"Your cheatin' heart"

Jubal Sackett

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I did a deposition today in a divorce case. Parties were in their late 40's, early 50's. Children were either away at college or married. Both evangelicals who regularly attended church. Husband is cheating. In the deposition I asked him what led to the affair.  He stated that three years ago when their youngest left for college he attempted to  upgrade their sex life from more than three or four times a year. He said wife informed him that they were beyond that stage of their lives and o just get over it. He stated that she has now adopted a prudish attitude toward anything sexual. The few times that she did give in she was in a hurry to get it over with. He met a woman who is 5 years younger than he is, 10lbs heavier than his wife and evidently a wildcat in the sack. He was quick to state that his wife used to be. He also stated that he had begged, pleaded, suggested counseling and hormone replacement all to no avail.

This is the third divorce with similar circumstances  that I've handled with similar circumstances in the past 6 months.  The last husband said that they went to a Christian counselor but bailed after same refused to address any issues that he had with the wife. he said that all he wanted was for someone to deal with both of them in an impartial manner.

Our churches  are messing up somewhere in dealing with this area. It's only getting worse. What do we do?

Jubal Sackett
 
Are you an attorney?
 
The church needs to call fraud : "fraud".

When is the last time that you heard taught from any Christian in any format, that we have no right to deny our spouse physical relations?
That the Woman owns the man's body, and v/v?
That abstinence is only for a purposeful fast, and should be as short a period as possible (never more than 3 days).

Instead of the truth, husband's and wives are taught what they "need to do to earn their spouses affection", feeding the disease.

It always comes down to what the Scriptures plainly say being replaced by pop "church" culture.


earnestly contend

 
Prophet, I'm not seeing it being addressed, or marriage improvement in general, period. A few months ago I commented to our educational person that I was seeing a lot of members in my office and that a lot of them were consulting me due to infidelity for whatever reason. I suggested that we do some type of marriage enrichment series and was told something was in the works. Then crickets. I'm hearing that the local Catholic church is the only one in the area that is actively addressing the issue.

Jubal Sackett
 
Jubal Sackett said:
Twisted said:
Are you an attorney?

Yes, as was my father before me. Soon my middle son will be an attorney, too.

Jubal Sackett

Good.  The one thing this world needs is more litigation and more attorneys. 
 
Jubal Sackett said:
I did a deposition today in a divorce case. Parties were in their late 40's, early 50's. Children were either away at college or married. Both evangelicals who regularly attended church. Husband is cheating. In the deposition I asked him what led to the affair.  He stated that three years ago when their youngest left for college he attempted to  upgrade their sex life from more than three or four times a year. He said wife informed him that they were beyond that stage of their lives and o just get over it. He stated that she has now adopted a prudish attitude toward anything sexual. The few times that she did give in she was in a hurry to get it over with. He met a woman who is 5 years younger than he is, 10lbs heavier than his wife and evidently a wildcat in the sack. He was quick to state that his wife used to be. He also stated that he had begged, pleaded, suggested counseling and hormone replacement all to no avail.

This is the third divorce with similar circumstances  that I've handled with similar circumstances in the past 6 months.  The last husband said that they went to a Christian counselor but bailed after same refused to address any issues that he had with the wife. he said that all he wanted was for someone to deal with both of them in an impartial manner.

Our churches  are messing up somewhere in dealing with this area. It's only getting worse. What do we do?

Jubal Sackett
During our 1st year of marriage, my pastor at the time had a weekend Marriage Conference with Walter Freemont & his wife at our church. This gave us a good foundation upon which to build. Freemont had the ability to teach & drive home a few points that I still remember to this day without having to review the note. Here are a couple points (as I remember them) that may apply to your discussion:

Love is meeting the needs of the desired object.

True biblical love comes from not only understanding your mate's needs but also giving whatever it takes to meet those needs.

Men are brutes. So Feed The Brute. That means feed him good food & feed his other major appetite.

Be thankful for your mate. I might add, never take each other for granted.

Have family devotions. This reminds each family member that their number 1 devotion is to Christ.
 
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.

Though there is no doubt an issue on the part of the wife, being withheld sex still isn't an excuse to cheat.

Maybe if the church were to teach women are equal to men, created in God's image to be respected and not there mainly to serve male sexual proclivities, maybe men would actually work on loving their wives instead of taking 'favors' from them.
 
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?

   
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.

Though there is no doubt an issue on the part of the wife, being withheld sex still isn't an excuse to cheat.

Maybe if the church were to teach women are equal to men, created in God's image to be respected and not there mainly to serve male sexual proclivities, maybe men would actually work on loving their wives instead of taking 'favors' from them.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

 
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?

   
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.

Though there is no doubt an issue on the part of the wife, being withheld sex still isn't an excuse to cheat.

Maybe if the church were to teach women are equal to men, created in God's image to be respected and not there mainly to serve male sexual proclivities, maybe men would actually work on loving their wives instead of taking 'favors' from them.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

Believe what you want. I want my wife and daughters to know they are NOT sex objects designed to fulfill the sexual desires of a man but rather they are cherished and loved and created in the image of God. I want them to know they have been given individuality outside of cultural gender roles.

They deserve to feel loved and respected, not simply objectified and find their 'role fulfillment' as being a sex slave.
 
Smellin Coffee said:
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?

   
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.

Though there is no doubt an issue on the part of the wife, being withheld sex still isn't an excuse to cheat.

Maybe if the church were to teach women are equal to men, created in God's image to be respected and not there mainly to serve male sexual proclivities, maybe men would actually work on loving their wives instead of taking 'favors' from them.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

Believe what you want. I want my wife and daughters to know they are NOT sex objects designed to fulfill the sexual desires of a man but rather they are cherished and loved and created in the image of God. I want them to know they have been given individuality outside of cultural gender roles.
The churches have been regurgitating the "women aren't sex objects" ad nauseum since I was old enough to know what they were talking about.

That narrative is absolutely unnecessary in 2017.

That we, husbands and wives, are not the possessor of our bodies, but that they belong to our spouse, is the needed doctrine.

You can't see that, in the OP, this couple suffered because of this?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

 
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?

   
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.

Though there is no doubt an issue on the part of the wife, being withheld sex still isn't an excuse to cheat.

Maybe if the church were to teach women are equal to men, created in God's image to be respected and not there mainly to serve male sexual proclivities, maybe men would actually work on loving their wives instead of taking 'favors' from them.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

Believe what you want. I want my wife and daughters to know they are NOT sex objects designed to fulfill the sexual desires of a man but rather they are cherished and loved and created in the image of God. I want them to know they have been given individuality outside of cultural gender roles.
The churches have been regurgitating the "women aren't sex objects" ad nauseum since I was old enough to know what they were talking about.

That narrative is absolutely unnecessary in 2017.

That we, husbands and wives, are not the possessor of our bodies, but that they belong to our spouse, is the needed doctrine.

You can't see that, in the OP, this couple suffered because of this?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

What I see in the OP is a wife who is sick of sex because she feels objectified after decades of being abused. I see in the OP that it is expected the wife "play the tiger" in bed several days a week, even if it goes against her nature.

You are right: the church has taught "women are not sex objects" ad naseum but the reality is, treating women as equals is not the normal practice. So the hypocrisy is found in this teaching yet the Christian husbands live in misogyny. I personally know of 4 divorces of friends who had good marriages, but once the husband bought into the "me man - you woman - you here to serve my needs" philosophy, the marriage began to dissolve. And yes, these 4 couples all came from a "doctrinally-straight" Evangelical church.

I want my wife and daughters to be who God created them to be, not to be sex slaves, providing sex, laundry and cooking services in exchange for shelter and food. Sorry. Not gonna happen in my house, even if it is deemed 'biblical'.
 
Smellin Coffee said:
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?

   
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.

Though there is no doubt an issue on the part of the wife, being withheld sex still isn't an excuse to cheat.

Maybe if the church were to teach women are equal to men, created in God's image to be respected and not there mainly to serve male sexual proclivities, maybe men would actually work on loving their wives instead of taking 'favors' from them.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

Believe what you want. I want my wife and daughters to know they are NOT sex objects designed to fulfill the sexual desires of a man but rather they are cherished and loved and created in the image of God. I want them to know they have been given individuality outside of cultural gender roles.
The churches have been regurgitating the "women aren't sex objects" ad nauseum since I was old enough to know what they were talking about.

That narrative is absolutely unnecessary in 2017.

That we, husbands and wives, are not the possessor of our bodies, but that they belong to our spouse, is the needed doctrine.

You can't see that, in the OP, this couple suffered because of this?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

What I see in the OP is a wife who is sick of sex because she feels objectified after decades of being abused. I see in the OP that it is expected the wife "play the tiger" in bed several days a week, even if it goes against her nature.

You are right: the church has taught "women are not sex objects" ad naseum but the reality is, treating women as equals is not the normal practice. So the hypocrisy is found in this teaching yet the Christian husbands live in misogyny. I personally know of 4 divorces of friends who had good marriages, but once the husband bought into the "me man - you woman - you here to serve my needs" philosophy, the marriage began to dissolve. And yes, these 4 couples all came from a "doctrinally-straight" Evangelical church.

I want my wife and daughters to be who God created them to be, not to be sex slaves, providing sex, laundry and cooking services in exchange for shelter and food. Sorry. Not gonna happen in my house, even if it is deemed 'biblical'.
You read a lot into the OP.


Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

 
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?

   
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.

Though there is no doubt an issue on the part of the wife, being withheld sex still isn't an excuse to cheat.

Maybe if the church were to teach women are equal to men, created in God's image to be respected and not there mainly to serve male sexual proclivities, maybe men would actually work on loving their wives instead of taking 'favors' from them.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

Believe what you want. I want my wife and daughters to know they are NOT sex objects designed to fulfill the sexual desires of a man but rather they are cherished and loved and created in the image of God. I want them to know they have been given individuality outside of cultural gender roles.
The churches have been regurgitating the "women aren't sex objects" ad nauseum since I was old enough to know what they were talking about.

That narrative is absolutely unnecessary in 2017.

That we, husbands and wives, are not the possessor of our bodies, but that they belong to our spouse, is the needed doctrine.

You can't see that, in the OP, this couple suffered because of this?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

What I see in the OP is a wife who is sick of sex because she feels objectified after decades of being abused. I see in the OP that it is expected the wife "play the tiger" in bed several days a week, even if it goes against her nature.

You are right: the church has taught "women are not sex objects" ad naseum but the reality is, treating women as equals is not the normal practice. So the hypocrisy is found in this teaching yet the Christian husbands live in misogyny. I personally know of 4 divorces of friends who had good marriages, but once the husband bought into the "me man - you woman - you here to serve my needs" philosophy, the marriage began to dissolve. And yes, these 4 couples all came from a "doctrinally-straight" Evangelical church.

I want my wife and daughters to be who God created them to be, not to be sex slaves, providing sex, laundry and cooking services in exchange for shelter and food. Sorry. Not gonna happen in my house, even if it is deemed 'biblical'.
You read a lot into the OP.


Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

Perhaps. Maybe it was because of the situations of my friends, seeing how misogynistic teaching destroyed their marriages. Seeing how the guy in the OP feels he has the right to cheat because his wife doesn't have the energy or desire to "be a tiger in bed". She doesn't perform to his standards so he gets to frolic around, breaking his wedding vows (I assume).

Sorry, but marriage shouldn't be about sex; it should be about loving and caring for one another, despite how it affects me. If my wife were in a car accident and became a quadriplegic today, does that give me the right to abandon her and sleep around because she can't fulfill me sexually? Sorry, whether it is an act of her will or physical condition, cheating on her is not an option as long as we both shall live. And raping or sexually groping her simply "because she's mine" is out of the question in my marriage too. I love her too much and respect her too much for that.

Any way, carry on.
 
Smellin Coffee said:
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
prophet said:
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?

   
Smellin Coffee said:
What led to the affair? Loving himself and his sexual desires over the desires of his wife.

Though there is no doubt an issue on the part of the wife, being withheld sex still isn't an excuse to cheat.

Maybe if the church were to teach women are equal to men, created in God's image to be respected and not there mainly to serve male sexual proclivities, maybe men would actually work on loving their wives instead of taking 'favors' from them.
This garbage is exactly what the church has been teaching.
Where have you been?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

Believe what you want. I want my wife and daughters to know they are NOT sex objects designed to fulfill the sexual desires of a man but rather they are cherished and loved and created in the image of God. I want them to know they have been given individuality outside of cultural gender roles.
The churches have been regurgitating the "women aren't sex objects" ad nauseum since I was old enough to know what they were talking about.

That narrative is absolutely unnecessary in 2017.

That we, husbands and wives, are not the possessor of our bodies, but that they belong to our spouse, is the needed doctrine.

You can't see that, in the OP, this couple suffered because of this?



Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

What I see in the OP is a wife who is sick of sex because she feels objectified after decades of being abused. I see in the OP that it is expected the wife "play the tiger" in bed several days a week, even if it goes against her nature.

You are right: the church has taught "women are not sex objects" ad naseum but the reality is, treating women as equals is not the normal practice. So the hypocrisy is found in this teaching yet the Christian husbands live in misogyny. I personally know of 4 divorces of friends who had good marriages, but once the husband bought into the "me man - you woman - you here to serve my needs" philosophy, the marriage began to dissolve. And yes, these 4 couples all came from a "doctrinally-straight" Evangelical church.

I want my wife and daughters to be who God created them to be, not to be sex slaves, providing sex, laundry and cooking services in exchange for shelter and food. Sorry. Not gonna happen in my house, even if it is deemed 'biblical'.
You read a lot into the OP.


Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

Perhaps. Maybe it was because of the situations of my friends, seeing how misogynistic teaching destroyed their marriages. Seeing how the guy in the OP feels he has the right to cheat because his wife doesn't have the energy or desire to "be a tiger in bed". She doesn't perform to his standards so he gets to frolic around, breaking his wedding vows (I assume).

Sorry, but marriage shouldn't be about sex; it should be about loving and caring for one another, despite how it affects me. If my wife were in a car accident and became a quadriplegic today, does that give me the right to abandon her and sleep around because she can't fulfill me sexually? Sorry, whether it is an act of her will or physical condition, cheating on her is not an option as long as we both shall live. And raping or sexually groping her simply "because she's mine" is out of the question in my marriage too. I love her too much and respect her too much for that.

Any way, carry on.
You've lost it.

Now you are assuming that the husband is getting a pass for adultery.

This was a deposition, not a counselling session.

I don't know of any church anywhere teaching "mysogyny" .
If there is, usually a pervert is at the wheel, and the problems that result in the lives of the victims are many.
But they are not anywhere near mainstream.

Are you saying that Evangelical mainstream teaching is mysogynist in nature?

Did your 4 friends go to churches where this was taught, or did these men just act on their own interpretation!

And, more importantly, why do you naturally relate to the woman in a discussion?
So much so, that you "don't care if it's biblical"?


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prophet said:
Now you are assuming that the husband is getting a pass for adultery.

This was a deposition, not a counselling session.

Maybe you're right. I will concede the point but with this caveat: the question is where the church has failed. Not knowing the situation I can't say for sure but could possibly believe the church failed by making the man think his woman is there mainly to be his sex toy.

prophet said:
  I don't know of any church anywhere teaching "mysogyny" .
If there is, usually a pervert is at the wheel, and the problems that result in the lives of the victims are many.
But they are not anywhere near mainstream.

In my limited number of experiences, I would disagree. They aren't overtly teaching it, but it comes into the teaching with the emphasis of "women must submit to men" whether it be in the role of teaching in the church to the topic of marriage.

prophet said:
Are you saying that Evangelical mainstream teaching is mysogynist in nature?

Again, not overtly nor in most cases, purposely, but I believe at least carries the ideology of misogyny. This has been my experience. When was the last time you've seen a woman preach from an Evangelical pulpit to an audience with almost as many men in attendance as women? Where are the woman pastors and deaconesses in Evangelical churches? Or are they excluded from leadership roles "because they are women"?


prophet said:
Did your 4 friends go to churches where this was taught, or did these men just act on their own interpretation!

Yes. It was openly taught, not from behind the pulpit, but rather the Men's Ministry where men were taught to "take charge of your home" through the subjugation of their wives.

prophet said:
And, more importantly, why do you naturally relate to the woman in a discussion?

I have no idea what this means.

prophet said:
So much so, that you "don't care if it's biblical"?

Slavery is "biblical" but I am adamantly opposed to slavery.

(Besides, I said the identifier "deemed biblical" in my wording. :) )


 
Smellin Coffee said:
Believe what you want. I want my wife and daughters to know they are NOT sex objects designed to fulfill the sexual desires of a man but rather they are cherished and loved and created in the image of God. I want them to know they have been given individuality outside of cultural gender roles.

They deserve to feel loved and respected, not simply objectified and find their 'role fulfillment' as being a sex slave.

That Paul was such a misogynist the way he expected women to meet their husbands physical needs. You would wonder why he didn't say anything about it in the other direction. Oh wait, he did! Defrauding is defrauding. Sex is part of the marriage relationship AND covenant. Neither man nor woman has the right to withhold themselves sexually from the other. And yes, I know of men who will not meet their wives sexual needs and they are just as selfish and wrong as a wife who withhold from her husband.

There now that your straw man is defeated and burnt to a crisp what would you like to add to the conversation?
 
mi?sog?y?ny
noun: misogyny

dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.


Obviously, a man who would like to enjoy sex with his wife more than four times a year is living out his misogyny.  ::)
 
Smellin Coffee said:
What I see in the OP is a wife who is sick of sex because she feels objectified after decades of being abused. I see in the OP that it is expected the wife "play the tiger" in bed several days a week, even if it goes against her nature.

So the answer to the question was:

" ... He said wife informed him that they were beyond that stage of their lives and to just get over it."

Obviously misogyny.  ::)
 
Smellin Coffee said:
... I can't say for sure but could possibly believe the church failed by making the man think his woman is there mainly to be his sex toy.

You can't say for sure but drop the atomic bomb accusation anyway.

And you think the church can make a man think. If a man thinks it's okay to cheat on his taxes and drive over the speed limit is that on the church too? This reminds me of the parents whose kids turn out rotten and then blame the church for not raising their kids better for them.
 
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