Throwback to some of the "Good ol' Days" of the FFF!
Who is the subject of the verb prepared in Romans 9:22?
- Thread starter Bob Jones V
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I answered this in the post you quoted.
No, man's works cannot earn him favor with God.
Is this a kindergarten orthodoxy pop quiz?
I say God but problem with Calvinists I'd say they still miss the context of the passage .
There's no place in Rom 1 that says Pharaoh and Egypt was slated for judgment without he and his nation bringing it upon themselves. When they reached the line of wrong doing and became worthy of judgment God prepared them for it. Notice the phrase from the text below,
What if God intending to show his wrath and make his power known bore with great patience the vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction?
The showing great patience here was not that they would repent. They had already by their choices crossed the line where they were slated for destruction. God could have blasted Egypt with a meteorite or something similar prior to their destruction. He restrained the judgment he was going to bring (he showed patience) so that this would be the judgement...it would be progressive. From one plague 10 of them to the Red Sea incidence. In that way the judgement would be seen from the world as an amazing thing for other nations to see and know it had to be God delivering his people.
Problem with Calvinists though they miss key verses.
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Rom 9:14
One has to not let this be an island by itself. One needs to ask what do all the scriptures' say about mercy and how and why God shows it? You'll see verses everywhere along the line that blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy and different ways the truth is expressed. What we do by our actions and choices what we do designates us for either deliverance and salvation or judgment. Egypt at one time was blessed by God under Joseph but that nation and people became cruel and unmerciful by becoming oppressors. So does God have a right to bring down such a nation? Of course. The potter has the right to make rebellious and evil clay into a vessel of destruction.
Sorry but you need to go back and read Rom 1.
They were NOT reprobate from their beginning. The Bible is clear.
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, (they became vain...they weren't from the beginning of their lives) and their foolish heart was darkened. (their hearts weren't foolish from the start....they became that way) 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (they became it)
After they became it....he gave them over (see vs 24)
Now look at verse 28,
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind,
Now notice they were NOT given over to a reprobate mind UNTIL after God watched what they'd do with the knowledge he gave them.
Of course if he responds properly to God he obtains favor with God. And by the way merely by responding positively to God IS NOT trying to be saved by the keeping of the law. Man by himself does not have the goodness to achieve that. He can however come into agreement with God which opens the door for God to release his grace.
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And you need to go back and read your own quote.
when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful... (21)
They knew God, but rejected him. They were already reprobate. All that stuff you bolded was the result.
Thank you for your honesty and for the clear articulation of your synergistic, semi-pelagian stance.
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-- "Calvinists who automatically label anyone who is not Calvinist as being "Semi-Pelagian" are dead wrong and may even have to give account to God regarding the bearing of false witness against their brother! I do not wish to be that person!"
baptist renegade... december 8, 2022 ...
thread - "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.."
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Touché, but sometimes someone actually is semi-Pelagian.
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true.... but when we get into the habit of applying labels to everything and everyone we disagree with.... or in some cases might simply misunderstand... we run the risk of committing the blasphemy of condemning something.. or even some person, that God is working through.... ..
the first time i had that label applied to me i didn;t know what it meant... i had to look it up..... and in doing so learned being lumped in with pelagius was worse than being compared to servetus... who calvin - though not a catholic himself - not only burned alive over a pile of green wood... but was happy to use catholic inquisitors to locate, then capture, and secure servetus to the stake ... ..all under the authority of queen mary of england.... also know as bloody mary... who changed religions back and forth between protestant and catholic as it pleased her.. and as it served her political ambitions...
what i am saying... is that some labels... even the label of calvinist... often come off as nothing but a declaration that you believe those you disagree with ..(such as a semi-pelagian).... should be tied up and burned the same way religious opponents in medieval europe were....
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I believe the statement he made to be semi-pelagian. Perhaps he did not intend it as such and perhaps he should rethink his statement?
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Semi-pelagianism is easy enough to understand. It's a synergistic theory of salvation in which the sinner makes the first free choice to draw closer to God, which God aids through providence, grace, restraint of demons, guiding the sinner through moral choices, etc.
Official Roman Catholic theology is semi-Augustinianism, which is more or less the same thing, except that God takes the first step to draw the sinner in. In semi-Pelagianism, it's the sinner. Both versions are attempts at finding a middle ground between full-blown Pelagianism (in which original sin is denied and salvation is wholly due to human efforts) and full-blown Augustinianism (in which original sin renders the sinner incapable of seeking God, and it is God alone who draws the sinner to himself).
Your history is a real mishmash. Let me see if I can straighten this out for you:
It is true that Calvin believed the death penalty was appropriate for Servetus. The catch is, so did everyone else. Heresy was universally regarded as a civil offence, not merely an ecclesiastical one.
However, it wasn't Calvin that caused Servetus to be burned. That was the government of Geneva. Calvin and the other ministers urged the council to behead him, a faster and more humane death. But the council was dominated by the Libertines, a political party that basically had opposing everything Calvin stood for as their reason for existence. Even Servetus' burning was an act of spite against Calvin.
Calvin himself wasn't even a citizen of Geneva; he was a barely tolerated legal resident alien. He had no authority to try or execute anyone. As the pastor, he could impose church discipline, like refusing communion to the unrepentant. That was it, basically.
Servetus wasn't burned on green wood. You might be thinking of Hugh Latimer and Nicholas Ridley, burned in England in 1555. Servetus was burned on a pile of his own books.
Servetus had actually already been imprisoned for heresy in France, but escaped. He and Calvin had been involved in a very heated exchange of letters, to the point that Calvin just cut it off. For some insane reason Servetus fled to Geneva (despite having no reason to believe it would be a safe harbour), attended a church service at which Calvin was preaching, was apparently recognized, and subsequently arrested.
The inquisitors wanted to extradite him back to France, but the Genevans refused to turn him over. They had nothing to do with his trial or execution.
Mary I had no jurisdiction over Geneva. Why would she be involved? She remained committed for the entire five years of her reign to Catholicism, and persecuting English reformers.
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Bloody Mary never switched religions. She was always Roman Catholic.
Happy Ash Wednesday, everybody - today is the day that all good Catholics go to the priest and make an "ash" of themselves.
Happy Ash Wednesday, everybody - today is the day that all good Catholics go to the priest and make an "ash" of themselves.
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"Butthead"?
What are you doing in the adult section?
You have nothing to add.
You are a sarcastic ass.
The World won't miss you.
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you are correct.... i confused servetus with john hooper... (who was definitely burned on green wood..the popular method of the day for heretic burning.. and burned under the authority of mary 1st..)... ... and hooper was condemned by a different set of catholic inquisitors than the ones who assisted calvin in identifying.. capturing ..or restraining - servetus... (however it should be described)........
the engraving i have seen of servetus execution show him being burned atop a large stack of wood (no indication in the picture whether it is green or not)..... and while i know medieval artists got things wrong from time to time... one must ask the question - if servetus was burned on his own books... how did the guys in geneva manage to find enough books written by servetus to make a pile of adequate size?.. ..could it be the pyre was built of wood and then servetus books thrown on for good measure?... and if geneva hated calvin as much as they hated servetus why did they not burn them together?... ..
... i know you have studied this history more than i have..... and the first time i ever heard of servetus it did not come from a religious source... it came from pre-med... where we were taught that he was a pioneer in studying and documenting pulmonary circulation..... and that it was his medical studies.. (all that was required to learn about the human body).., combined with his belief that religion and the state should be separated...which made servetus condemnable by catholics - protestants - calvin ..and religiously minded monarchs alike..... ....
but much of the history from that time... ..even that medical account... often conflicts with other accounts depending on which country a historian who wrote it was was from ... and in many cases which religion he adhered to... ... .people from different sides who were eye witnesses to events often made sworn statements that were contradictory.... one swears to green wood the other says books.....
even today one sides accepted documentation of recent history is considered propaganda by the other ....... and the passage of time does little to clarify those kinds of controversies... time only serves to further cloud them as the people who were first hand witnesses die off and the things they swore to are replaced with myths.. legends.. imaginations or just outright lies.... what people not tied to either catholics or baptists see of those arguments today, is groups of different people accepting one version of history or another depending entirely on what their own religion is.... ..or in the case of pagan medical professors declaring both sides to be at fault....
as far as bloody mary goes - i was taught from a separate source, that her mother was catholic but her father.. king henry ..and the rest of the family.. were protestant.. ..and until she actually took the throne she was tolerant of protestants... she had to be in order to gain their favor and secure the throne.. .. so based on appearances alone most people in england at that time thought she was protestant.. and she allowed them to believe that... ..... once on the throne she re-instated the popes anti-heresy edicts that allowed for the burning of heretics and began burning protestants...
the way some people associate calvin with bloody mary could simply be that they were contemporaries...plus the fact that calvin burned servetus the same year mary took power ..and the way the burning of heretics on greenwood became popular at the same time...
fact of the matter... and what i originally tried to point out..... is that servetus was burned.... and the same people who burned him also wanted pelagius burned.... when anyone today is compared to either a servetus or a pelagian by those who have said in the past the burning of servetus was a righteous act - does that imply they might also think the same thing should happen to the person they are now comparing to pelagius?.....
should all of us who strongly disagree with calvinism be burned alive?... even those who God might be working through?... ..i know what i thought the first time i was called a semi-pelagian then looked it up to see what that meant.... of course i already knew people in the augustinian age of rome and also in the medieval european age of calvin and mary, would have burned me alive based on mental illness issues and schizophrenia alone....
the engraving i have seen of servetus execution show him being burned atop a large stack of wood (no indication in the picture whether it is green or not)..... and while i know medieval artists got things wrong from time to time... one must ask the question - if servetus was burned on his own books... how did the guys in geneva manage to find enough books written by servetus to make a pile of adequate size?.. ..could it be the pyre was built of wood and then servetus books thrown on for good measure?... and if geneva hated calvin as much as they hated servetus why did they not burn them together?... ..
... i know you have studied this history more than i have..... and the first time i ever heard of servetus it did not come from a religious source... it came from pre-med... where we were taught that he was a pioneer in studying and documenting pulmonary circulation..... and that it was his medical studies.. (all that was required to learn about the human body).., combined with his belief that religion and the state should be separated...which made servetus condemnable by catholics - protestants - calvin ..and religiously minded monarchs alike..... ....
but much of the history from that time... ..even that medical account... often conflicts with other accounts depending on which country a historian who wrote it was was from ... and in many cases which religion he adhered to... ... .people from different sides who were eye witnesses to events often made sworn statements that were contradictory.... one swears to green wood the other says books.....
even today one sides accepted documentation of recent history is considered propaganda by the other ....... and the passage of time does little to clarify those kinds of controversies... time only serves to further cloud them as the people who were first hand witnesses die off and the things they swore to are replaced with myths.. legends.. imaginations or just outright lies.... what people not tied to either catholics or baptists see of those arguments today, is groups of different people accepting one version of history or another depending entirely on what their own religion is.... ..or in the case of pagan medical professors declaring both sides to be at fault....
as far as bloody mary goes - i was taught from a separate source, that her mother was catholic but her father.. king henry ..and the rest of the family.. were protestant.. ..and until she actually took the throne she was tolerant of protestants... she had to be in order to gain their favor and secure the throne.. .. so based on appearances alone most people in england at that time thought she was protestant.. and she allowed them to believe that... ..... once on the throne she re-instated the popes anti-heresy edicts that allowed for the burning of heretics and began burning protestants...
the way some people associate calvin with bloody mary could simply be that they were contemporaries...plus the fact that calvin burned servetus the same year mary took power ..and the way the burning of heretics on greenwood became popular at the same time...
fact of the matter... and what i originally tried to point out..... is that servetus was burned.... and the same people who burned him also wanted pelagius burned.... when anyone today is compared to either a servetus or a pelagian by those who have said in the past the burning of servetus was a righteous act - does that imply they might also think the same thing should happen to the person they are now comparing to pelagius?.....
should all of us who strongly disagree with calvinism be burned alive?... even those who God might be working through?... ..i know what i thought the first time i was called a semi-pelagian then looked it up to see what that meant.... of course i already knew people in the augustinian age of rome and also in the medieval european age of calvin and mary, would have burned me alive based on mental illness issues and schizophrenia alone....
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So you bring out the ole boogie man of pelagian.
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Throwback to some of the "Good ol' Days" of the FFF!
Buckwheat
Some Calvinists would do this and some would not. Two things....we live in a culture which has conditioned most people's way of thinking that such is not acceptable and that's a good thing.
Also some wouldn't for they genuinely do have the love of God in their hearts. Some don't and are mere religionists. Some goes for some Non-Calvinists as well. To know who would be prone to do this observe how some respond to those of whom they disagree. Is the way they respond always malicious put downs never seeking nor seeing a need to speak in a gracious kind way? If all is looking to do is to find fleshly satisfaction and impart hate and disdain I think you can know if we lived hundreds of years ago you'd be strung up and burned.
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When I looked into the mud puddle yesterday, I was your relatives floating around. Have a great day, Butthead... puss-bucket 'prophet' for profit.
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Now we know why Canada is assisting meat bags your age in suicide....