Why is requiring physical circumcision for salvation heresy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter PR6771
  • Start date Start date

Modern Jewish believers, if physically uncircumcised, are...

  • Are saved and not sinning

    Votes: 4 66.7%
  • Are saved but sinning

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • Are not saved and sinning

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • Are not saved but not sinning either (for Hitler and neo-Nazis)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    6
  • Poll closed .
T-bone:
Thank you for clarifying. No Paul didn't think the worthless he just believed that they have fulfilled their purpose. It makes it clear of the purpose of the law and the OT system..just like the writer of Hebrews taught over & over again.

So- have the mandates given to Adam and Noah been completely fulfilled as well? Or just the Abrahamic covenant and Mosaic law?
 
T-bone:
Thank you for clarifying. No Paul didn't think the worthless he just believed that they have fulfilled their purpose. It makes it clear of the purpose of the law and the OT system..just like the writer of Hebrews taught over & over again.

After thinking about this, this doesn't seem to make sense either. If Mosaic law has fulfilled its purpose, why do so many Christians love posting the Ten Commandments and revile the public schools for removing them? They are just as much a part of Mosaic law as the other hundreds of Torah commandments. If anything, the public schools got it right- those laws have fulfilled their purpose and should not govern a person's life.
 
And why all the commandments given in the New Testament? What is their purpose?
 
PR6771 said:
Thank you for clarifying. No Paul didn't think the worthless he just believed that they have fulfilled their purpose. It makes it clear of the purpose of the law and the OT system..just like the writer of Hebrews taught over & over again.

After thinking about this, this doesn't seem to make sense either. If Mosaic law has fulfilled its purpose, why do so many Christians love posting the Ten Commandments and revile the public schools for removing them? They are just as much a part of Mosaic law as the other hundreds of Torah commandments. If anything, the public schools got it right- those laws have fulfilled their purpose and should not govern a person's life.

When it comes to why a "Christian" does something..... You'll get answers all over the map. Some do things in an attempt to find value or worth in their accomplishments. Others do things simply because they know no better.... or refuse to believe anything different than what they have been taught by people they trust.

While I don't agree with the great desire to preserve the 10 commandments signs all over the country.... (it certainly didn't help Israel maintain a moral country)... There is a difference between commandments, laws and traditions that have innate moral value..... and covenants, laws, commandments, and traditions that are nothing more than allusions to Messiah and His Divine work.

I wholeheartedly believe that the law is the law is the law...... and there really is no such thing as distinctions such as moral, ceremonial, and civil when it comes to an overall view of law. It is all "one" law. The law isn't "divide". However, no one is going to tell you that it isn't immoral for people not to murder one another. Even nations that never received the "law of God" judge murders. This is exactly what Paul is talking about when he references the Gentiles doing "things contained within the law".... being a "law unto themselves". Just because these "laws" have innate and intrinsic moral character, doesn't mean such things haven't been perfected in the pleasure of knowing Messiah.

No matter what is said or done in the "public"..... in general, mankind refuses to accept Messiah. As fallen and deprived people, the masses, must be governed by laws to control their depravity and its affects on civil society. This was the ultimate purpose of the law of Moses. It was to control and limit the depravity and condition of Israel till God will bring about the birth of His Son to absolutely free mankind from sin.
 
PR6771 said:
And why all the commandments given in the New Testament? What is their purpose?

Many of the commandments give by Christ during The Advent..... were given to convict national Israel of their immorality. At ever turn they claimed adherence to the teachings of the law... Yet, they absolutely refused to deal with the hardness and depravity of their own hearts. There has never been a law that could make man, from the heart, serve God. Even if a man could adequately serve God through the outward adherence to any demand of any law, there is always the question of "motive" or "intent". Its just not the keeping of any law that is important. Its also the questions of "why" and "for what reason". God isn't impressed with the worthless desires of man to prove himself.
 
Why is requiring sanity to post on the FFF not a mandate?
 
christundivided said:
PR6771 said:
And why all the commandments given in the New Testament? What is their purpose?

Many of the commandments give by Christ during The Advent..... were given to convict national Israel of their immorality. At ever turn they claimed they adhere to the teachings of the law... Yet, they absolutely refused to deal the hardness and depravity of their own hearts. There has never been a law that could make man, from the heart, serve God. Even if a man could adequately serve God through the outward adherence to any demand of any law, there is always the question of "motive" or "intent". Its just not the keeping of any law that is important. Its also the questions of "why" and "for what reason". God isn't impressed with the worthless desires of man to prove himself.

And the commandments given by Paul? What is their purpose?
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Why is requiring sanity to post on the FFF not a mandate?

For the same reason that people are allowed to post childish insults without adding anything worthwhile to a discussion.
 
PR6771 said:
christundivided said:
PR6771 said:
And why all the commandments given in the New Testament? What is their purpose?

Many of the commandments give by Christ during The Advent..... were given to convict national Israel of their immorality. At ever turn they claimed they adhere to the teachings of the law... Yet, they absolutely refused to deal the hardness and depravity of their own hearts. There has never been a law that could make man, from the heart, serve God. Even if a man could adequately serve God through the outward adherence to any demand of any law, there is always the question of "motive" or "intent". Its just not the keeping of any law that is important. Its also the questions of "why" and "for what reason". God isn't impressed with the worthless desires of man to prove himself.

And the commandments given by Paul? What is their purpose?

What commandments? Could you give an example.

Paul summed up the issue very nicely in

2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
 
christundivided:
What commandments?

Romans 12:6-21; 13:1-14; 15:1-7; 16:17-19
1 Corinthians 4:16; 5:1-13; 6:4-8,13-20; 7:1-17,39-40; 8:12; 9:27; 10:6-22,31-33; 11:1-16,27-34; 13:4-13; 14:27-40; 15:34,58; 16:1-4,1-316
2 Corinthians 2:9-11; 5:10; 6:1-10,14-18; 7:1; 8:11-15; 12:19-21; 13:11

That's just Romans and Corinthians. Do you want more?
 
christundivided:
2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

To me, it seems this verse is commanding Christians to depart from iniquity. How is that not a commandment?
 
PR6771 said:
2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

To me, it seems this verse is commanding Christians to depart from iniquity. How is that not a commandment?

A broad commandment without details. Don't think that might be purposeful?

Do you think your new heart in Christ..... knows when you've done wrong?
 
christundivided said:
PR6771 said:
2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

To me, it seems this verse is commanding Christians to depart from iniquity. How is that not a commandment?

A broad commandment without details. Don't think that might be purposeful?

Do you think your new heart in Christ..... knows when you've done wrong?

And what of the detailed commandments from Romans and 1 Corinthians that I posted?

Of course I believe it's purposeful- even as a born again Christian, the Holy Spirit convicts me based on where I am in conflict with His Word. He doesn't provide further insight into righteousness or wickedness than is found in God's Word. If I claim something you do is wrong because the "Holy Spirit" told me, but I have no Scripture to back it up, you would be right to doubt me.

The problem I have is those of you who believe the commandments given to Adam and Noah have completed their purpose. I see no Scriptural support for those view points. And just because something is an allegory does not mean it should no longer be obeyed when God clearly said to obey it forever. You people provide no logical, Scriptural basis for why those covenants are disannulled.  Abraham and Moses, I'll concede- but the covenants given to Adam and Noah are clearly not disannulled if you go by Scripture alone.
 
PR6771 said:
What commandments?

Romans 12:6-21; 13:1-14; 15:1-7; 16:17-19
1 Corinthians 4:16; 5:1-13; 6:4-8,13-20; 7:1-17,39-40; 8:12; 9:27; 10:6-22,31-33; 11:1-16,27-34; 13:4-13; 14:27-40; 15:34,58; 16:1-4,1-316
2 Corinthians 2:9-11; 5:10; 6:1-10,14-18; 7:1; 8:11-15; 12:19-21; 13:11

That's just Romans and Corinthians. Do you want more?

Here they are again, just in case you missed them because they posted on the end of page five.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Why is requiring sanity to post on the FFF not a mandate?

I didn't mean this to be a personal indictment against PR6771, just a little self depreciation....forum wise. I just didn't see this turning into a serious discussion.
I've read Galatians 5.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
Why is requiring sanity to post on the FFF not a mandate?

I didn't mean this to be a personal indictment against PR6771, just a little self depreciation....forum wise. I just didn't see this turning into a serious discussion.
I've read Galatians 5.

So then what is your opinion of the purpose of New Testament commandments? They're obviously not for salvation, but we do have a duty to follow them, right? I don't see why the same reasoning doesn't apply to the Adamic and Noahic covenants. I can see why Gentiles have no obligation to obey the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants/law. I just don't see how Jews are free from their obligations. Countless times, Moses, David, and others recorded that God says the laws He ordained are everlasting. Is it because Christ Himself is everlasting and so is fulfilling the everlasting law in their place eternally? That just seems to go against how the Mosaic law presents itself...
 
Ephesians 2: 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—

remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one  and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall


We are all one now. Equal in Christ. Self mutilation is not even a work but likely a sin, if anything

 
PR6771 said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
Why is requiring sanity to post on the FFF not a mandate?

I didn't mean this to be a personal indictment against PR6771, just a little self depreciation....forum wise. I just didn't see this turning into a serious discussion.
I've read Galatians 5.

So then what is your opinion of the purpose of New Testament commandments? They're obviously not for salvation, but we do have a duty to follow them, right? I don't see why the same reasoning doesn't apply to the Adamic and Noahic covenants. I can see why Gentiles have no obligation to obey the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants/law. I just don't see how Jews are free from their obligations. Countless times, Moses, David, and others recorded that God says the laws He ordained are everlasting. Is it because Christ Himself is everlasting and so is fulfilling the everlasting law in their place eternally? That just seems to go against how the Mosaic law presents itself...
Matthew 5:17-20“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

We cannot fulfill all the commandments in the NT so Christ shed his blood to fulfill these Commandments for us.
So the commandments weren't abolished, we are still to strive for this perfection yet know the sacrifice for breaking them has been sufficed. <-is that a word?
 
Biker:
Matthew 5:17-20“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

We cannot fulfill all the commandments in the NT so Christ shed his blood to fulfill these Commandments for us.
So the commandments weren't abolished, we are still to strive for this perfection yet know the sacrifice for breaking them has been sufficed. <-is that a word?

Seems like a lot of people on here think striving for perfection is legalism though. But striving for perfection is clearly something we are encouraged to do multiple times in the New Testament, and I see nothing wrong with it. It most definitely will not lead to salvation, since we all fall short, but nonetheless has merit to it.

Also, if He clearly says He did not come to abolish/destroy the law then shouldn't the Jews still seek to follow His commands as given by Moses? As long as they do it with the understanding that they will not gain salvation from it?
 
Seems like a lot of people on here think striving for perfection is legalism though. But striving for perfection is clearly something we are encouraged to do multiple times in the New Testament, and I see nothing wrong with it. It most definitely will not lead to salvation, since we all fall short, but nonetheless has merit to it.
Lesson here. Due to past childhoods, PTSD can surface, mostly for the IFBxers/IFB. They are very emotional. Most here were raised in church and often well into adulthood remained members in strict IFB churches. Continuing the cycle of abuse. They are the first to point a finger with a false accusation or it's so exaggerated it resembles squat of what you said or the circumstances...while they've been involved in much more of the EXACT SAME STUFF on a routine basis for decades under the name of religion.They even follow each other to other websites to cause drama.
Most of the accusations here are false, hardly any are ever true. The more people involved, the more fabricated the lie. They see sex, drunkennness, and other  bad stuff where it doesn't exist, even inventing it. Never defend yourself when it the drama persists.. it's to your benefit later for people to believe ill about you. It separates the sheep and wolves.
Freebirds are the most relaxed though they can provoke the IFBxers sometimes. They generally ignore Calvinists and other Freebirds don't generally get them riled up. probably have lives outside of the forum and facebook. Calvinists tend to feel they are somehow superior or special, and are often childishly sarcastic which is odd (it's the humor of the gay men in San Francisco). But they don't tend to lie, and you won't ever cut and paste a post from decades long ago to show their hypocricy. . They have set beliefs and stick with it. I am closest to Freebird but also very close to a Calvinist. Agree with much of the IFBxers, if just partially but not generally for their reasons. This board is heavily handed censored & moderated compared to the other Boards. Whereas the other FFFs Boards often ran wild...total opposite. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Nothing's perfect. Just don't respond behind the scenes.

Also, if He clearly says He did not come to abolish/destroy the law then shouldn't the Jews still seek to follow His commands as given by Moses? As long as they do it with the understanding that they will not gain salvation from it?
Remember Jesus says he did not come to abolish the law but TO FULFILL IT through his blood sacrifice. You can't drop the second part. It's the verse I quoted already a post or two above.  So the law requirement for Salvation is fulfilled for those who belong to him. Once saved always saved.
In Christ, everyone is equal. There is no additional burdens/laws placed on any particular race, including Jews. Everyone is equal in Christ Jesus, part of Gods household.

Gal 3:18 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus

Regarding "The Law of Moses, Ceremonial laws are generally done away with. The rule of thumb is we live in the new covenant governed by Love in which all other commandments hinge upon this greatest commandment.You cannot be a Christian without it.  A good rule of thumb is If whatever commandment you are concerned over is re-iterated in the New Covenant, then we are still expected to abide by it today. Considering it is for us. The Moral Laws found in the 10 Commandments, written with Gods own finger, including honoring the Sabbath day, are still in effect in my opinion.  It hinges on being fully convinced in your own mind, so whatever you choose, no biggie. Nice to meet you, by the way  8)

Matthew 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”



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