Who's who in HACindom

[Citadel of Truth]

...if a pastor is in a ministry over a period of time and comes to believe a change in direction and philosophy is needful for the good of the ministry is another matter!

I do not disagree with this except to say that the "good of the ministry" needs to be subservient to the will of God. What's good for the ministry in the eyes of the pastor may or may not be bringing the ministry closer to God's ideal.

That's a question that is underlying even if a ministry 'stays the course'. Isn't it understood that what we are doing is the way God is leading...therefore would be best for the ministry? Would anyone say we're doing this in spite of God's will or His leading us otherwise....I know that sounds absurd, but it goes to the point.

One would think that to be the case; but, sadly, it isn't always. Many pastors are following a model other than the model set forth in the Word of God.

I understand that the issue can be somewhat subjective and many times deal in semantics. The phrases "purpose-driven", "seeker-sensitive", "progressive", etc. are all good and noble phrases. Unfortunately, these have become synonymous with compromise and liberal leanings (at least in the mind of the IFBs). 

For me, the issue is a matter of direction. Are we giving up ground that we'll never be able to reclaim? Are we laying aside truths to which we've held for decades in order to gain the appearance "success" or to make our church more "appealing"? Or, are some just tired of fighting and no longer take a stand?
 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

...if a pastor is in a ministry over a period of time and comes to believe a change in direction and philosophy is needful for the good of the ministry is another matter!

I do not disagree with this except to say that the "good of the ministry" needs to be subservient to the will of God. What's good for the ministry in the eyes of the pastor may or may not be bringing the ministry closer to God's ideal.

That's a question that is underlying even if a ministry 'stays the course'. Isn't it understood that what we are doing is the way God is leading...therefore would be best for the ministry? Would anyone say we're doing this in spite of God's will or His leading us otherwise....I know that sounds absurd, but it goes to the point.

One would think that to be the case; but, sadly, it isn't always. Many pastors are following a model other than the model set forth in the Word of God.

I understand that the issue can be somewhat subjective and many times deal in semantics. The phrases "purpose-driven", "seeker-sensitive", "progressive", etc. are all good and noble phrases. Unfortunately, these have become synonymous with compromise and liberal leanings (at least in the mind of the IFBs). 

For me, the issue is a matter of direction. Are we giving up ground that we'll never be able to reclaim? Are we laying aside truths to which we've held for decades in order to gain the appearance "success" or to make our church more "appealing"? Or, are some just tired of fighting and no longer take a stand?

I would respectfully disagree that there are plans or a model set out in the word of God as far as worship style and methods are concerned. Seeker sensitive, and purpose driven are catch phrases and stereotypes put out at a Sword Conference by men who have no actual idea what they really mean...in many cases. Plus they are also dated phrases, except in Sword Conferences. 

Some years ago, I attended a Rick Warren Purpose Driven conference in Lynchburg. It was, IMO an excellent resource. I didn't change our church and wear Hawaii themed shirts, but learned many principles to help our ministry. Every church should be purpose driven do t you agree?
Later that summer, I attened the Sword Conference in Walkertowm and heard many speakers denounce Purpose Driven as evil and un-Biblical. And they had NO idea what PD even was, but that didn't stop them from defining and condemning it soundly!

Ground we might never be able to reclaim?
As to music styles?
As to using the NKJV or the NASV?
As to, like Raider, our ladies wear pants?

Again, I'm no IFB basher, but I just don't get it.
And I would suggest that many of the things you are fighting about and fighting for are taking your time while you are losing ground that really does matter.

MANY in the IFB movement today are like those at the dedication of Zerubbabel's temple.....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

...if a pastor is in a ministry over a period of time and comes to believe a change in direction and philosophy is needful for the good of the ministry is another matter!

I do not disagree with this except to say that the "good of the ministry" needs to be subservient to the will of God. What's good for the ministry in the eyes of the pastor may or may not be bringing the ministry closer to God's ideal.

That's a question that is underlying even if a ministry 'stays the course'. Isn't it understood that what we are doing is the way God is leading...therefore would be best for the ministry? Would anyone say we're doing this in spite of God's will or His leading us otherwise....I know that sounds absurd, but it goes to the point.

One would think that to be the case; but, sadly, it isn't always. Many pastors are following a model other than the model set forth in the Word of God.

I understand that the issue can be somewhat subjective and many times deal in semantics. The phrases "purpose-driven", "seeker-sensitive", "progressive", etc. are all good and noble phrases. Unfortunately, these have become synonymous with compromise and liberal leanings (at least in the mind of the IFBs). 

For me, the issue is a matter of direction. Are we giving up ground that we'll never be able to reclaim? Are we laying aside truths to which we've held for decades in order to gain the appearance "success" or to make our church more "appealing"? Or, are some just tired of fighting and no longer take a stand?

I would respectfully disagree that there are plans or a model set out in the word of God as far as worship style and methods are concerned. Seeker sensitive, and purpose driven are catch phrases and stereotypes put out at a Sword Conference by men who have no actual idea what they really mean...in many cases. Plus they are also dated phrases, except in Sword Conferences. 

Some years ago, I attended a Rick Warren Purpose Driven conference in Lynchburg. It was, IMO an excellent resource. I didn't change our church and wear Hawaii themed shirts, but learned many principles to help our ministry. Every church should be purpose driven do t you agree?
Later that summer, I attened the Sword Conference in Walkertowm and heard many speakers denounce Purpose Driven as evil and un-Biblical. And they had NO idea what PD even was, but that didn't stop them from defining and condemning it soundly!

Ground we might never be able to reclaim?
As to music styles?
As to using the NKJV or the NASV?
As to, like Raider, our ladies wear pants?

Again, I'm no IFB basher, but I just don't get it.
And I would suggest that many of the things you are fighting about and fighting for are taking your time while you are losing ground that really does matter.

MANY in the IFB movement today are like those at the dedication of Zerubbabel's temple.....

I was just wondering....

 

[RAIDER]

I would respectfully disagree that there are plans or a model set out in the word of God as far as worship style and methods are concerned. Seeker sensitive, and purpose driven are catch phrases and stereotypes put out at a Sword Conference by men who have no actual idea what they really mean...in many cases. Plus they are also dated phrases, except in Sword Conferences. 

Some years ago, I attended a Rick Warren Purpose Driven conference in Lynchburg. It was, IMO an excellent resource. I didn't change our church and wear Hawaii themed shirts, but learned many principles to help our ministry. Every church should be purpose driven do t you agree?
Later that summer, I attened the Sword Conference in Walkertowm and heard many speakers denounce Purpose Driven as evil and un-Biblical. And they had NO idea what PD even was, but that didn't stop them from defining and condemning it soundly!

Ground we might never be able to reclaim?
As to music styles?
As to using the NKJV or the NASV?
As to, like Raider, our ladies wear pants?

Again, I'm no IFB basher, but I just don't get it.
And I would suggest that many of the things you are fighting about and fighting for are taking your time while you are losing ground that really does matter.

MANY in the IFB movement today are like those at the dedication of Zerubbabel's temple.....

While I follow what you are saying, here is the problem.  While you view certain things as things that don't really matter, some feel that the Bible teaches that they do matter.  I'm sure you take a stand on certain issues that others to your left would view as "things that don't really matter".  They matter to you because you have a Biblical conviction.

 

[fishinnut]

[list type=decimal]
[*]Who, in your opinion, is the "best known" graduate of HAC?
[*]Who, in your opinion, is the most "successful" (ministry-wise)?
[*]Who, in your opinion, had the most potential but turned out to be a dud? 
[/list]

I am going to give my opinions on the above questions, but realize that I am far removed from HAC. It has been decades since I was there.

I'll leave the placement (1-2 or 3) to everyone else.....but Buddy Hoffman (mid-70's grad) has a church in the Atlanta area that has 5 satellite campuses & his Snellville church is rather well attended.
http://gfc.tv/snellville/about/

 

[Citadel of Truth]

I would respectfully disagree that there are plans or a model set out in the word of God as far as worship style and methods are concerned.

I can appreciate your opinion; that's why I said that the issue is subjective. I believe there are biblical principles that govern even our methods: who is to lead, when we are to meet, how we finance the work, etc.   

Every church should be purpose driven do t you agree?

I do. And, every church should be "seeker sensitive" as well. I just believe that the purpose that drives us should be God's purpose and not conventional wisdom (another outdated phrase). I believe our sensitivity to those "seeking" should be a sensitivity to the greater need of their souls.   

Later that summer, I attened the Sword Conference in Walkertowm and heard many speakers denounce Purpose Driven as evil and un-Biblical. And they had NO idea what PD even was, but that didn't stop them from defining and condemning it soundly!

I'm with you on that. I am reading a book that was soundly denounced by many mainstream IFBs. After reading it, I wondered if those who came out against it actually read it themselves. It wasn't saying anything close to what they said it was saying.

Ground we might never be able to reclaim?
As to music styles?

I am not opposed to different music styles in the church. Being from the south, my taste is a country-flavored style. What I am opposed to is the entertainment mentality among our singers. My Bible tells me that God resists the proud. That means, if there is pride involved, God is nowhere near that songs or that "worship" time. 

As to using the NKJV or the NASV?

I use the NKJV myself. I personally draw the line at the underlying text. But, yes, that is ground that would be hard to reclaim.

As to, like Raider, our ladies wear pants?

 
I've never put a woman's dress habits as the litmus test for her spirituality. I've known SDOs (skirts and dresses only) that were as wicked as sin. I've also known pants-wearing women who were as godly as I hope to be some day.

But, we have adopted a very casual approach to our church services. I remember the day when everyone wore their "Sunday best" to church. Now, people dress better out of respect for the dead at a funeral than they do for the Lord when they come to His house. Again, ground we've lost. 

I would suggest that many of the things you are fighting about and fighting for are taking your time while you are losing ground that really does matter.

I'm not fighting about it, my brother. I'm just making observation. I've seen the downward spiral of commitment to the Lord. It has kept pace with the direction the churches are going. Is there anything sinful in a pastor sitting on a stool and preaching/teaching with khakis and a polo? Certainly not, but it indicates a direction and a very slippery slope. 

MANY in the IFB movement today are like those at the dedication of Zerubbabel's temple.....

Some are...I wouldn't say many.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I would respectfully disagree that there are plans or a model set out in the word of God as far as worship style and methods are concerned.

I can appreciate your opinion; that's why I said that the issue is subjective. I believe there are biblical principles that govern even our methods: who is to lead, when we are to meet, how we finance the work, etc.   

Every church should be purpose driven do t you agree?

I do. And, every church should be "seeker sensitive" as well. I just believe that the purpose that drives us should be God's purpose and not conventional wisdom (another outdated phrase). I believe our sensitivity to those "seeking" should be a sensitivity to the greater need of their souls.   

Later that summer, I attened the Sword Conference in Walkertowm and heard many speakers denounce Purpose Driven as evil and un-Biblical. And they had NO idea what PD even was, but that didn't stop them from defining and condemning it soundly!

I'm with you on that. I am reading a book that was soundly denounced by many mainstream IFBs. After reading it, I wondered if those who came out against it actually read it themselves. It wasn't saying anything close to what they said it was saying.

Ground we might never be able to reclaim?
As to music styles?

I am not opposed to different music styles in the church. Being from the south, my taste is a country-flavored style. What I am opposed to is the entertainment mentality among our singers. My Bible tells me that God resists the proud. That means, if there is pride involved, God is nowhere near that songs or that "worship" time. 

As to using the NKJV or the NASV?

I use the NKJV myself. I personally draw the line at the underlying text. But, yes, that is ground that would be hard to reclaim.

As to, like Raider, our ladies wear pants?

 
I've never put a woman's dress habits as the litmus test for her spirituality. I've known SDOs (skirts and dresses only) that were as wicked as sin. I've also known pants-wearing women who were as godly as I hope to be some day.

But, we have adopted a very casual approach to our church services. I remember the day when everyone wore their "Sunday best" to church. Now, people dress better out of respect for the dead at a funeral than they do for the Lord when they come to His house. Again, ground we've lost. 

I would suggest that many of the things you are fighting about and fighting for are taking your time while you are losing ground that really does matter.

I'm not fighting about it, my brother. I'm just making observation. I've seen the downward spiral of commitment to the Lord. It has kept pace with the direction the churches are going. Is there anything sinful in a pastor sitting on a stool and preaching/teaching with khakis and a polo? Certainly not, but it indicates a direction and a very slippery slope. 

MANY in the IFB movement today are like those at the dedication of Zerubbabel's temple.....

Some are...I wouldn't say many.

I have no argument with your fair, rational and reasonable position(s). 

 

[rsc2a]

A moot point if you stop thinking about the church as a service or building and start thinking about it as a called out group of believers.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

A moot point if you stop thinking about the church as a service or building and start thinking about it as a called out group of believers.

One man's building is another man's table.....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I would respectfully disagree that there are plans or a model set out in the word of God as far as worship style and methods are concerned. Seeker sensitive, and purpose driven are catch phrases and stereotypes put out at a Sword Conference by men who have no actual idea what they really mean...in many cases. Plus they are also dated phrases, except in Sword Conferences. 

Some years ago, I attended a Rick Warren Purpose Driven conference in Lynchburg. It was, IMO an excellent resource. I didn't change our church and wear Hawaii themed shirts, but learned many principles to help our ministry. Every church should be purpose driven do t you agree?
Later that summer, I attened the Sword Conference in Walkertowm and heard many speakers denounce Purpose Driven as evil and un-Biblical. And they had NO idea what PD even was, but that didn't stop them from defining and condemning it soundly!

Ground we might never be able to reclaim?
As to music styles?
As to using the NKJV or the NASV?
As to, like Raider, our ladies wear pants?

Again, I'm no IFB basher, but I just don't get it.
And I would suggest that many of the things you are fighting about and fighting for are taking your time while you are losing ground that really does matter.

MANY in the IFB movement today are like those at the dedication of Zerubbabel's temple.....

While I follow what you are saying, here is the problem.  While you view certain things as things that don't really matter, some feel that the Bible teaches that they do matter.  I'm sure you take a stand on certain issues that others to your left would view as "things that don't really matter".  They matter to you because you have a Biblical conviction.

Again, with due deference, many of your/their/our Biblical convictions' are long on conviction and way short on bible....according to those who don't believe them.

I think that is one reason we, the evangelical church, is in decline...we need to distinguish between Biblical and philosophical issues.