different life experiences.
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A black person anywhere might get profiled. And I regularly spend time outside in a "poor black neighborhood" (after dark no less!) and I've never been threatened, let alone shot or slashed. I think the fact that you imagine that this is what will happen says a lot more about your own heart than the heart of the black community.
 
ddgently said:
Castor Muscular said:
I'm just supplementing your point that blacks and whites live with different experiences.  A black person in an affluent white neighborhood might be profiled.  A white person in a poor black neighborhood might be shot several times and get his throat cut.  Those are substantially different life experiences.
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A black person anywhere might get profiled. And I regularly spend time outside in a "poor black neighborhood" (after dark no less!) and I've never been threatened, let alone shot or slashed. I think the fact that you imagine that this is what will happen says a lot more about your own heart than the heart of the black community.
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A white person anywhere might get killed.  And a black person anywhere might get killed, too, and 94% of the time, he/she is killed by another black person. 

Congrats on having a nice poor black neighborhood nearby, but you don't read the news, much, do you? 

But please do continue.  We're making great progress proving nothing by citing individual anecdotal data points.
 
ddgently said:
pastorryanhayden said:
What castor said.

I never said that there were no incidents of race or racial profiling.  Racism is a problem.  But it's a problem that will have to be remedied not by white people but by blacks.
Click to expand...

We'd agree that racism is a sin, right? So you're saying that it's the responsibility of the one sinned against to make the sinner stop sinning? Because "turn the other cheek" and "pray for the one that persecutes you" doesn't mean that, for example, we should stop being Christians to end persecution, does it?

Saying its a systemic problem, when the system has plenty of blacks one it and blacks at the top, doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...

Because Barack Obama and Eric Holder personally supervise the Pallooka County Police Department, right?

If I were a black father and had to have "the talk" with my son, I think it would go something like this:

Son, unfortunately people with our skin color commit a vastly disproportionate amount of crimes, that causes people to sometimes profile us.  That's human nature.  You will be profiled more than people with different color skin, you need to rise above that.  The only way to change people's perception of our race is to change our behavior on an individual basis.  You be the man God wants you to be, be a part of the solution.
Click to expand...

"Son, it's our own fault people are such terrible bigots. But if we just behave ourselves, maybe they'll let us alone."

I'm afraid the prevailing attitude seems to be:

"the system is against us, there is nothing we can do about it. You can expect white people to distrust you just because of the color of your skin.  It's not fair."
Click to expand...

Those last two sentences are true. I've never specifically heard someone from the black community advocate the first. It seems as though people are trying to do something about it.

One inspires proactive betterment and common sense the other determinist bitterness.  Which will do more good?
Click to expand...

Taking personal responsibility for your actions, no matter your race, will always do good. Trying to improve the collective actions of your community (i.e., preaching sermons) will always do good. But pretending that problems don't exist, or if they do exist it's not your responsibility to do what you can to improve them, will never do any good.
Click to expand...

My point is that racial profiling does not a bigot nor a racist make, it makes you human.

I personally preach against racism.  When I feel my peers are being racist, I point it out. 

The Zimmerman case has nothing to do with white racism.  The "conversation" that has ensued since it has done nothing to end white racism but much to inflame black racism.  It was a circus from beginning to end and  was not a good place for a "black people have it so rough" conversation.
 
I spent three years working in rough black neighborhoods.  I discipled a guy who had a machine gun leaning against his front door out of fear of drug dealers (he was a former dealer himself.). I've seen countless drug deals going on.  While I've never personally felt endangered by all this, I think it's intellectually dishonest to talk about racial profiling without admitting that the black community has the brunt of the responsibility to bear.
 
Castor Muscular said:
A white person anywhere might get killed.  And a black person anywhere might get killed, too, and 94% of the time, he/she is killed by another black person. 
Click to expand...

Yes, but you implied that a white person is likely to get shot and slashed in a black neighborhood. Since you want data, where is yours to back up this assertion?

pastorryanhayden said:
My point is that racial profiling does not a bigot nor a racist make, it makes you human.
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Now you're just re-defining terms. What does racial profiling make you if not racist and a bigot? You could justify anything this way. "Lusting doesn't make me immoral, it just makes me human. Stealing doesn't make me a thief, it just makes me human." I've read you're blog and you're smarter than this. Let's not digress into word games.

pastorryanhayden said:
I spent three years working in rough black neighborhoods.  I discipled a guy who had a machine gun leaning against his front door out of fear of drug dealers (he was a former dealer himself.). I've seen countless drug deals going on.  While I've never personally felt endangered by all this, I think it's intellectually dishonest to talk about racial profiling without admitting that the black community has the brunt of the responsibility to bear.
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I just don't understand your position, and I'd honestly like you to enlighten me. I understand that blacks contribute to racial disharmony. But why do they have the brunt of the responsibility to bear?

4everfsu said:
Black are racists too. Besides the prosecution said this case was not racial profiling, but criminal profiling. Ok, the gang in the area wore hoodies, GZ sees a stranger wearing  a hoodie. That is what a neighborhood watch person does.
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A neighborhood watch person watches. He does not follow a suspect, confront, and kill said suspect.

4everfsu said:
Those who say if GZ stayed in his car TM would be alive. On the other side of the coin if TM stayed home that night he would be alive.
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Yeah, if those pesky blacks would just stay home and not be out . . . not causing any trouble at all . . . this never would have happened.
 
I don't think it's racist or sinful to base suspicion on statistics and similarity - I don't think that makes you a racist or a bigot - just a human.

Is that better.
 
subllibrm said:
Seems like a similar thought is claimed when a pretty lady wears a little too much make-up or her skirt is a little too short. If she hadn't done that he wouldn't have raped her.

Albert Mohler hit this one out of the park IMO. And the responses in this thread so far actually serve to prove his point. How many of you have been puller over for "driving white"?
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I have been pulled over many times in Gary, IN and Chicago for being other than black.  They always ask to search the vehicle, because I 'must be buying drugs'.  Then I try to hand em a track, or John n Romans, etc.  and they turn it down like I have the plague.  Then they lecture me on how stupid I am, for ministering in a "high narcotics area" or "I've seen the bodies" they say.  O Well, I've done as much to lower crime in those neighborhoods as they have.
The people I ministered to have gotten degrees, vocations, married, and are actually getting active politically.  Hopefully one day they will replace the corrupt racial profilers who harrassed me.

Anishinabe

 
pastorryanhayden said:
I don't think it's racist or sinful to base suspicion on statistics and similarity - I don't think that makes you a racist or a bigot - just a human.

Is that better.
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So for you, Martin Luther King's dream "that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." is an impossibility, because it is perfectly right and just to "base suspicion on statistics and similarity"?
 
What's all this crap Obama was saying about racial profiling today?

If I saw him crossing the street, I'd lock MY car door. 

And if I was in an elevator with him, I'd clutch my wallet and hold my breath until I had a chance to get off. 

And neither has anything to do with his race.  I'd do those things because he's an evil [censored]. 

 
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