When did you notice the "downfall" beginning?

Tom Brennan said:
The last good Pastor's School under Schaap was the one on prayer, 2008 maybe? I went to one after that and I heard so much philosophy, pragmatism, and man worship that I couldn't stomach it anymore. I was also very grieved by the increasing embrace of contemporary Christianity. Not long after I had it privately confirmed to me by someone I trusted that JS was using foul language. I stopped taking my church, having tour groups, etc. I was done.

...that's the short answer.  :D The long answer is probably more along the lines of a gradual awakening to the importance of hermeneutics, and the dangers of pride combined with an ever-increasing concern for Schaap's contemporary direction. The last book of his I bought/read was the one about which direction we are going. I read it, said to myself, 'I ain't goin' in your direction, buddy' and threw it in the trash.

Honest question Tom, why didn't you begin to brake away or say I am done with this guy when, he said, the Lords table was like having spiritual intercourse.

IMO, this is more serious than the contemporary issue.
 
Tom Brennan said:
The last good Pastor's School under Schaap was the one on prayer, 2008 maybe? I went to one after that and I heard so much philosophy, pragmatism, and man worship that I couldn't stomach it anymore. I was also very grieved by the increasing embrace of contemporary Christianity. Not long after I had it privately confirmed to me by someone I trusted that JS was using foul language. I stopped taking my church, having tour groups, etc. I was done.

...that's the short answer.  :D The long answer is probably more along the lines of a gradual awakening to the importance of hermeneutics, and the dangers of pride combined with an ever-increasing concern for Schaap's contemporary direction. The last book of his I bought/read was the one about which direction we are going. I read it, said to myself, 'I ain't goin' in your direction, buddy' and threw it in the trash.

Are you saying that you didn't notice the "beginning of the downfall" until 2008?
 
1984 I questioned dh downfall and I was told he was doing well. We knew better.....I question everything they do and when they let 40 people go without notice....the end!!

 
In the early 90's I ran into another HAC grad who had grown up at & later went on staff at Miller Road before Davey-boy arrived there. His was a tragic story of how affected his family was by Dave's immorality. Before that I wouldn't listen to the stuff being said.

This same guy asked me about someone in a church I had worked out of who had taken a trip overseas on a missions trip with someone in the JH clan. I had been friends with the person he mentioned & that too turned out to be a tragic story, which lead back to JH.

I knew of too many dots that began to quickly connect. All the dots lead back to JH & the picture wasn't worth making into a statue.
 
Tom Brennan said:
The last good Pastor's School under Schaap was the one on prayer, 2008 maybe? I went to one after that and I heard so much philosophy, pragmatism, and man worship that I couldn't stomach it anymore. I was also very grieved by the increasing embrace of contemporary Christianity. Not long after I had it privately confirmed to me by someone I trusted that JS was using foul language. I stopped taking my church, having tour groups, etc. I was done.

...that's the short answer.  :D The long answer is probably more along the lines of a gradual awakening to the importance of hermeneutics, and the dangers of pride combined with an ever-increasing concern for Schaap's contemporary direction. The last book of his I bought/read was the one about which direction we are going. I read it, said to myself, 'I ain't goin' in your direction, buddy' and threw it in the trash.

Tom

Can you expand on what you mean by "contemporary Christianity"? Just curious, seems odd. Schaap certainly was heretical and a charismaniac, but I don't know if that's what you mean or not?

Also, long before '08 Schaap was knee deep in heresy. Example: his book on the Holy Spirit where he describes how to "make God sweat". Insane!
 
Thomas Cassidy said:
1959. The calling of Jack Frasure Hyles. :(

You knew of Hyles before he came to Hammond? Just curious...
 
RAIDER said:
Each one of us on the HAC FFF has our own feelings and stories from our time at FBCH and HAC.  I'm sure most of us can remember a time when we felt things were going great and we were behind the program.  I believe we can all agree that somewhere along the way things started to slip.  It may have been while we were at FBCH/HAC.  It may have been after we were gone.  Here is the question for the OP - At what time did you notice things starting to fall?  Is there an event to which you can point?  What year was it?

When I realized my youth pastor lied to us often. When I noticed Sunday School teachers related to the youth pastor posting things on this forum that only the yp would know.  When staff were relocated weekly because we give our best to the mission field. When all of the church assistant pastors and pastor went to Montana for a week with all expenses paid to go snowmobiling. Etc......
 
Bruh said:
Honest question Tom, why didn't you begin to brake away or say I am done with this guy when, he said, the Lords table was like having spiritual intercourse.

IMO, this is more serious than the contemporary issue.

I am sitting here trying to think of a way to craft an answer defending myself. I just can't. No excuses.
 
cast.sheep said:
Are you saying that you didn't notice the "beginning of the downfall" until 2008?

No. I read/listened/studied all the dirt (true/false) thrown at the place even back during my college days. But by 2008 I was done with Schaap. Which by definition made me done with FBCH/HAC. If you want a detailed answer send me a pm with your email. I have a standard long explanation of what I think of JH and why.
 
Ex-Fundy said:
Tom

Can you expand on what you mean by "contemporary Christianity"? Just curious, seems odd. Schaap certainly was heretical and a charismaniac, but I don't know if that's what you mean or not?

No. I think he was increasingly moving from a committed IFB approach (which I know you don't subscribe to anymore but I still do) to one more based on the American contemporary Christian approach. He allowed men to come to the pulpit and use versions different than the KJV. He sent staff members to Willow Creek to learn how to study. He embraced contemporary pastors such as the guy from the Richmond Outreach Center. He mentioned positively Rick Warren and Billy Graham.

I lay all that at the feet of pragmatism. In the 70's the IFB world was it. By the 00's the wind had shifted to the contemporaries. Schaap was tacking his sail in the direction of the wind.
 
Tom Brennan said:
Bruh said:
Honest question Tom, why didn't you begin to brake away or say I am done with this guy when, he said, the Lords table was like having spiritual intercourse.

IMO, this is more serious than the contemporary issue.

I am sitting here trying to think of a way to craft an answer defending myself. I just can't. No excuses.

Thanks for your honesty.
 
Tom Brennan said:
Ex-Fundy said:
Tom

Can you expand on what you mean by "contemporary Christianity"? Just curious, seems odd. Schaap certainly was heretical and a charismaniac, but I don't know if that's what you mean or not?

No. I think he was increasingly moving from a committed IFB approach (which I know you don't subscribe to anymore but I still do) to one more based on the American contemporary Christian approach. He allowed men to come to the pulpit and use versions different than the KJV. He sent staff members to Willow Creek to learn how to study. He embraced contemporary pastors such as the guy from the Richmond Outreach Center. He mentioned positively Rick Warren and Billy Graham.

I lay all that at the feet of pragmatism. In the 70's the IFB world was it. By the 00's the wind had shifted to the contemporaries. Schaap was tacking his sail in the direction of the wind.

Thanks for the reply. While I certainly can agree that Schaap was a windsock and that his wishy washy ways were very odd (including all the Warren and Willow Creek love), I don't follow you re: the KJV. While Schaap was wavering on that probably due to pragmatic reasons as you suggest, I know that MANY ministers and churches have switched to modern versions for reasons of textual reliability and the simple fact that they read in a more similar way to how we speak today.

 
RAIDER said:
Each one of us on the HAC FFF has our own feelings and stories from our time at FBCH and HAC.  I'm sure most of us can remember a time when we felt things were going great and we were behind the program.  I believe we can all agree that somewhere along the way things started to slip.  It may have been while we were at FBCH/HAC.  It may have been after we were gone.  Here is the question for the OP - At what time did you notice things starting to fall?  Is there an event to which you can point?  What year was it?

In 1981 as a young middle schooler, I went to Youth Conference and saw FBC for the first time. It was the last one conducted by Dave Hyles. That week the Lord planted the seed and that later led to me attending Hyles Anderson College.

I separate Jack Hyles from Jack Schaap. Though one followed the pastorate of the other the 2 were not the same. Brother Hyles was a Baptist and he held long practiced Baptist beliefs. Though these were not popular with other fundamentalists Bro. Hyles believed closed communion, the Doctrines of Grace, and that Jesus started the local church while He was here on earth, not on Pentecost. Bro. Hyles referred to "brethren of like faith and order." He rejected "alien baptism" and would not receive non-Baptist baptism onto the rolls of his church. Remember the Pastor's School when he preached about the church. He had just completed a long study about the church and preached it at Pastor's School. The folks there with BJU & TTU ties were fit to be tied. He also moved his belief regarding the King James Version of the Bible in the later years of his ministry. None of this I regard as a downfall.

If there was a decline in his ministry it happened because of 2 reasons.
1) Dave Hyles. When Bro. Dave sinned it brought shame and reproach upon both the Miller Road Baptist Church & the First Baptist Church. Bro. Hyles took the unpopular stance of reaching out to his fallen son and he attempted to restore him, and help him get right with God. For the way he did that he took much criticism and people used that to criticize. Many who had been wronged wanted to see Dave suffer, they still do. Whereas they wanted revenge, Bro. Hyles wanted to see restoration. I wonder who's right according to the scripture?

2) Robert L. Summer/Vic Nischick
When Sumner's article went national it was only to be expected that the reputation of Jack Hyles/Hyles Anderson College/Pastor's School would be damaged. The attendance of Pastor's School of 1990 was down. The auditorium looked full because HAC students were, for the first time, allowed to sit in the auditorium during morning sessions.

The amazing thing about that time was that, Jack Hyles did not resign, the church membership by and large supported their pastor both by attendance and tithes, and in the next several years, many more people were saved. Some say Bro. Hyles grew more prideful as he got older. I don't see that. btw, good men can disagree. Bro. Hyles preaching became more loving and pastoral in his later years, I think because of the Sumner article.

Jack Schaap was a totally different story. JS preached at that first youth conference I attended. I remember it because he made some statements that were just wrong and he made sexual references. I didn't think much about it then because he was such a small part of a long week.

As a student of HAC in the mid 80's I realized that the college was taking a strong stand for the KJV. In the spring of 1988 Bro. Hyles preached about the KJV both in church and in chapel. He used those messages as ways to set the tone for the direction regarding the KJV issue. Not long after that Jack Schaap was teaching Church Education class. He told the class of several hundred not to go to far off the deep end on this King James issue because there wasn't really that much difference between the versions and it really wasn't that big a deal. At the time I thought, "Hmm, he didn't get the memo." A few months later after summer break, Jack Schaap preached a stirring sermon about the KJV and it was obvious that he had gotten the memo. That right there should have been a tip off.

In the spring of 1989 HAC announced that they would be building a new dormitory. Mark Rasmussen and Jack Schaap announced that they would be taking an active role in raising money to build the building. In Church Education class Jack Schaap was talking about the matter and he made the joke that he could raise all the money needed by taking a group of college girls to the South Side and "being their pimp."

All these should have raised red flags.
 
Ex-Fundy said:
You lost me at "Hyles believed...the Doctrines of Grace..."

And everything he said about JH.
 
Tennessean said:
RAIDER said:
Each one of us on the HAC FFF has our own feelings and stories from our time at FBCH and HAC.  I'm sure most of us can remember a time when we felt things were going great and we were behind the program.  I believe we can all agree that somewhere along the way things started to slip.  It may have been while we were at FBCH/HAC.  It may have been after we were gone.  Here is the question for the OP - At what time did you notice things starting to fall?  Is there an event to which you can point?  What year was it?

I
If there was a decline in his ministry it happened because of 2 reasons.
1) Dave Hyles. When Bro. Dave sinned it brought shame and reproach upon both the Miller Road Baptist Church & the First Baptist Church. Bro. Hyles took the unpopular stance of reaching out to his fallen son and he attempted to restore him, and help him get right with God. For the way he did that he took much criticism and people used that to criticize. Many who had been wronged wanted to see Dave suffer, they still do. Whereas they wanted revenge, Bro. Hyles wanted to see restoration. I wonder who's right according to the scripture?

I think you are a bit off base here. It wasn't that people were angered that Jack Hyles wanted to restore his son. It was that Jack Hyles had repeatedly ignored Dave's behavior and assisted Dave in gaining the pastorate at Miller Road. No one who knew Dave was surprised by what happened. Dave's wickedness did not start at Miller Road. It was well documented prior to that period. Once the facts of Miller Road were known, the denials did not end.  Anyone questioning what happened was attacking God's man.

My take on what happened after the Biblical Evangelist articles and the books written by Voyle Glover and Vic Nischik also varies from yours. The FBC membership became even more radicalized in defense of their pastor. The 100% Hyles Supporters wore buttons proclaiming such and anyone who did not was suspect. Those who began thinking the Emporer had no clothes were definitely labeled as malcontents, disloyal and  were to be shunned. George Godfrey's home was broken into and his yard was vandalized by these radical fundamentalists. families were split and friendships were broken and it all depended on how loyal to the Preacher you were.

My personal take is the downfall began as the actual rising up started. Take your pick:

1. The Christianity Today "Worlds Largest Sunday School" article and the corresponding pride that occurred afterward pumped up the egos of both the Pastor and the members to obscene levels. Pride goeth before a fall.

2. The founding of Hyles-Anderson College became an institution dedicated to preparing the hearts and minds of young people to worship The Lord Jack Hyles. Naming the college after himself and his monetary benefactor should have been a clue that the intentions may not have been entirely altruistic.

I realize that the ministry of FBC/HAC grew somewhat exponentially after both of those events I cataloged so I can understand if no one really agrees that those events began the downfall.
 
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Thank you No Refund you are correct in your post....
 
Lol@  JH was a Baptist....

He was a fundamentalist.
 
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