Why does it seem the Calvinist teachers are always proud?

[The Rogue Tomato]

They can boast in the fact that God's choice involved them. Their system doesn't remove boasting.

Well, I didn't mean to say Calvinists would never boast, only that the soteriology doesn't allow for it.  Saying I can boast because God chose me is foolish, because I can give no reason why he chose me over someone else.  It's entirely God-centered (monergism).  Whatever his reason for choosing me, he hasn't hipped me to that, dude.  (To coin a Pee-Wee phrase).

In contrast, the free-will believer can say, at the very least, "I may not have had anything to offer God to choose me, but at least I made the right choice".  There's an element of I-gism in there, like it or not. 

 

[christundivided]

They can boast in the fact that God's choice involved them. Their system doesn't remove boasting.

Well, I didn't mean to say Calvinists would never boast, only that the soteriology doesn't allow for it.  Saying I can boast because God chose me is foolish, because I can give no reason why he chose me over someone else.  It's entirely God-centered (monergism).  Whatever his reason for choosing me, he hasn't hipped me to that, dude.  (To coin a Pee-Wee phrase).

In contrast, the free-will believer can say, at the very least, "I may not have had anything to offer God to choose me, but at least I made the right choice".  There's an element of I-gism in there, like it or not.

Just because you can't "say" for certain why God's choice involved you.... does not change the fact the system logically implies reason for that choice over another. This is one reason, where and why I say that Calvinism is childish.

Answer a couple questions for me....

Is God absent reason?

Are the elect special?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Just because you can't "say" for certain why God's choice involved you.... does not change the fact the system logically implies reason for that choice over another. This is one reason, where and why I say that Calvinism is childish.

Personally, I find the logic flawed.  Predestination (I don't know what Calvin says, so I'll use that term) really isn't a matter of choice between one person and another.  God says he made out of the same lump of clay some people for glory and others for destruction.  So to answer your question below, if there's something special about the elect, it's because God made them that way.  They have nothing of their own about which to boast. 

As for God being absent reason, no, but his reason is above our understanding.  If you're specifically asking if God has a reason for making some people for glory and others for destruction, it explains that right in Romans.  But that doesn't give anyone a reason to boast, because we had nothing to do with it. 

Answer a couple questions for me....

Is God absent reason?

Are the elect special?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Are the elect special?

I'm not a Calvinist, but the answer to this question is a categorical and emphatic "YES"!

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.

 

[FSSL]

Are you being intentionally deceptive twisting my argument into one that I never made, to destroy it? Where did I say that God chose them based on their goodness?

I am not intentionally twisting your argument. I am having trouble understanding your view of foreknowledge.

The argument was simply that God's foreknowledge allowed Him to know who would choose to receive Him making those the elect.

This statement appears to contradict the one above. Isn't the "choice to receive Him" something good?

The "foreknowledge" group always uses the argument that God looks down the tunnel of time and sees a positive quality in those he chooses.

If the "choice to receive Him" is not "good," please clarify... I have never heard this unique position before.

 

[christundivided]

Are the elect special?

I'm not a Calvinist, but the answer to this question is a categorical and emphatic "YES"!

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.

First, let me say I wasn't trying to imply they weren't.

Second, this is my point. The "uniqueness" of the elect demands superior value. In this, Calvinism refuse to address a proper view of "boasting" ie "self worth".

The Scriptures, specifically "Romans" talks extensively of boasting. Yet, the Calvinist attempt  to remove themselves from trespassing the demands of Scripture by saying they "don't know why" they have been chosen. Yet, this does not remove the innate value in the elect.

 

[christundivided]

The argument was simply that God's foreknowledge allowed Him to know who would choose to receive Him making those the elect.

You make "foreknowledge" to be nothing more than an action of God's intellect.

Foreknowledge does not exist without God's diving action to bring about the future. C.S. Lewis isn't the answer to how God knows the future.

God knows the future in the fact that He creates the future.

Let me give you a good example...... many of you can probably sympathize with.

My wife is very good at foreknowing my future. She knows exactly when, where and how, I am going do certain things "for her". She's usually one hundred percent accurate in her predictions.

I'll give 3 guess why she's so talent in foreknowing my future.......

 

[FSSL]

Second, this is my point. The "uniqueness" of the elect demands superior value. In this, Calvinism refuse to address a proper view of "boasting" ie "self worth".

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. Colossians 3:12-13

The fact that God chose us (depraved sinners), logically demands that we be humble. Regeneration and receiving salvific faith was not our doing.

 

[christundivided]

Personally, I find the logic flawed.  Predestination (I don't know what Calvin says, so I'll use that term) really isn't a matter of choice between one person and another.  God says he made out of the same lump of clay some people for glory and others for destruction.  So to answer your question below, if there's something special about the elect, it's because God made them that way.  They have nothing of their own about which to boast. 

First, They can boast in their innate/intrinsic value to God. At least the system establishes such.

Second, don't get caught up in trying to neatly separate certain aspects of the teaching in to little cardboard houses that stand all alone..... distinct with one another. Foreknowledge and predestination are inseparable.

 

[FSSL]

You make "foreknowledge" to be nothing more than an action of God's intellect.

No. "Foreknowledge" has an inherent Hebraic meaning. "To know" infers that there is a relationship being established. God ordained a special relationship. Rogue Tomatoes, above, mentioned this. <- I thought he did.

 

[christundivided]

Second, this is my point. The "uniqueness" of the elect demands superior value. In this, Calvinism refuse to address a proper view of "boasting" ie "self worth".

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. Colossians 3:12-13

The fact that God chose us (depraved sinners), logically demands that we be humble. Regeneration and receiving salvific faith was not our doing.

You're right in that boasting is excluded. Yet, that is not how Calvinism functions. You may see that way, but I can't help but notice the failure of the system.

Faith gets "mixed". I'm sure you know where in the Scriptures that is spoken of....

 

[christundivided]

You make "foreknowledge" to be nothing more than an action of God's intellect.

No. "Foreknowledge" has an inherent Hebraic meaning. "To know" infers that there is a relationship being established. God ordained a special relationship. Rogue Tomatoes, above, mentioned this.

Did you notice the last part of your sentence....

there is a relationship being established

Foreknowledge isn't absent action. Divine action. Its more than just being aware of what will happen.

 

[FSSL]

Faith gets "mixed". I'm sure you know where in the Scriptures that is spoken of....

Actually... I have grown up with the NIV, so I had to search this

I understand Hebrews 4:2 to speak of those who had no God-given faith. Faith is entirely a gift from God.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You make "foreknowledge" to be nothing more than an action of God's intellect.

No. "Foreknowledge" has an inherent Hebraic meaning. "To know" infers that there is a relationship being established. God ordained a special relationship. Rogue Tomatoes, above, mentioned this. <- I thought he did.

Rogue Tomato

I did mention it, just not in those words.  I said intimate knowledge, which in my mind is the same thing as a special relationship.  Also, I was referring to the Greek, not Hebrew, although the Hebrew has the same kind of word, like when Adam knew his wife.

NO, I am not implying that foreknowledge is a physical, sexual relationship.  I shouldn't have to say that, but you never know around here. 

 

[FSSL]

You make "foreknowledge" to be nothing more than an action of God's intellect.

No. "Foreknowledge" has an inherent Hebraic meaning. "To know" infers that there is a relationship being established. God ordained a special relationship. Rogue Tomatoes, above, mentioned this.

Did you notice the last part of your sentence....

there is a relationship being established

Foreknowledge isn't absent action. Divine action. Its more than just being aware of what will happen.

Yes. I agree with that. In fact, "being aware" is pretty much a very small part of the meaning of "foreknowledge." The way the "foreknowledge" crowd presents "foreknowledge" is that God is learning something from the future that He didn't already know.

"Foreknowledge" is determinitive.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Faith gets "mixed". I'm sure you know where in the Scriptures that is spoken of....

Actually... I have grown up with the NIV, so I had to search this

I understand Hebrews 4:2 to speak of those who had no God-given faith. Faith is entirely a gift from God.

Yes. 

Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake...

 

[christundivided]

Faith gets "mixed". I'm sure you know where in the Scriptures that is spoken of....

Actually... I have grown up with the NIV, so I had to search this

I understand Hebrews 4:2 to speak of those who had no God-given faith. Faith is entirely a gift from God.

Humm... pretty much everything is a gift from God. James spoke of every perfect gift comes from above.

Go a little further in explaining what you mean by faith is entirely a gift from God. If you're implying, like a good Calvinist, that God gives the elect the faith to accept salvation..... and yet denies such to the damned.... then that is where we will have to disagree

Hebrews 4:2 is about the Gospel being mixed with something.... called faith. In fact, that mixing takes place within a individual.

 

[christundivided]

Faith gets "mixed". I'm sure you know where in the Scriptures that is spoken of....

Actually... I have grown up with the NIV, so I had to search this

I understand Hebrews 4:2 to speak of those who had no God-given faith. Faith is entirely a gift from God.

Yes. 

Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake...

It should really read "us" instead of "you". A cooperative election is in picture. Not a choice in an individual.

added.... the RV and others gets it right when it talks of "in the behalf of Christ." It is impossible to properly understand election without understanding God's choice in His Son.

 

[rsc2a]

If Calvinists are arrogant because of election, what about those who hope for universal reconciliation and are still deterministic (i.e. "Calvinist")? Those kind of folks don't squirm too much about the "L".

 

[Bob H]

Are the elect special?

I'm not a Calvinist, but the answer to this question is a categorical and emphatic "YES"!

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.

You're peculiar all right