Withholding the gospel ...

[BandGuy]

Do you spend any time coming up with these stupid questions, or do they just pop into your head?

I grew up and spend most of my time around people who are far from a reformed faith. If I were to be having a conversation with a pastor of a reformed Church, or friend who was from the reformed tradition, I would ask such questions regarding children, gospel outreach, or their viewpoint toward the unsaved community.

I believe all of mankind can respond to the gospel in they so desired.

Calvinists agree with you.  Now, go and find all the lost heathens in the Bible and in the world today who were waiting with baited breath to follow Christ before God changed their desires.  Start with Romans 3 or even the conversion of Saul on the road to Damascus to persecute Christians.

But, if I turned to accept a doctrine where I acknowledge not all of mankind is able to respond ... I wonder about that greatly. I look at my boss, my neighbor, the husband of a dear lady at Church who won't accept Christ ... I say "are they non-elect?" ... "Should we bother?"

So ... is is okay to withhold the gospel? To not reach souls? Is this okay as a reformed believer?

About 10 years ago I knew a man who said a whole community was probably non-elect and reaching them was a waste of time. That seemed tragic from my viewpoint. But, from a reformed viewpoint ....

If God knows who will accept and who will reject Him before they are born, is it okay to withhold the Gospel?  To not reach souls?  Is this okay for an Arminian believer?

About 10 years ago, I knew a man who said that God foreknew (not necessarily predestined) all who would and would not be saved and still created all those sinners who would rot in Hell forever so He could prove what a gentleman He was and how a loving Father should always respect free will regardless of the consequences.  That seemed tragic from my viewpoint.  But, from an Arminian viewpoint...

 

[BandGuy]

I believe all of mankind can respond to the gospel in they so desired.

That's just the problem, men don't seek after God, "there are non righteous"  "nobody seeks after God" we have turned to our own way", it takes God to change the heart if man to cry out to God! Nobody does it on their own.

Jesus knocks at each and every heart door. Mankind can open the door up and let him in, or keep the door closed. We are saved by grace (Jesus knocking) through faith (opening the door) ...

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in and eat with you, and you will eat with me.
Revelation 3:20

That verse was written to believers in Revalation, not unbelievers!

Yes, but the application to sinners is wide open.

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" Let the one who hears this say, "Come!" Let whoever is thirsty come; whoever wishes may have the water of life as a free gift.
Revelation 22:17

Who is the bride?  Do you know who the bride of Christ is?

 

[BandGuy]

Do you ever withhold the gospel from anyone because you assume they are non-elect?

Did William Carey, CH Spurgeon, John Newton, and all the scores of Calvinists throughout Christian history who were pioneers in missions and evangelism?  Please stop with the tired old idiotic and dishonest attacks.  If you are really that stupid and ignorant about Calvinism and Calvinists, please go educate yourself before you post any further.  Go and actually read about Bonhoffer.  Go read about Carey.  Go read the historic Calvinist creeds and stop making a fool out of yourself.

books, creeds and historical accounts are no doubt very useful and could shed a lot of light on what calvinists are supposed to believe...... but in the real world nothing makes an impression .... (whether positive or negative)... or solidifies opinions in the minds of observers quite as strongly as a living representative of a particular faith or sect.... acting in a way he claims his faith dictates.............  ..... but what you said makes a lot of sense..... i am wondering if more modern day calvinists would read bohoffer, spurgeon, carey and the creeds if they too could stop making fools out of themselves as often as some of them do....... ....... at the very least maybe they could avoid stirring up so much of the hatred against calvinism that you and others here say is undeserved...... ......

Or...Arminians could go and educate themselves before they start braying like donkeys and attacking that which they do not understand.  Sound good?  I know that about 15 years ago, I stopped braying like a donkey long enough to actually read what Calvinists believe and compare it to the Bible and change my mind.

 

[BandGuy]

Do you ever withhold the gospel from anyone because you assume they are non-elect?

Did William Carey, CH Spurgeon, John Newton, and all the scores of Calvinists throughout Christian history who were pioneers in missions and evangelism?  Please stop with the tired old idiotic and dishonest attacks.  If you are really that stupid and ignorant about Calvinism and Calvinists, please go educate yourself before you post any further.  Go and actually read about Bonhoffer.  Go read about Carey.  Go read the historic Calvinist creeds and stop making a fool out of yourself.

books, creeds and historical accounts are no doubt very useful and could shed a lot of light on what calvinists are supposed to believe...... but in the real world nothing makes an impression .... (whether positive or negative)... or solidifies opinions in the minds of observers quite as strongly as a living representative of a particular faith or sect.... acting in a way he claims his faith dictates.............  ..... but what you said makes a lot of sense..... i am wondering if more modern day calvinists would read bohoffer, spurgeon, carey and the creeds if they too could stop making fools out of themselves as often as some of them do....... ....... at the very least maybe they could avoid stirring up so much of the hatred against calvinism that you and others here say is undeserved...... ......

Or...Arminians could go and educate themselves before they start braying like donkeys and attacking that which that do not understand.  Sound good?  I know that about 15 years ago, I stopped braying like a donkey long enough to actually read what Calvinists believe and compare it to the Bible and change my mind.

so why are you braying like one now?........ (seriously... you are going off like someone who touched a hot stove)..... and why is every christian who is not a calvinist always an "arminian" in the mind of the "reformed" believers?..... do all calvinists see only in black and white?..... is that the secret what makes them think the way they do?........ what would i find out from the creeds and historical documents that living representatives of calvinism today are not teaching or exemplifying with their lives?.......

If you don't want to know what Calvinists believe, that's on you.  But, don't expect me to believe that when people ask me such utterly ridiculous, inane questions about whether or not Calvinists withhold the Gospel because those who are non-elect will never get saved is asking a serious, honest question.  When I see such stupidity, I give it its due respect and respond appropriately.  I don't take it seriously.  Neither should we.  People who ask such idiotic questions really deserve nothing more than ridicule and an admonition to grow up and educate themselves.

 

[BandGuy]

Do you ever withhold the gospel from anyone because you assume they are non-elect?

Did William Carey, CH Spurgeon, John Newton, and all the scores of Calvinists throughout Christian history who were pioneers in missions and evangelism?  Please stop with the tired old idiotic and dishonest attacks.  If you are really that stupid and ignorant about Calvinism and Calvinists, please go educate yourself before you post any further.  Go and actually read about Bonhoffer.  Go read about Carey.  Go read the historic Calvinist creeds and stop making a fool out of yourself.

This is a discussion forum. To someone unfamiliar with Calvinistic doctrine this is a valid question.
When I have questions it's generally easier to get a response by asking on a dedicated forum for theological questions then to try to do independent research.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense in the context of this discussion.  Tim is not some newbie on this forum who has never met a Calvinist before or heard what they believe.  He is a flaming troll who is stoking the fires and making an idiot out of himself.

 

[subllibrm]

Do you ever withhold the gospel from anyone because you assume they are non-elect?

one of the first calvinists i ever met ... a youth pastor at a local church.... told me he didn;t believe i was one of the elect... and thought most likely i couldn;t be saved and never would be..... due to suffering from schizophrenia and sometimes hearing voices.... he believed most cases of mental illness and all cases of hearing voices were evidence of demon possession...... 

Jesus "saved" people from demon possession (not suggesting you are or were) and there is no reason to think He has stopped. The man in question wasn't wrong about you because he was a calvinist. He was wrong because he is a moron.

 

[subllibrm]

Do you ever withhold the gospel from anyone because you assume they are non-elect?

Did William Carey, CH Spurgeon, John Newton, and all the scores of Calvinists throughout Christian history who were pioneers in missions and evangelism?  Please stop with the tired old idiotic and dishonest attacks.  If you are really that stupid and ignorant about Calvinism and Calvinists, please go educate yourself before you post any further.  Go and actually read about Bonhoffer.  Go read about Carey.  Go read the historic Calvinist creeds and stop making a fool out of yourself.

This is a discussion forum. To someone unfamiliar with Calvinistic doctrine this is a valid question.
When I have questions it's generally easier to get a response by asking on a dedicated forum for theological questions then to try to do independent research.

But the questions aren't honest inquiries, they are thinly veiled attacks based on wrongly held notions.

 

[christundivided]

Do you ever withhold the gospel from anyone because you assume they are non-elect?

Did William Carey, CH Spurgeon, John Newton, and all the scores of Calvinists throughout Christian history who were pioneers in missions and evangelism?  Please stop with the tired old idiotic and dishonest attacks.  If you are really that stupid and ignorant about Calvinism and Calvinists, please go educate yourself before you post any further.  Go and actually read about Bonhoffer.  Go read about Carey.  Go read the historic Calvinist creeds and stop making a fool out of yourself.

This is a discussion forum. To someone unfamiliar with Calvinistic doctrine this is a valid question.
When I have questions it's generally easier to get a response by asking on a dedicated forum for theological questions then to try to do independent research.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense in the context of this discussion.  Tim is not some newbie on this forum who has never met a Calvinist before or heard what they believe.  He is a flaming troll who is stoking the fires and making an idiot out of himself.

I've been around this forum for a long time. There are only two people here that are competent to defend Calvinism. Only two. I don't say that to disparage anyone else... but its the truth. Those two are FSSL and Ransom. I've made Ransom mad enough that he's not going to engage the subject with me at all. He has no answer for various aspects we've discussed in the past. He knows Calvinism is lacking in 3 key areas. These are the order of events in salvation, Foreknowledge, and the power of the Gospel.

 

[BandGuy]

I've likewise been around this forum a long time (probably not as long as you).  I also know that you are basically a bitter Arminian heretic who loves to hurl insults, burn strawmen, and asks dishonest, irrelevant questions to start controversy while dismissing every answer you get and trying to make yourself look like you're intelligent.  What I don't know quite yet is whether or not you're doing this on purpose just to get your jollies or if you're really just that stupid.  Would you help me out with that and just let us know?  If you really are that stupid, maybe there's hope for you.  If you're just a troll who cares nothing about honest conversation, I would be better off just putting you on ignore.  Which is it?

 

[christundivided]

I've likewise been around this forum a long time (probably not as long as you).  I also know that you are basically a bitter Arminian heretic who loves to hurl insults, burn strawmen, and asks dishonest, irrelevant questions to start controversy while dismissing every answer you get and trying to make yourself look like you're intelligent.  What I don't know quite yet is whether or not you're doing this on purpose just to get your jollies or if you're really just that stupid.  Would you help me out with that and just let us know?  If you really are that stupid, maybe there's hope for you.  If you're just a troll who cares nothing about honest conversation, I would be better off just putting you on ignore.  Which is it?

I haven't hurled one insult your way. You have nothing to complain about.

I'm not a bitter Arminian heretic. ( I see you love throwing insults yourself).... I think the Arminian view point is lacking in many areas. That's why many people end up hating me. I don't conform to the little box everyone plays in. I actually love to explain... why I believe... what I believe.... without feeling the need to appeal to any existing dogma.

Do you generally believe Arminians to be heretics? I don't generally classify Calvinist as heretic. I do come close with Hyper-Calvinist....

 

[Ransom]

've made Ransom mad enough that he's not going to engage the subject with me at all. He has no answer for various aspects we've discussed in the past. He knows Calvinism is lacking in 3 key areas.

No, I've decided to stop engaging you, not because I can't answer your points, but because you're a jerk.

Reasoning with jerks is a waste of time and beer.

 

[christundivided]

've made Ransom mad enough that he's not going to engage the subject with me at all. He has no answer for various aspects we've discussed in the past. He knows Calvinism is lacking in 3 key areas.

No, I've decided to stop engaging you, not because I can't answer your points, but because you're a jerk.

Reasoning with jerks is a waste of time and beer.

This coming from the biggest jerk the FFF forum has ever known.....

Come on Ransom.... we can be jerks to one another and still debate. I'm not the one that picked up his toys and went running home to momma crying "jerk". I know you're a grown man. It really doesn't bother you whatsoever. You're just making an excuse.

 

[BandGuy]

I've likewise been around this forum a long time (probably not as long as you).  I also know that you are basically a bitter Arminian heretic who loves to hurl insults, burn strawmen, and asks dishonest, irrelevant questions to start controversy while dismissing every answer you get and trying to make yourself look like you're intelligent.  What I don't know quite yet is whether or not you're doing this on purpose just to get your jollies or if you're really just that stupid.  Would you help me out with that and just let us know?  If you really are that stupid, maybe there's hope for you.  If you're just a troll who cares nothing about honest conversation, I would be better off just putting you on ignore.  Which is it?

I haven't hurled one insult your way. You have nothing to complain about.

I'm not a bitter Arminian heretic. ( I see you love throwing insults yourself).... I think the Arminian view point is lacking in many areas. That's why many people end up hating me. I don't conform to the little box everyone plays in. I actually love to explain... why I believe... what I believe.... without feeling the need to appeal to any existing dogma.

Do you generally believe Arminians to be heretics? I don't generally classify Calvinist as heretic. I do come close with Hyper-Calvinist....

Troll it is.  Have a great life and good bye.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Do you ever withhold the gospel from anyone because you assume they are non-elect?

Did William Carey, CH Spurgeon, John Newton, and all the scores of Calvinists throughout Christian history who were pioneers in missions and evangelism?  Please stop with the tired old idiotic and dishonest attacks.  If you are really that stupid and ignorant about Calvinism and Calvinists, please go educate yourself before you post any further.  Go and actually read about Bonhoffer.  Go read about Carey.  Go read the historic Calvinist creeds and stop making a fool out of yourself.

Speaking of William Carey he was one of the First Missionaries  of the Calvinist "Particular Baptist Society for Propagating the Gospel among the Heathen".

One of the Founders Andrew Fuller in 1786 wrote this short tract as he struggled with Hyper-Calvinism, Socinianism and Sandemanianism.

Here is an easy to read retype-set version, the pdf versions are hard to read.

http://baptisthistoryhomepage.com/fuller.gospel.worthy.1.html

I have found it helpful.

 

[Ransom]

Speaking of William Carey he was one of the First Missionaries  of the Calvinist "Particular Baptist Society for Propagating the Gospel among the Heathen".

This would be, of course, the William Carey whose sermon including the catchphrase "Attempt great things for God; expect great things from God," essentially touched off the Baptist foreign mission movement.

And the same William Carey who spent 8 years in India before the mission saw its first convert.

He was, of course, a lousy Calvinist. *snort*

 

[FSSL]

And the same William Carey who spent 8 years in India before the mission saw its first convert. He was, of course, a lousy Calvinist. *snort*

...because he wasted time with the non-elect. Why he didn't check the "Elect" birthmark on their back has always caused me to wonder.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

A friend of mine was saved in a church that went Calvinist after he left it. He went one day to visit his old SS teacher, now Calvinist, who told him he no longer dealt with people in regards to salvation one on one, if they were gonna get saved, God would save them with or without him and whatever he said would have no value or effect. My friend told him he was glad he didn't always think that way as it was the SS teacher that had led him to the Lord.

I have never forgot that story.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Gag me with a spoon about your personal experiences and stories about individual Calvinists. 

I bet if everyone related their run-in with an idiot who held any of the views that YOU share, we could fill up these forums with garbage until they break. 

When you can't provide scriptural support for your view and have to resort to anecdotes about the behavior of someone who holds an opposing view, you've long since lost the argument. 

 

[FSSL]

Sounds like that SS teacher is an arrogant, proud individual that did not want to share the good news (he received) with anyone else.

It was no the fault of Calvinist thinking, but that of a lazy, arrogant person.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Sounds like that SS teacher is an arrogant, proud individual that did not want to share the good news (he received) with anyone else.

It was no the fault of Calvinist thinking, but that of a lazy, arrogant person.

No kidding.

If positions could be held guilty by association, then all the threads on here about the illicit behavior of IFB Pastors must mean everything IFB Pastors believe must be wrong.  Or all IFB must be wrong.  Or all Pastors must be wrong.  Or all men must be wrong.  Take your pick.  Whatever you want to beat up today.