When did you notice the "downfall" beginning?

[Binaca Chugger]

I grew up watching the ship wreck itself and not realizing that was what was happening. I had heard the Dave rumors for many years but just shook it off as "gossip to bring down the man of God." When his gallivanting at Miller Road was verified, my eyes started to open. It wasn't long after that I found the bug in my dad's office and that is when I decided I needed to question EVERYTHING.

Hold up there.  The bug in your dad's office?        WHAT!?!

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I grew up watching the ship wreck itself and not realizing that was what was happening. I had heard the Dave rumors for many years but just shook it off as "gossip to bring down the man of God." When his gallivanting at Miller Road was verified, my eyes started to open. It wasn't long after that I found the bug in my dad's office and that is when I decided I needed to question EVERYTHING.

Hold up there.  The bug in your dad's office?        WHAT!?!

Well, technically it was planted against the wall in the closet next door.

My parents had been suspicious that there was bugging going on in offices. It was assumed that someone was trying to discover who was being loyal or disloyal now that the rumors started. Anyway, my mom was counseling a young lady in her office and invented an analogy to make her point. The next Sunday night, Hyles used the exact same analogy. Another well-respected staff woman met with my mom and said she said some confidential things only in her office and got called in and questioned about it. It was all suspicion at that point with no proof.

Well my dad at the time was Groundskeeper at Baptist City. His office was in one of the old dorm rooms across the street from the grade school, same building as the Security office. Each of those buildings had a utility closet which had cages used for storage. My dad had some tools in there and sent me in to grab something. When I went in, I saw the cage beam that was closest to his office phone had something wedged between the beam and the wall. I took a good look at it and discovered it was a walkie talkie. There was a wire that went from the walkie talkie, down the beam, along the wall behind the cage, out the back brick wall, heading outside. I followed it outside and it was buried just below the surface along the wall all the way down to the Security office where a hole was drilled into the brick and the wire went back in. The walkie had a voice activation button which had been pushed in.

I showed my dad and he just laughed and decided to have fun with it. He told me to take the weedie trimmer and "trim the grass" against the building in the back and "accidentally" cut the wire. I did just that and cut the wire as it came out of the storage wall. By the next week, the wire had been replaced. He then nailed a shelf on his office side of the wall where the walkie was and turned it to the hard rock station and played it 24 hours a day. He would turn the volume up louder at night when he left the office. After a couple days went by, we went back into the closet and the walkie was gone along with the wire that went from the closet to the Security office.

I only wish I had taken a picture at the time.

Addendum: I'm getting senile. Both the wire cutting and the rock music radio playing were legitimate responses to the situation but I can't remember which one we did first! Anyway, the chronology might be wrong but the events happened.

 

[Vince Massi]

I think that it was 1973. We were still at the Baptist City campus, and Jack was preaching chapel. He announced that Dr. Billings, Dr. Evans, and Max Helton were equally in charge. Dr. Billings, who had been in charge since the beginning, looked shocked but quickly recovered. Hyles concluded "and it has always been that way."

I was shocked that Jack would get up and lie like that, but things continued to go well, and I worriedly ignored it.

 

[Tennessean]

I grew up watching the ship wreck itself and not realizing that was what was happening. I had heard the Dave rumors for many years but just shook it off as "gossip to bring down the man of God." When his gallivanting at Miller Road was verified, my eyes started to open. It wasn't long after that I found the bug in my dad's office and that is when I decided I needed to question EVERYTHING.

Hold up there.  The bug in your dad's office?        WHAT!?!

Well, technically it was planted against the wall in the closet next door.

My parents had been suspicious that there was bugging going on in offices. It was assumed that someone was trying to discover who was being loyal or disloyal now that the rumors started. Anyway, my mom was counseling a young lady in her office and invented an analogy to make her point. The next Sunday night, Hyles used the exact same analogy. Another well-respected staff woman met with my mom and said she said some confidential things only in her office and got called in and questioned about it. It was all suspicion at that point with no proof.

Well my dad at the time was Groundskeeper at Baptist City. His office was in one of the old dorm rooms across the street from the grade school, same building as the Security office. Each of those buildings had a utility closet which had cages used for storage. My dad had some tools in there and sent me in to grab something. When I went in, I saw the cage beam that was closest to his office phone had something wedged between the beam and the wall. I took a good look at it and discovered it was a walkie talkie. There was a wire that went from the walkie talkie, down the beam, along the wall behind the cage, out the back brick wall, heading outside. I followed it outside and it was buried just below the surface along the wall all the way down to the Security office where a hole was drilled into the brick and the wire went back in. The walkie had a voice activation button which had been pushed in.

I showed my dad and he just laughed and decided to have fun with it. He told me to take the weedie trimmer and "trim the grass" against the building in the back and "accidentally" cut the wire. I did just that and cut the wire as it came out of the storage wall. By the next week, the wire had been replaced. He then nailed a shelf on his office side of the wall where the walkie was and turned it to the hard rock station and played it 24 hours a day. He would turn the volume up louder at night when he left the office. After a couple days went by, we went back into the closet and the walkie was gone along with the wire that went from the closet to the Security office.

I only wish I had taken a picture at the time.

Addendum: I'm getting senile. Both the wire cutting and the rock music radio playing were legitimate responses to the situation but I can't remember which one we did first! Anyway, the chronology might be wrong but the events happened.

A followup question to your story.

Did you ever discover anything in your mother's office at the college campus?

 

[cast.sheep]

Be careful when you follow the masses.  Sometimes the "M" is silent.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I grew up watching the ship wreck itself and not realizing that was what was happening. I had heard the Dave rumors for many years but just shook it off as "gossip to bring down the man of God." When his gallivanting at Miller Road was verified, my eyes started to open. It wasn't long after that I found the bug in my dad's office and that is when I decided I needed to question EVERYTHING.

Hold up there.  The bug in your dad's office?        WHAT!?!

Well, technically it was planted against the wall in the closet next door.

My parents had been suspicious that there was bugging going on in offices. It was assumed that someone was trying to discover who was being loyal or disloyal now that the rumors started. Anyway, my mom was counseling a young lady in her office and invented an analogy to make her point. The next Sunday night, Hyles used the exact same analogy. Another well-respected staff woman met with my mom and said she said some confidential things only in her office and got called in and questioned about it. It was all suspicion at that point with no proof.

Well my dad at the time was Groundskeeper at Baptist City. His office was in one of the old dorm rooms across the street from the grade school, same building as the Security office. Each of those buildings had a utility closet which had cages used for storage. My dad had some tools in there and sent me in to grab something. When I went in, I saw the cage beam that was closest to his office phone had something wedged between the beam and the wall. I took a good look at it and discovered it was a walkie talkie. There was a wire that went from the walkie talkie, down the beam, along the wall behind the cage, out the back brick wall, heading outside. I followed it outside and it was buried just below the surface along the wall all the way down to the Security office where a hole was drilled into the brick and the wire went back in. The walkie had a voice activation button which had been pushed in.

I showed my dad and he just laughed and decided to have fun with it. He told me to take the weedie trimmer and "trim the grass" against the building in the back and "accidentally" cut the wire. I did just that and cut the wire as it came out of the storage wall. By the next week, the wire had been replaced. He then nailed a shelf on his office side of the wall where the walkie was and turned it to the hard rock station and played it 24 hours a day. He would turn the volume up louder at night when he left the office. After a couple days went by, we went back into the closet and the walkie was gone along with the wire that went from the closet to the Security office.

I only wish I had taken a picture at the time.

Addendum: I'm getting senile. Both the wire cutting and the rock music radio playing were legitimate responses to the situation but I can't remember which one we did first! Anyway, the chronology might be wrong but the events happened.

A followup question to your story.

Did you ever discover anything in your mother's office at the college campus?

Never did. I looked and looked but nothing but suspicion ever came of it.

 

[bgwilkinson]

I have been conducting some research into real HAC enrollment numbers, people who were actually paying the bills.

It has recently come to light that 1984 saw peak enrollment among the bill payers of 1800 persons.

This total does not include the others who were added to the totals just to make the numbers look better.

Two examples would be all the people that attended the Saturday Night class with Bro. Hyles and the Sunday evening classes such as tole painting.

Enrollments for every year after 1984 have been on a steady downward slope.

IMHO there are too many Bible colleges available to service too few bill paying students.

 

[Walt]

I think the answer depends on how old you are.  You and I are around the same age.  I first noticed it in 1989.  I was consumed with having children and rearing them at that time. I knew nothing about "The Battle" until a high-profile staff wife pulled me aside and told me the whole story.  They left later that year.  I was absolutely dumbfounded at what she told me.  And I simply could NOT believe it.  Like you, we were there in the heyday and it was all good until 1989.  At that point we were told not to read anything negative or believe any of the lies being told.  But, some high-profile people left...in groups.  I had a hard time reconciling that high-profile people were leaving over untruths.  Just didn't seem right to me. Nothing was the same after that.  A lot of the preaching was about loyalty to Bro. Hyles and FBCH.  Somewhere in there the whole A.V. Ballenger thing happened and it just seemed to go downhill from there.

Interesting.  Clearly, the rottenness was there before it was exposed in 1989, but the reaction to the exposure showed a lot.

 

[Walt]

It is possible, but how can he escape some blame in light of the fact that he helped create those monsters?

The blind loyalty preaching created many a moron in Hammond.

And, to make matters worse, in all of the churches run by pastors who followed this model.

 

[Walt]

Each one of us on the HAC FFF has our own feelings and stories from our time at FBCH and HAC.  I'm sure most of us can remember a time when we felt things were going great and we were behind the program.  I believe we can all agree that somewhere along the way things started to slip.  It may have been while we were at FBCH/HAC.  It may have been after we were gone.  Here is the question for the OP - At what time did you notice things starting to fall?  Is there an event to which you can point?  What year was it?

In 1981 as a young middle schooler, I went to Youth Conference and saw FBC for the first time. It was the last one conducted by Dave Hyles. That week the Lord planted the seed and that later led to me attending Hyles Anderson College.

I separate Jack Hyles from Jack Schaap. Though one followed the pastorate of the other the 2 were not the same. Brother Hyles was a Baptist and he held long practiced Baptist beliefs. Though these were not popular with other fundamentalists Bro. Hyles believed closed communion, the Doctrines of Grace, and that Jesus started the local church while He was here on earth, not on Pentecost. Bro. Hyles referred to "brethren of like faith and order." He rejected "alien baptism" and would not receive non-Baptist baptism onto the rolls of his church. Remember the Pastor's School when he preached about the church. He had just completed a long study about the church and preached it at Pastor's School. The folks there with BJU & TTU ties were fit to be tied. He also moved his belief regarding the King James Version of the Bible in the later years of his ministry. None of this I regard as a downfall.

I'm just astonished to read this statement. He was so much NOT orthodox in many areas.  His demand of utter loyalty has no support in Scripture.  His teaching that there are three wills of God has no Scriptural support.  His teaching that everlasting life and eternal life are different things is heretical.  His teaching that if you win enough souls, God will overlook sin is not Baptist, but Catholic in nature (they have indulgences; JH had soul-winning).  His teaching that Jesus was always human is not a Baptist doctrine, nor is his blasphemous teaching that God the Father doesn't understand humans and would wipe us out but for God the Son.

There is no question that he taught these strange doctrines and passed them on to others as well.

 

[BALAAM]

I have been conducting some research into real HAC enrollment numbers, people who were actually paying the bills.

It has recently come to light that 1984 saw peak enrollment among the bill payers of 1800 persons.

This total does not include the others who were added to the totals just to make the numbers look better.

Two examples would be all the people that attended the Saturday Night class with Bro. Hyles and the Sunday evening classes such as tole painting.

Enrollments for every year after 1984 have been on a steady downward slope.

IMHO there are too many Bible colleges available to service too few bill paying students.

Well, Robby, Bobby, Gray along with Russell Anderson are starting another on-line college. I am sure that he thinks he will fill in the gaps left by all the deficiencies of all the other ifb colleges.

They are actually offering a free course. Not Hebrew, Romans, John or anything like that but a course called "The Pastor and his Family".  I am not minimizing the importance of these but it just seems odd to me that these Bible colleges have so little Bible. And, knowing BG, any Bible classes would be "Jack Hyles on Romans, Jack Hyles on Hebrews, Jack Hyles on OT, and probably what Jack Hyles taught about the pastor and his family".

Bob Gray wrote an article that was featured on Independent Baptist a while back called 'How I study the Scriptures'. In this article he made a statement that says actually not to spend too much time studying but just reading. He said, "It is far more important what the Bible says than what it actually means." Eye-Opening to be sure.

I questioned him on this but got no response. This, in my opinion, is EXACTLY how you can have groups that handle poisonous snakes and all the other nonsense.

I also personally think that a lot of these ifb type colleges are having a harder and harder time drawing students. BG started this Independent Baptist website with the expressed intent of bringing back the principles that lifted their movement to prominence in the 70's. They started a couple of "Independent Baptist Conferences" around the country. They had 2 I believe and to read the reports the atmosphere was absolutely "electrifying". (his description) But they stopped after two. Probably for the same reason the college attendances are down.

 

[prophet]

Each one of us on the HAC FFF has our own feelings and stories from our time at FBCH and HAC.  I'm sure most of us can remember a time when we felt things were going great and we were behind the program.  I believe we can all agree that somewhere along the way things started to slip.  It may have been while we were at FBCH/HAC.  It may have been after we were gone.  Here is the question for the OP - At what time did you notice things starting to fall?  Is there an event to which you can point?  What year was it?

In 1981 as a young middle schooler, I went to Youth Conference and saw FBC for the first time. It was the last one conducted by Dave Hyles. That week the Lord planted the seed and that later led to me attending Hyles Anderson College.

I separate Jack Hyles from Jack Schaap. Though one followed the pastorate of the other the 2 were not the same. Brother Hyles was a Baptist and he held long practiced Baptist beliefs. Though these were not popular with other fundamentalists Bro. Hyles believed closed communion, the Doctrines of Grace, and that Jesus started the local church while He was here on earth, not on Pentecost. Bro. Hyles referred to "brethren of like faith and order." He rejected "alien baptism" and would not receive non-Baptist baptism onto the rolls of his church. Remember the Pastor's School when he preached about the church. He had just completed a long study about the church and preached it at Pastor's School. The folks there with BJU & TTU ties were fit to be tied. He also moved his belief regarding the King James Version of the Bible in the later years of his ministry. None of this I regard as a downfall.

I'm just astonished to read this statement. He was so much NOT orthodox in many areas.  His demand of utter loyalty has no support in Scripture.  His teaching that there are three wills of God has no Scriptural support.  His teaching that everlasting life and eternal life are different things is heretical.  His teaching that if you win enough souls, God will overlook sin is not Baptist, but Catholic in nature (they have indulgences; JH had soul-winning).  His teaching that Jesus was always human is not a Baptist doctrine, nor is his blasphemous teaching that God the Father doesn't understand humans and would wipe us out but for God the Son.

There is no question that he taught these strange doctrines and passed them on to others as well.

Hold everything.

Eternal and everlasting are the same, now?

I realize if one possesses one, then he also possesses the other.

Are you implying that Hyles taught that you could possess one w/o the other?

Or is this another Trinity debacle?
Where I say I believe the Comma, and you say you believe in the Trinity, but we both believe the same thing, when we boil it down?

Haklo

 

[prophet]

Each one of us on the HAC FFF has our own feelings and stories from our time at FBCH and HAC.  I'm sure most of us can remember a time when we felt things were going great and we were behind the program.  I believe we can all agree that somewhere along the way things started to slip.  It may have been while we were at FBCH/HAC.  It may have been after we were gone.  Here is the question for the OP - At what time did you notice things starting to fall?  Is there an event to which you can point?  What year was it?

In 1981 as a young middle schooler, I went to Youth Conference and saw FBC for the first time. It was the last one conducted by Dave Hyles. That week the Lord planted the seed and that later led to me attending Hyles Anderson College.

I separate Jack Hyles from Jack Schaap. Though one followed the pastorate of the other the 2 were not the same. Brother Hyles was a Baptist and he held long practiced Baptist beliefs. Though these were not popular with other fundamentalists Bro. Hyles believed closed communion, the Doctrines of Grace, and that Jesus started the local church while He was here on earth, not on Pentecost. Bro. Hyles referred to "brethren of like faith and order." He rejected "alien baptism" and would not receive non-Baptist baptism onto the rolls of his church. Remember the Pastor's School when he preached about the church. He had just completed a long study about the church and preached it at Pastor's School. The folks there with BJU & TTU ties were fit to be tied. He also moved his belief regarding the King James Version of the Bible in the later years of his ministry. None of this I regard as a downfall.

I'm just astonished to read this statement. He was so much NOT orthodox in many areas.  His demand of utter loyalty has no support in Scripture.  His teaching that there are three wills of God has no Scriptural support.  His teaching that everlasting life and eternal life are different things is heretical.  His teaching that if you win enough souls, God will overlook sin is not Baptist, but Catholic in nature (they have indulgences; JH had soul-winning).  His teaching that Jesus was always human is not a Baptist doctrine, nor is his blasphemous teaching that God the Father doesn't understand humans and would wipe us out but for God the Son.

There is no question that he taught these strange doctrines and passed them on to others as well.

Hyles never taught that God would overlook sin.

He believed that works brought you along the sanctification process.



Haklo

 

[Least of These]

The founding of Hyles-Anderson College became an institution dedicated to preparing the hearts and minds of young people to worship The Lord Jack Hyles. Naming the college after himself and his monetary benefactor should have been a clue that the intentions may not have been entirely altruistic.

I realize that the ministry of FBC/HAC grew somewhat exponentially after both of those events I cataloged so I can understand if no one really agrees that those events began the downfall.

I believe this was the time frame when the changes began, as well.  It was more of a slow fade, IMO, than a downfall - it was years / decades in the making. 

 

[Walt]

Each one of us on the HAC FFF has our own feelings and stories from our time at FBCH and HAC.  I'm sure most of us can remember a time when we felt things were going great and we were behind the program.  I believe we can all agree that somewhere along the way things started to slip.  It may have been while we were at FBCH/HAC.  It may have been after we were gone.  Here is the question for the OP - At what time did you notice things starting to fall?  Is there an event to which you can point?  What year was it?

In 1981 as a young middle schooler, I went to Youth Conference and saw FBC for the first time. It was the last one conducted by Dave Hyles. That week the Lord planted the seed and that later led to me attending Hyles Anderson College.

I separate Jack Hyles from Jack Schaap. Though one followed the pastorate of the other the 2 were not the same. Brother Hyles was a Baptist and he held long practiced Baptist beliefs. Though these were not popular with other fundamentalists Bro. Hyles believed closed communion, the Doctrines of Grace, and that Jesus started the local church while He was here on earth, not on Pentecost. Bro. Hyles referred to "brethren of like faith and order." He rejected "alien baptism" and would not receive non-Baptist baptism onto the rolls of his church. Remember the Pastor's School when he preached about the church. He had just completed a long study about the church and preached it at Pastor's School. The folks there with BJU & TTU ties were fit to be tied. He also moved his belief regarding the King James Version of the Bible in the later years of his ministry. None of this I regard as a downfall.

I'm just astonished to read this statement. He was so much NOT orthodox in many areas.  His demand of utter loyalty has no support in Scripture.  His teaching that there are three wills of God has no Scriptural support.  His teaching that everlasting life and eternal life are different things is heretical.  His teaching that if you win enough souls, God will overlook sin is not Baptist, but Catholic in nature (they have indulgences; JH had soul-winning).  His teaching that Jesus was always human is not a Baptist doctrine, nor is his blasphemous teaching that God the Father doesn't understand humans and would wipe us out but for God the Son.

There is no question that he taught these strange doctrines and passed them on to others as well.

Hold everything.

Eternal and everlasting are the same, now?

I realize if one possesses one, then he also possesses the other.

Are you implying that Hyles taught that you could possess one w/o the other?

Or is this another Trinity debacle?
Where I say I believe the Comma, and you say you believe in the Trinity, but we both believe the same thing, when we boil it down?

Haklo

Hyles taught that eternal life was different than everlasting life; one was "qualitative", he said, and the other was "quantitative".  The problem is that the God used the SAME word translated both "eternal" and "everlasting".  The distinction is false. And yes, he taught that people could have one, but not the other.

Hyles taught that Jesus was always human and that he didn't merely become human at the incarnation. Again, this isn't what the Bible says: it says that the "Word BECAME flesh". Jack Hyles said "Jesus did NOT become human when He came to Bethlehem".

 

[Route_70]

I noticed a problem within the first couple of weeks after I enrolled in January of 1974.  The full, two-page insert in the Sword of the Lord announcing the opening of Hyles-Anderson College had said: "Jack Hyles to Teach Daily."  When it became apparent that Jack Hyles not only did not only teach daily, but only showed up on Wednesdays, I knew that I had been had.

So why did I stay?  I dunno.

 

[prophet]

Each one of us on the HAC FFF has our own feelings and stories from our time at FBCH and HAC.  I'm sure most of us can remember a time when we felt things were going great and we were behind the program.  I believe we can all agree that somewhere along the way things started to slip.  It may have been while we were at FBCH/HAC.  It may have been after we were gone.  Here is the question for the OP - At what time did you notice things starting to fall?  Is there an event to which you can point?  What year was it?

In 1981 as a young middle schooler, I went to Youth Conference and saw FBC for the first time. It was the last one conducted by Dave Hyles. That week the Lord planted the seed and that later led to me attending Hyles Anderson College.

I separate Jack Hyles from Jack Schaap. Though one followed the pastorate of the other the 2 were not the same. Brother Hyles was a Baptist and he held long practiced Baptist beliefs. Though these were not popular with other fundamentalists Bro. Hyles believed closed communion, the Doctrines of Grace, and that Jesus started the local church while He was here on earth, not on Pentecost. Bro. Hyles referred to "brethren of like faith and order." He rejected "alien baptism" and would not receive non-Baptist baptism onto the rolls of his church. Remember the Pastor's School when he preached about the church. He had just completed a long study about the church and preached it at Pastor's School. The folks there with BJU & TTU ties were fit to be tied. He also moved his belief regarding the King James Version of the Bible in the later years of his ministry. None of this I regard as a downfall.

I'm just astonished to read this statement. He was so much NOT orthodox in many areas.  His demand of utter loyalty has no support in Scripture.  His teaching that there are three wills of God has no Scriptural support.  His teaching that everlasting life and eternal life are different things is heretical.  His teaching that if you win enough souls, God will overlook sin is not Baptist, but Catholic in nature (they have indulgences; JH had soul-winning).  His teaching that Jesus was always human is not a Baptist doctrine, nor is his blasphemous teaching that God the Father doesn't understand humans and would wipe us out but for God the Son.

There is no question that he taught these strange doctrines and passed them on to others as well.

Hold everything.

Eternal and everlasting are the same, now?

I realize if one possesses one, then he also possesses the other.

Are you implying that Hyles taught that you could possess one w/o the other?

Or is this another Trinity debacle?
Where I say I believe the Comma, and you say you believe in the Trinity, but we both believe the same thing, when we boil it down?

Haklo

Hyles taught that eternal life was different than everlasting life; one was "qualitative", he said, and the other was "quantitative".  The problem is that the God used the SAME word translated both "eternal" and "everlasting".  The distinction is false. And yes, he taught that people could have one, but not the other.

Hyles taught that Jesus was always human and that he didn't merely become human at the incarnation. Again, this isn't what the Bible says: it says that the "Word BECAME flesh". Jack Hyles said "Jesus did NOT become human when He came to Bethlehem".

I heard him teach that quantitive, and qualitative were two different aspects of the same gift of God, and I spent 20 years hearing him speak 3 + times a week.
I dare say that you misheard him.

Lol@ "translated" by the way, as if you speak Koine.
Eternal doesn't mean the same thing as Everlasting, and God put both of them in our English Bible (the language that you were born into speaking), so He had a reason to show the distinction.
In fact, some whole systems of false doctrine can be turned on the ear, by simply having the correct definition of these two words in their context.

As for the other point, it sounds familiar, and is par for the course with Hyles.

He, an insecure fatherless son, effeminate in his thought patterns even, was always trying to make Jesus in his image.
I've heard him say several whacky things, like "my Saviour never had a beard, he wasn't some hippy".  It was as if Jesus was a WWII Vet, with a Hart Schafner and Marx tailored 3-piece suit, Stacey Adams shoes, Stafford white shirt, and Ralph Lauren tie, a tapered haircut,vand a brick house in the burbs.

Haklo

 

[bgwilkinson]

Each one of us on the HAC FFF has our own feelings and stories from our time at FBCH and HAC.  I'm sure most of us can remember a time when we felt things were going great and we were behind the program.  I believe we can all agree that somewhere along the way things started to slip.  It may have been while we were at FBCH/HAC.  It may have been after we were gone.  Here is the question for the OP - At what time did you notice things starting to fall?  Is there an event to which you can point?  What year was it?

In 1981 as a young middle schooler, I went to Youth Conference and saw FBC for the first time. It was the last one conducted by Dave Hyles. That week the Lord planted the seed and that later led to me attending Hyles Anderson College.

I separate Jack Hyles from Jack Schaap. Though one followed the pastorate of the other the 2 were not the same. Brother Hyles was a Baptist and he held long practiced Baptist beliefs. Though these were not popular with other fundamentalists Bro. Hyles believed closed communion, the Doctrines of Grace, and that Jesus started the local church while He was here on earth, not on Pentecost. Bro. Hyles referred to "brethren of like faith and order." He rejected "alien baptism" and would not receive non-Baptist baptism onto the rolls of his church. Remember the Pastor's School when he preached about the church. He had just completed a long study about the church and preached it at Pastor's School. The folks there with BJU & TTU ties were fit to be tied. He also moved his belief regarding the King James Version of the Bible in the later years of his ministry. None of this I regard as a downfall.

I'm just astonished to read this statement. He was so much NOT orthodox in many areas.  His demand of utter loyalty has no support in Scripture.  His teaching that there are three wills of God has no Scriptural support.  His teaching that everlasting life and eternal life are different things is heretical.  His teaching that if you win enough souls, God will overlook sin is not Baptist, but Catholic in nature (they have indulgences; JH had soul-winning).  His teaching that Jesus was always human is not a Baptist doctrine, nor is his blasphemous teaching that God the Father doesn't understand humans and would wipe us out but for God the Son.

There is no question that he taught these strange doctrines and passed them on to others as well.

Hold everything.

Eternal and everlasting are the same, now?

I realize if one possesses one, then he also possesses the other.

Are you implying that Hyles taught that you could possess one w/o the other?

Or is this another Trinity debacle?
Where I say I believe the Comma, and you say you believe in the Trinity, but we both believe the same thing, when we boil it down?

Haklo

Hyles taught that eternal life was different than everlasting life; one was "qualitative", he said, and the other was "quantitative".  The problem is that the God used the SAME word translated both "eternal" and "everlasting".  The distinction is false. And yes, he taught that people could have one, but not the other.

Hyles taught that Jesus was always human and that he didn't merely become human at the incarnation. Again, this isn't what the Bible says: it says that the "Word BECAME flesh". Jack Hyles said "Jesus did NOT become human when He came to Bethlehem".

I heard him teach that quantitive, and qualitative were two different aspects of the same gift of God, and I spent 20 years hearing him speak 3 + times a week.
I dare say that you misheard him.

Lol@ "translated" by the way, as if you speak Koine.
Eternal doesn't mean the same thing as Everlasting, and God put both of them in our English Bible (the language that you were born into speaking), so He had a reason to show the distinction.
In fact, some whole systems of false doctrine can be turned on the ear, by simply having the correct definition of these two words in their context.

As for the other point, it sounds familiar, and is par for the course with Hyles.

He, an insecure fatherless son, effeminate in his thought patterns even, was always trying to make Jesus in his image.
I've heard him say several whacky things, like "my Saviour never had a beard, he wasn't some hippy".  It was as if Jesus was a WWII Vet, with a Hart Schafner and Marx tailored 3-piece suit, Stacey Adams shoes, Stafford white shirt, and Ralph Lauren tie, a tapered haircut,vand a brick house in the burbs.

Haklo

Yup, and when IFBx talks of Old Fashioned they mean that same WWII vet and not Jesus.

 

[Bruh]

Each one of us on the HAC FFF has our own feelings and stories from our time at FBCH and HAC.  I'm sure most of us can remember a time when we felt things were going great and we were behind the program.  I believe we can all agree that somewhere along the way things started to slip.  It may have been while we were at FBCH/HAC.  It may have been after we were gone.  Here is the question for the OP - At what time did you notice things starting to fall?  Is there an event to which you can point?  What year was it?

In 1981 as a young middle schooler, I went to Youth Conference and saw FBC for the first time. It was the last one conducted by Dave Hyles. That week the Lord planted the seed and that later led to me attending Hyles Anderson College.

I separate Jack Hyles from Jack Schaap. Though one followed the pastorate of the other the 2 were not the same. Brother Hyles was a Baptist and he held long practiced Baptist beliefs. Though these were not popular with other fundamentalists Bro. Hyles believed closed communion, the Doctrines of Grace, and that Jesus started the local church while He was here on earth, not on Pentecost. Bro. Hyles referred to "brethren of like faith and order." He rejected "alien baptism" and would not receive non-Baptist baptism onto the rolls of his church. Remember the Pastor's School when he preached about the church. He had just completed a long study about the church and preached it at Pastor's School. The folks there with BJU & TTU ties were fit to be tied. He also moved his belief regarding the King James Version of the Bible in the later years of his ministry. None of this I regard as a downfall.

I'm just astonished to read this statement. He was so much NOT orthodox in many areas.  His demand of utter loyalty has no support in Scripture.  His teaching that there are three wills of God has no Scriptural support.  His teaching that everlasting life and eternal life are different things is heretical.  His teaching that if you win enough souls, God will overlook sin is not Baptist, but Catholic in nature (they have indulgences; JH had soul-winning).  His teaching that Jesus was always human is not a Baptist doctrine, nor is his blasphemous teaching that God the Father doesn't understand humans and would wipe us out but for God the Son.

There is no question that he taught these strange doctrines and passed them on to others as well.

Hold everything.

Eternal and everlasting are the same, now?

I realize if one possesses one, then he also possesses the other.

Are you implying that Hyles taught that you could possess one w/o the other?

Or is this another Trinity debacle?
Where I say I believe the Comma, and you say you believe in the Trinity, but we both believe the same thing, when we boil it down?

Haklo

Hyles taught that eternal life was different than everlasting life; one was "qualitative", he said, and the other was "quantitative".  The problem is that the God used the SAME word translated both "eternal" and "everlasting".  The distinction is false. And yes, he taught that people could have one, but not the other.

Hyles taught that Jesus was always human and that he didn't merely become human at the incarnation. Again, this isn't what the Bible says: it says that the "Word BECAME flesh". Jack Hyles said "Jesus did NOT become human when He came to Bethlehem".

I heard him teach that quantitive, and qualitative were two different aspects of the same gift of God, and I spent 20 years hearing him speak 3 + times a week.
I dare say that you misheard him.

Lol@ "translated" by the way, as if you speak Koine.
Eternal doesn't mean the same thing as Everlasting, and God put both of them in our English Bible (the language that you were born into speaking), so He had a reason to show the distinction.
In fact, some whole systems of false doctrine can be turned on the ear, by simply having the correct definition of these two words in their context.

As for the other point, it sounds familiar, and is par for the course with Hyles.

He, an insecure fatherless son, effeminate in his thought patterns even, was always trying to make Jesus in his image.
I've heard him say several whacky things, like "my Saviour never had a beard, he wasn't some hippy".  It was as if Jesus was a WWII Vet, with a Hart Schafner and Marx tailored 3-piece suit, Stacey Adams shoes, Stafford white shirt, and Ralph Lauren tie, a tapered haircut,vand a brick house in the burbs.

Haklo

Yup, and when IFBx talks of Old Fashioned they mean that same WWII vet and not Jesus.

Which includes the current church you attend presently.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Each one of us on the HAC FFF has our own feelings and stories from our time at FBCH and HAC.  I'm sure most of us can remember a time when we felt things were going great and we were behind the program.  I believe we can all agree that somewhere along the way things started to slip.  It may have been while we were at FBCH/HAC.  It may have been after we were gone.  Here is the question for the OP - At what time did you notice things starting to fall?  Is there an event to which you can point?  What year was it?

In 1981 as a young middle schooler, I went to Youth Conference and saw FBC for the first time. It was the last one conducted by Dave Hyles. That week the Lord planted the seed and that later led to me attending Hyles Anderson College.

I separate Jack Hyles from Jack Schaap. Though one followed the pastorate of the other the 2 were not the same. Brother Hyles was a Baptist and he held long practiced Baptist beliefs. Though these were not popular with other fundamentalists Bro. Hyles believed closed communion, the Doctrines of Grace, and that Jesus started the local church while He was here on earth, not on Pentecost. Bro. Hyles referred to "brethren of like faith and order." He rejected "alien baptism" and would not receive non-Baptist baptism onto the rolls of his church. Remember the Pastor's School when he preached about the church. He had just completed a long study about the church and preached it at Pastor's School. The folks there with BJU & TTU ties were fit to be tied. He also moved his belief regarding the King James Version of the Bible in the later years of his ministry. None of this I regard as a downfall.

I'm just astonished to read this statement. He was so much NOT orthodox in many areas.  His demand of utter loyalty has no support in Scripture.  His teaching that there are three wills of God has no Scriptural support.  His teaching that everlasting life and eternal life are different things is heretical.  His teaching that if you win enough souls, God will overlook sin is not Baptist, but Catholic in nature (they have indulgences; JH had soul-winning).  His teaching that Jesus was always human is not a Baptist doctrine, nor is his blasphemous teaching that God the Father doesn't understand humans and would wipe us out but for God the Son.

There is no question that he taught these strange doctrines and passed them on to others as well.

Hold everything.

Eternal and everlasting are the same, now?

I realize if one possesses one, then he also possesses the other.

Are you implying that Hyles taught that you could possess one w/o the other?

Or is this another Trinity debacle?
Where I say I believe the Comma, and you say you believe in the Trinity, but we both believe the same thing, when we boil it down?

Haklo

Hyles taught that eternal life was different than everlasting life; one was "qualitative", he said, and the other was "quantitative".  The problem is that the God used the SAME word translated both "eternal" and "everlasting".  The distinction is false. And yes, he taught that people could have one, but not the other.

Hyles taught that Jesus was always human and that he didn't merely become human at the incarnation. Again, this isn't what the Bible says: it says that the "Word BECAME flesh". Jack Hyles said "Jesus did NOT become human when He came to Bethlehem".

I heard him teach that quantitive, and qualitative were two different aspects of the same gift of God, and I spent 20 years hearing him speak 3 + times a week.
I dare say that you misheard him.

Lol@ "translated" by the way, as if you speak Koine.
Eternal doesn't mean the same thing as Everlasting, and God put both of them in our English Bible (the language that you were born into speaking), so He had a reason to show the distinction.
In fact, some whole systems of false doctrine can be turned on the ear, by simply having the correct definition of these two words in their context.

As for the other point, it sounds familiar, and is par for the course with Hyles.

He, an insecure fatherless son, effeminate in his thought patterns even, was always trying to make Jesus in his image.
I've heard him say several whacky things, like "my Saviour never had a beard, he wasn't some hippy".  It was as if Jesus was a WWII Vet, with a Hart Schafner and Marx tailored 3-piece suit, Stacey Adams shoes, Stafford white shirt, and Ralph Lauren tie, a tapered haircut,vand a brick house in the burbs.

Haklo

Yup, and when IFBx talks of Old Fashioned they mean that same WWII vet and not Jesus.

Which includes the current church you attend presently.

Perhaps, however many of the families that have been there since Bro. Hyles came no longer view him as the great hero of the faith as we once did.

We still love him but have learned from his grievous errors and false doctrines.

It is this that I fear IFBxs view as attractive.