Who's who in HACindom

[Citadel of Truth]

Does that mean that any Pastor, church or school who changes direction automatically betrays someone?

I believe that any pastor, if he comes to a church with a hidden agenda, whether he's moving to the right or to the left, is deceptive. The church called (hired) him based on what he portrayed himself to be. If he changes after a few years, he's done the church a disservice.

And if a parent sends his child to the college he is expecting the college to be what is advertised.

Not at all an unreasonable expectation, IMO.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Citadel of Truth:
I believe that any pastor, if he comes to a church with a hidden agenda, whether he's moving to the right or to the left, is deceptive. The church called (hired) him based on what he portrayed himself to be. If he changes after a few years, he's done the church a disservice.

RAIDER
And if a parent sends his child to the college he is expecting the college to be what is advertised.

So, a change in philosophy would be dishonest?
I would hate to take a church and not have liberty to make changes.

I have Pastored where I am for a few decades and we have made many, many changes....because we thought the changes would enhance our ministry, strengthen our outreach and help to grow and strengthen the church.

I'm giving some detail, but I am really puzzled by your 'take' on a Pastor and church changing.
And I am not being a contrarian just for the sake of being contrary.

We gradually changed our music to a more contemporary style...we added some instruments and sing some worship songs...along with hymns.
That was after we had been having a certain style music for years and years.
A few years ago, we added a screen and stopped using hymnbooks.
We no longer require our musicians to wear ties on the platform...although I still do...most Sundays.
We went from a traditional Sunday evening service to a semester based 'Bible Institute' on Sunday nights.
We have added multiple services and Sunday school sessions...which really twerped a few people.
And we plan to add another service and Sunday school session in September, Lord willing.

Did some of the changes cause some people to leave?
Absolutely! (But, we have grown by hundreds over the same period of time.)

Was that dishonest to those who might not like the changes and had been supporting the ministry for years?

 

[Citadel of Truth]

So, a change in philosophy would be dishonest?
I would hate to take a church and not have liberty to make changes...

No, not all change is deceptive. It is when a man takes a church with a hidden agenda and plans to make changes while all the while presenting himself as someone who will be exactly what they are wanting when they hired him.

Kinda like a politician....says anything you want him to say until he gets elected. 

 

[RAIDER]

So, a change in philosophy would be dishonest?
I would hate to take a church and not have liberty to make changes.

I have Pastored where I am for a few decades and we have made many, many changes....because we thought the changes would enhance our ministry, strengthen our outreach and help to grow and strengthen the church.

I'm giving some detail, but I am really puzzled by your 'take' on a Pastor and church changing.
And I am not being a contrarian just for the sake of being contrary.

We gradually changed our music to a more contemporary style...we added some instruments and sing some worship songs...along with hymns.
That was after we had been having a certain style music for years and years.
A few years ago, we added a screen and stopped using hymnbooks.
We no longer require our musicians to wear ties on the platform...although I still do...most Sundays.
We went from a traditional Sunday evening service to a semester based 'Bible Institute' on Sunday nights.
We have added multiple services and Sunday school sessions...which really twerped a few people.
And we plan to add another service and Sunday school session in September, Lord willing.

Did some of the changes cause some people to leave?
Absolutely! (But, we have grown by hundreds over the same period of time.)

Was that dishonest to those who might not like the changes and had been supporting the ministry for years?

I'll try to be more specific. 

A parent takes their child to visit a Bible college started by an IFB church.  While at the college and church they are told - This is the only version of the Bible that we allow to be used in our church and college.  Here are the dress standards.  Here is a list of our church services.  Here is where we stand on music.  Here are those with whom we associate.  Here are the ministries that we offer.

They send their freshman child and finances to the college.  The student goes back and during their junior year they start hearing staff say that they use other versions on the Bible.  The dress standards totally change.  Church services are done away with.  The music changes drastically.  The college staff takes a change to those who are moving this direction.

Yes, this is an IFB church.  They can change in whatever way they choose.  On the other hand, this ministry has told parents where they stand.  If they want to be honest they should notify the parents of college students and explain the new direction.  To change directions like Champion and Gospel Light have without notifying the parents of college students who have put their trust in them is wrong! 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

So, a change in philosophy would be dishonest?
I would hate to take a church and not have liberty to make changes...

No, not all change is deceptive. It is when a man takes a church with a hidden agenda and plans to make changes while all the while presenting himself as someone who will be exactly what they are wanting when they hired him.

Kinda like a politician....says anything you want him to say until he gets elected.

You have me there, I can't determine if his agenda is 'hidden' or he simply believes it is the best direction for the church.
Now, IF a man takes a church and says one thing as a candidate and does the opposite when he becomes Pastor, he is a crook and a liar.
But, if a pastor is in a ministry over a period of time and comes to believe a change in direction and philosophy is needful for the good of the ministry is another matter!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

So, a change in philosophy would be dishonest?
I would hate to take a church and not have liberty to make changes.

I have Pastored where I am for a few decades and we have made many, many changes....because we thought the changes would enhance our ministry, strengthen our outreach and help to grow and strengthen the church.

I'm giving some detail, but I am really puzzled by your 'take' on a Pastor and church changing.
And I am not being a contrarian just for the sake of being contrary.

We gradually changed our music to a more contemporary style...we added some instruments and sing some worship songs...along with hymns.
That was after we had been having a certain style music for years and years.
A few years ago, we added a screen and stopped using hymnbooks.
We no longer require our musicians to wear ties on the platform...although I still do...most Sundays.
We went from a traditional Sunday evening service to a semester based 'Bible Institute' on Sunday nights.
We have added multiple services and Sunday school sessions...which really twerped a few people.
And we plan to add another service and Sunday school session in September, Lord willing.

Did some of the changes cause some people to leave?
Absolutely! (But, we have grown by hundreds over the same period of time.)

Was that dishonest to those who might not like the changes and had been supporting the ministry for years?

I'll try to be more specific. 

A parent takes their child to visit a Bible college started by an IFB church.  While at the college and church they are told - This is the only version of the Bible that we allow to be used in our church and college.  Here are the dress standards.  Here is a list of our church services.  Here is where we stand on music.  Here are those with whom we associate.  Here are the ministries that we offer.

They send their freshman child and finances to the college.  The student goes back and during their junior year they start hearing staff say that they use other versions on the Bible.  The dress standards totally change.  Church services are done away with.  The music changes drastically.  The college staff takes a change to those who are moving this direction.

Yes, this is an IFB church.  They can change in whatever way they choose.  On the other hand, this ministry has told parents where they stand.  If they want to be honest they should notify the parents of college students and explain the new direction.  To change directions like Champion and Gospel Light have without notifying the parents of college students who have put their trust in them is wrong!

Again, I don't know Champion other than what I read here and their website, but IF they were deceitful, then you have a valid point.
But IF they determined that changes were needed in order to strengthen the ministry long term, then that's another matter. We are catching 'heck' in our ministry this year because we brought in a new Senior High Pastor in the fall. he replaced a long time leader who moved to another position on our staff. The Seniors (and a few juniors) and their parents claim we were unfair to them. they wanted us to wait a year or so and be unfair to another group of seniors.

 

[RAIDER]

Again, I don't know Champion other than what I read here and their website, but IF they were deceitful, then you have a valid point.
But IF they determined that changes were needed in order to strengthen the ministry long term, then that's another matter. We are catching 'heck' in our ministry this year because we brought in a new Senior High Pastor in the fall. he replaced a long time leader who moved to another position on our staff. The Seniors (and a few juniors) and their parents claim we were unfair to them. they wanted us to wait a year or so and be unfair to another group of seniors.

My problem in theory is not so much the changing of the church.  It is an IFB church and if the people and the pastor agree on the change, so be it.  My problem is when you have a college directly connected to the church.  Parents should be notified when changes of this magnitude are being implemented.  This would give the parent and student an opportunity to make a decision based on fact. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Again, I don't know Champion other than what I read here and their website, but IF they were deceitful, then you have a valid point.
But IF they determined that changes were needed in order to strengthen the ministry long term, then that's another matter. We are catching 'heck' in our ministry this year because we brought in a new Senior High Pastor in the fall. he replaced a long time leader who moved to another position on our staff. The Seniors (and a few juniors) and their parents claim we were unfair to them. they wanted us to wait a year or so and be unfair to another group of seniors.

My problem in theory is not so much the changing of the church.  It is an IFB church and if the people and the pastor agree on the change, so be it.  My problem is when you have a college directly connected to the church.  Parents should be notified when changes of this magnitude are being implemented.  This would give the parent and student an opportunity to make a decision based on fact.

And, I do see your point.
If the parents believe in and want a KJVO, no pants, piano only etc. so be it.
But, the other side of the coin is that if Champion's leadership, and the church, decided changes needed to be made, someone will get caught in the shuffle no matter how he does it.

And, for him to be in your movement and know the ropes I can't imagine he thought he could pull the wool over anyone's eyes. 

 

[SwampHag]

Does that mean that any Pastor, church or school who changes direction automatically betrays someone?

I believe that any pastor, if he comes to a church with a hidden agenda, whether he's moving to the right or to the left, is deceptive. The church called (hired) him based on what he portrayed himself to be. If he changes after a few years, he's done the church a disservice.

And if a parent sends his child to the college he is expecting the college to be what is advertised.

18 year olds should choose college for themselves instead of being 'sent'.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Does that mean that any Pastor, church or school who changes direction automatically betrays someone?

I believe that any pastor, if he comes to a church with a hidden agenda, whether he's moving to the right or to the left, is deceptive. The church called (hired) him based on what he portrayed himself to be. If he changes after a few years, he's done the church a disservice.

And if a parent sends his child to the college he is expecting the college to be what is advertised.

18 year olds should choose college for themselves instead of being 'sent'.

YESSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Darkwing Duck]

My problem in theory is not so much the changing of the church.  It is an IFB church and if the people and the pastor agree on the change, so be it.  My problem is when you have a college directly connected to the church.  Parents should be notified when changes of this magnitude are being implemented.  This would give the parent and student an opportunity to make a decision based on fact.

Ok, I can understand this.
I was not under the impression that Capaci was being deceptive but if that was the case then I also see why parents might feel betrayed.
I was more arguing along the lines that a pastor should be willing to change if he believes God wants him to without worrying about "betraying" anyone.
And while I personally have no issue with Capaci's "changes", someone else already brought up that Dr. Hyles did the same thing when he came to FBC. So I'm not arguing about the changes themselves but rather the right to change.

 

[bgwilkinson]

My problem in theory is not so much the changing of the church.  It is an IFB church and if the people and the pastor agree on the change, so be it.  My problem is when you have a college directly connected to the church.  Parents should be notified when changes of this magnitude are being implemented.  This would give the parent and student an opportunity to make a decision based on fact.

Ok, I can understand this.
I was not under the impression that Capaci was being deceptive but if that was the case then I also see why parents might feel betrayed.
I was more arguing along the lines that a pastor should be willing to change if he believes God wants him to without worrying about "betraying" anyone.
And while I personally have no issue with Capaci's "changes", someone else already brought up that Dr. Hyles did the same thing when he came to FBC. So I'm not arguing about the changes themselves but rather the right to change.

The problem with Bro. Hyles is that he imposed his will on the church regardless of what many old time members believed. It was more of the my way or the Highway. He proclaimed that his philosophies were God's will and dared anyone to disagree with him. He loved a good fight.

We are still paying for that attitude that has split many families and left bitterness on both sides.

Mabel Boardway's mom and dad stayed while Ray's mom and dad left.

The hurt caused this one family is still on going. Mabel just mentioned it last week, that is why I mentioned it.

 

[RAIDER]

Does that mean that any Pastor, church or school who changes direction automatically betrays someone?

I believe that any pastor, if he comes to a church with a hidden agenda, whether he's moving to the right or to the left, is deceptive. The church called (hired) him based on what he portrayed himself to be. If he changes after a few years, he's done the church a disservice.

And if a parent sends his child to the college he is expecting the college to be what is advertised.

18 year olds should choose college for themselves instead of being 'sent'.

A parent should allow the child to choose but should also have veto power.  Even if the child chooses the parents send.

 

[SwampHag]

Does that mean that any Pastor, church or school who changes direction automatically betrays someone?

I believe that any pastor, if he comes to a church with a hidden agenda, whether he's moving to the right or to the left, is deceptive. The church called (hired) him based on what he portrayed himself to be. If he changes after a few years, he's done the church a disservice.

And if a parent sends his child to the college he is expecting the college to be what is advertised.

18 year olds should choose college for themselves instead of being 'sent'.

A parent should allow the child to choose but should also have veto power.  Even if the child chooses the parents send.

I chose for myself at 18 and paid EVERY DIME of my own education.
My sons chose for themselves and paid their own way.
Why should I have veto power?  If I reared them properly, they will make a good choice and respect my input.  I shouldn't have to 'veto' where my adult children go to school.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Does that mean that any Pastor, church or school who changes direction automatically betrays someone?

I believe that any pastor, if he comes to a church with a hidden agenda, whether he's moving to the right or to the left, is deceptive. The church called (hired) him based on what he portrayed himself to be. If he changes after a few years, he's done the church a disservice.

And if a parent sends his child to the college he is expecting the college to be what is advertised.

18 year olds should choose college for themselves instead of being 'sent'.

A parent should allow the child to choose but should also have veto power.  Even if the child chooses the parents send.

I wholeheartedly disagree. As a parent, I have the power of suggestion to my 18-year old but ultimately, all decisions are their own.

My oldest daughter just turned 19 three weeks ago. She is a student at UNCC and she is working and paying her entire tuition. She has a job plus works weekly for Special Olympics. Two weeks ago, she asked me what I thought about her moving out. I laid out for her what the expenses would be as well as possible dangers she might face. Last week, she announced she put down $ for an apartment in the summer, moving in with her best friend. She came to me with a budget, showing what scholarships she will get toward her tuition and a game plan on how she will pay for everything. She will be only about 3 miles away from me and about a mile from her brother, but she chose a very secure apartment facility.

I asked her why she wanted to move out instead of waiting until graduation. She told me that we taught her how to be an adult and she felt that even though she is quite nervous, thought that it would be a good thing to live on her own and provide for herself. I say "Kudos" to her and I"m very proud of her decision to leave us. She is mature, has great character and I know she will thrive. (Mom is quite sad though, because she is losing her in-house "buddy". )

I have no authority to veto any decision my adult kids make. I can simply give advice. Sometimes they take it, sometimes they don't but to this point, it hasn't backfired at all.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Does that mean that any Pastor, church or school who changes direction automatically betrays someone?

I believe that any pastor, if he comes to a church with a hidden agenda, whether he's moving to the right or to the left, is deceptive. The church called (hired) him based on what he portrayed himself to be. If he changes after a few years, he's done the church a disservice.

And if a parent sends his child to the college he is expecting the college to be what is advertised.

18 year olds should choose college for themselves instead of being 'sent'.

A parent should allow the child to choose but should also have veto power.  Even if the child chooses the parents send.

I chose for myself at 18 and paid EVERY DIME of my own education.
My sons chose for themselves and paid their own way.
Why should I have veto power?  If I reared them properly, they will make a good choice and respect my input.  I shouldn't have to 'veto' where my adult children go to school.

Bulls-eye!

Applied the same ideal in my household.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

My problem in theory is not so much the changing of the church.  It is an IFB church and if the people and the pastor agree on the change, so be it.  My problem is when you have a college directly connected to the church.  Parents should be notified when changes of this magnitude are being implemented.  This would give the parent and student an opportunity to make a decision based on fact.

Ok, I can understand this.
I was not under the impression that Capaci was being deceptive but if that was the case then I also see why parents might feel betrayed.
I was more arguing along the lines that a pastor should be willing to change if he believes God wants him to without worrying about "betraying" anyone.
And while I personally have no issue with Capaci's "changes", someone else already brought up that Dr. Hyles did the same thing when he came to FBC. So I'm not arguing about the changes themselves but rather the right to change.

The problem with Bro. Hyles is that he imposed his will on the church regardless of what many old time members believed. It was more of the my way or the Highway. He proclaimed that his philosophies were God's will and dared anyone to disagree with him. He loved a good fight.

We are still paying for that attitude that has split many families and left bitterness on both sides.

Mabel Boardway's mom and dad stayed while Ray's mom and dad left.

The hurt caused this one family is still on going. Mabel just mentioned it last week, that is why I mentioned it.

Would what Dr Hyles did at FBH count as having a hidden agenda?
Did some of the long time members there legitimately feel betrayed?
Surely when he accepted the pastorate he knew what he was going to 'have to do'.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Does that mean that any Pastor, church or school who changes direction automatically betrays someone?

I believe that any pastor, if he comes to a church with a hidden agenda, whether he's moving to the right or to the left, is deceptive. The church called (hired) him based on what he portrayed himself to be. If he changes after a few years, he's done the church a disservice.

And if a parent sends his child to the college he is expecting the college to be what is advertised.

18 year olds should choose college for themselves instead of being 'sent'.

A parent should allow the child to choose but should also have veto power.  Even if the child chooses the parents send.

Perhaps that might be true in some instances, if the parents don't trust the child's judgment. But , like Swamphag, when I attended college, I chose the school and had to pay my own way....with my Mom's blessing. The same process repeated when I chose to leave my IFB establishment school to transfer to Liberty.

I think your way of doing it was probably more prevalent in the circles you are familiar with, but the times have changed...even in that small segment of IFB-Dom. The results are that the once thriving schools struggle and many close.

And I say that with some sadness. TTU died because the alumni refused to allow anyone to make some of the changes Capaci made......

 

[Citadel of Truth]

...if a pastor is in a ministry over a period of time and comes to believe a change in direction and philosophy is needful for the good of the ministry is another matter!

I do not disagree with this except to say that the "good of the ministry" needs to be subservient to the will of God. What's good for the ministry in the eyes of the pastor may or may not be bringing the ministry closer to God's ideal.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

...if a pastor is in a ministry over a period of time and comes to believe a change in direction and philosophy is needful for the good of the ministry is another matter!

I do not disagree with this except to say that the "good of the ministry" needs to be subservient to the will of God. What's good for the ministry in the eyes of the pastor may or may not be bringing the ministry closer to God's ideal.

That's a question that is underlying even if a ministry 'stays the course'. Isn't it understood that what we are doing is the way God is leading...therefore would be best for the ministry? Would anyone say we're doing this in spite of God's will or His leading us otherwise....I know that sounds absurd, but it goes to the point.