The Free Will Challenge

Why do people insist upon slandering John Calvin calling him a "Roman Catholic?"
They're just like "progressives." You say something derogatory about a minority when you're 15 and stupid, and you're branded a racist for life.

I hope none of our resident psycho-fundies are Roman Catholic converts. I'd hate to see the same "logic" turned on themselves.
 
They're just like "progressives." You say something derogatory about a minority when you're 15 and stupid, and you're branded a racist for life.

I hope none of our resident psycho-fundies are Roman Catholic converts. I'd hate to see the same "logic" turned on themselves.
So you agree with Calvin on infant baptismal regeneration ?
 
Calvin didn't believe in baptismal regeneration, you ignorant twit.
According to the institutes that he wrote he did. You might want to read them for yourself. Good little lemmings believe what they are told to believe wether true or not.
 
So you agree with Calvin on infant baptismal regeneration ?
I do not see where Calvin ever promoted baptismal regeneration. Luther did but that is somewhat convoluted and having to do with the Augustinian Seminal view of imputation which made infants culpable for Adam's sin. It was a carryover of the Roman Catholic view that infant baptism washes away the guilt of Original Sin.

Later reformers adopted Covenant Theology where infant baptism places you in the "Covenant" and is only to be administered if believing parents are involved. No I do not agree with this view. Reformed Baptists largely hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession which denotes baptism of the believer and repudiates pedobaptism. I do not consider myself a "Reformed Baptist" as I do not hold to all parts of the confession. I remain a dispensational premillennialist which is anathema to most in the Reformed crowd.
 
Well, I happen to have a copy of the Institutes right here. Cite the section, and let's see what he said.
Only a portion of the article:
Furthermore, Calvin never tells of the moment that he renounced the false gospel of Catholicism and believed the true gospel. He extols the sacraments, says they can be performed only by the clergy (including Roman Catholic), and accepts infant baptism by a Catholicpriest as efficacious. If he ever renounced Catholicism’s false gospel, when did this occur? And how could he have, considering that he banned from Geneva(1537) and persecuted the Anabaptists who, though raised Catholics, believed the biblical gospel and as a result were born again and baptized as believers?

The fact that Calvin was only baptized once—as an infant—and that he persecuted as heretics those who were baptized as believers, contradicts entirely what you think the quotations you cite mean. Moreover, one of the two charges (brought to the court by Calvin himself) for which Servetus was burned at the stake was his rejection of infant baptism for salvation. Calvin goes into great detail justifying this charge against Servetus and repeatedly scorning Servetus for rejecting the efficacy of infant baptism for salvation. Please read again pages 79-85 of What Love Is This?where I cover the subject thoroughly. https://www.thebereancall.org/content/april-2006-q-and-a-3
 
Only a portion of the article:
I don't see anything about Calvin's beliefs in "infant baptismal regeneration" in this irrelevant article. Maybe you hallucinated it.

I'll give you a mulligan. Again, I've got Calvin's Institutes right here. The sections on baptism and infant baptism are Book 4, Chapters 15-16. Please show me where he taught "infant baptismal regeneration."

This time, answer the question I asked.
 
I don't see anything about Calvin's beliefs in "infant baptismal regeneration" in this irrelevant article. Maybe you hallucinated it.

I'll give you a mulligan. Again, I've got Calvin's Institutes right here. The sections on baptism and infant baptism are Book 4, Chapters 15-16. Please show me where he taught "infant baptismal regeneration."

This time, answer the question I asked.
Now let me quote Calvin: “...at whatever time we are baptised, we are washed and purified once for the whole life...we must...recall our baptism...so as to feel certain and secure of the remission of sins...it wipes and washes away all our defilements” (IV: xv, 3). Again: “God in baptism promises the remission of sins, and will undoubtedly perform what he has promised to all believers. That promise was offered to us in baptism, let us therefore embrace it in faith” (IV: xxv, 17). And, “We have...a similar promise given to the fathers in circumcision, similar to that which is given to us in baptism...the forgiveness of sins and the mortification of the flesh....We deny...that...the power of God cannot regenerate infants....Let God, then, be demanded why he ordered circumcision to be performed on the bodies of infants...by baptism we are ingrafted into the body of Christ (1 Cor xii.13). [Therefore] infants...are to be baptised...” (IV: xv, 22; xvi, 3, 4, 8, 10, 17-32). I give these quotes in What Love Is This. https://www.thebereancall.org/content/april-2006-q-and-a-3. Sorry it took me a moment to find the quotes with the numbers.
 
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Now let me quote Calvin: “...at whatever time we are baptised, we are washed and purified once for the whole life...we must...recall our baptism...so as to feel certain and secure of the remission of sins...it wipes and washes away all our defilements” (IV: xv, 3).

A quotation that has been doctored to be misleading. What Calvin actually said:

We must realize that at whatever time we are baptized, we are once for all washed and purged for our whole life. Therefore, as often as we fall away, we ought to recall the memory of our baptism and fortify our mind with it, that we may always be sure and confident of the forgiveness of sins. For, though baptism, administered only once, seemed to have passed, it was still not destroyed by subsequent sins. For Christ’s purity has been offered us in it; his purity ever flourishes; it is defiled by no spots, but buries and cleanses away all our defilements. (John Calvin, Institutes, tr. Ford Lewis Battles, 4.15.3.)​

He is not talking about the efficacy of baptism to regenerate sinners, but the need to be baptized only once, and not multiple times for the forgiveness of future sins.

The Battles translation heads 4.15.3 as follows: "Token of cleansing for the whole of life." Baptism is not in itself what saves. It is but a "token," or a symbol (the proper meaning of the word "sacrament"), or a representation. Dave Hunt should have quoted the previous section, as well:

Paul did not mean [in Eph. 5:26 and Tit. 3:5, previously cited] to signify that our cleansing and salvation are accomplished by water, or that water contains in itself the power to cleanse, regenerate, and renew; nor that here is the cause of salvation, but only that in this sacrament [i.e. token or symbol] are received the knowledge and certainty of such gifts.... Indeed, baptism promises us no other purification than through the sprinkling of Christ’s blood, which is represented by means of water from the resemblance to cleansing and washing. Who, therefore, may say that we are cleansed by this water which attests with certainty that Christ’s blood is our true and only laver? (Ibid., 4.15.2.)​

Baptism is a symbol, a representation, of the real means of salvation; the reality is Christ's saving bloodshed. Calvin is quite clear about this. If Dave Hunt was sincerely trying to tell us what Calvin believed about baptism, he couldn't have missed this; it's in the paragraph immediately preceding the one he quoted.

Again: “God in baptism promises the remission of sins, and will undoubtedly perform what he has promised to all believers. That promise was offered to us in baptism, let us therefore embrace it in faith” (IV: xxv, 17).

There is no chapter xxv. This is still part of chapter 15. Hunt's citation is as sloppy as his reading.

But let's look at the beginning of this section. Again, it's the very same paragraph as the one quoted, and if Hunt was reading honestly, then he couldn't have missed it:

Our opponents ask us what faith came to us during some years after our baptism. This they do to prove our baptism void, since it is not sanctified to us except when the word of promise is accepted in faith. To this question we reply that we indeed, being blind and unbelieving, for a long time did not grasp the promise that had been given us in baptism; yet that promise, since it was of God, ever remained fixed and firm and trustworthy. Even if all men are liars and faithless, still God does not cease to be trustworthy [Rom. 3:3]. Even if all men are lost, still Christ remains salvation. We therefore confess that for that time baptism benefited us not at all, inasmuch as the promise offered us in it—without which baptism is nothing—lay neglected. (Ibid., 4.15.17.)​

The objection raised by the "opponents" is that a delay of repentance invalidates baptism. Calvin's response is that baptism is a promise of salvation. It is not the salvation itself. Baptism promises the remission of sins. It does not remit sins. God has promised forgiveness to all believers and is faithful to keep his promise. There is no such promise to unbelievers, and their baptism avails nothing. The promise of forgiveness is given in baptism; forgiveness itself is received in faith.

The remainder of the quotations inveigh against infant baptism, but the specific claim you made was that Calvin believed in "infant baptismal regeneration." It's clear Calvin did not believe in baptismal regeneration; hence the reason he believed in infant baptism was different.

This is what you get for listening to ranters like Dave Hunt. He wasn't ignorant of what he was doing. Many friends of his pointed out the errors in his book What Love Is This?, but he ignored them and published it anyway. He wasn't able to claim ignorance. He knew what he was doing. Hunt was a liar and a fool.
 
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I told Pencilneck I had the works of Calvin at hand, and I even told him where to look to find Calvin's teaching on Baptism. He could have gone to the primary source, which is readily available on the Internet if one isn't so intellectually lazy as to pretend he's actually read it himself, instead of relying on tabloid Christian sites like The Berean Call.

Where Pencilneck should have gone, if he wasn't too busy pretending to know what he was talking about, was Book 4, chapter 15, section 10, where John Calvin makes his views on baptismal regeneration explicitly clear:

It is clear how false is the teaching, long propagated by some and still persisted in by others, that through baptism we are released and made exempt from original sin, and from the corruption that descended from Adam into all his posterity; and are restored into that same righteousness and purity of nature which Adam would have obtained if he had remained upright as he was first created. For teachers of this type never understood what original sin, what original righteousness, or what the grace of baptism was.​

It's clear from experience that we are not free from the corruption of sin, as the baptismal regenerationists would claim. On the contrary:

Lust never actually dies and is extinguished in men until, freed by death from the body of death, they are completely divested of themselves. Baptism indeed promises to us the drowning of our Pharaoh [Ex. 14:28] and the mortification of our sin, but not so that it no longer exists or gives us trouble, but only that it may not overcome us. For so long as we live cooped up in this prison of our body,19 traces of sin will dwell in us; but if we faithfully hold fast to the promise given us by God in baptism, they shall not dominate or rule. (4.15.11)​

In other words, we are not free of sinful influence in this life; but baptism is a symbol of the promise to the believer that sin will be dealt with conclusively, not in this life, but the next life. As Calvin has already said, baptism is the promise of sanctification; it does not itself accomplish sanctification. And this promise is to believers: for those who are baptized but do not believe, baptism signifies nothing.

He goes on to explain this point from Romans 6 and 7 (4.15.12).

Baptism is also a confirmation of faith:

As far as it is a symbol of our confession, we ought by it to testify that our confidence is in God's mercy, and our purity in forgiveness of sins, which has been procured for us through Jesus Christ; and that we enter God's church in order to live harmoniously with all believers in complete agreement of faith and love. This last point was what Paul meant when he said, "We have all been baptized in one Spirit that we may be one body" [I Cor. 12:13 p.]. (4.15.15)​

We have a saying that baptism is an "outward sign of inward faith." According to Calvin, that's not far off the mark.

To close, Calvin says this about the distinction between the symbol of baptism and what it represents:

This analogy or similitude is the surest rule of the sacraments: that we should see spiritual things in physical, as if set before our very eyes. For the Lord was pleased to represent them by such figures--not because such graces are bound and enclosed in the sacrament so as to be conferred upon us by its power, but only because the Lord by this token attests his will toward us, namely, that he is pleased to lavish all these things upon us. And he does not feed our eyes with a mere appearance only, but leads us to the present reality and effectively performs what it symbolizes. (4.15.14)​

The Roman Catholic church teaches baptismal regeneration, saying, "Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1227); and, "It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ" (1239); and, "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude" (1257). What John Calvin would tell us, in light of the above citation, is that baptism, the washing of the body, is a visual symbol: a picture of how God washes away our sins and identifies us with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. According to the Romanists, it is baptism itself that accomplishes these things. Calvin would correctly say that by saying those things are "bound and enclosed" within the sacrament, they have confused the symbol and the thing it signifies.

And that's what Pencilneck could have told us, if he hadn't just been pretending to know what Calvin believed about baptism.
 
I told Pencilneck I had the works of Calvin at hand, and I even told him where to look to find Calvin's teaching on Baptism. He could have gone to the primary source, which is readily available on the Internet if one isn't so intellectually lazy as to pretend he's actually read it himself, instead of relying on tabloid Christian sites like The Berean Call.

Where Pencilneck should have gone, if he wasn't too busy pretending to know what he was talking about, was Book 4, chapter 15, section 10, where John Calvin makes his views on baptismal regeneration explicitly clear:

It is clear how false is the teaching, long propagated by some and still persisted in by others, that through baptism we are released and made exempt from original sin, and from the corruption that descended from Adam into all his posterity; and are restored into that same righteousness and purity of nature which Adam would have obtained if he had remained upright as he was first created. For teachers of this type never understood what original sin, what original righteousness, or what the grace of baptism was.​

It's clear from experience that we are not free from the corruption of sin, as the baptismal regenerationists would claim. On the contrary:

Lust never actually dies and is extinguished in men until, freed by death from the body of death, they are completely divested of themselves. Baptism indeed promises to us the drowning of our Pharaoh [Ex. 14:28] and the mortification of our sin, but not so that it no longer exists or gives us trouble, but only that it may not overcome us. For so long as we live cooped up in this prison of our body,19 traces of sin will dwell in us; but if we faithfully hold fast to the promise given us by God in baptism, they shall not dominate or rule. (4.15.11)​

In other words, we are not free of sinful influence in this life; but baptism is a symbol of the promise to the believer that sin will be dealt with conclusively, not in this life, but the next life. As Calvin has already said, baptism is the promise of sanctification; it does not itself accomplish sanctification. And this promise is to believers: for those who are baptized but do not believe, baptism signifies nothing.

He goes on to explain this point from Romans 6 and 7 (4.15.12).

Baptism is also a confirmation of faith:

As far as it is a symbol of our confession, we ought by it to testify that our confidence is in God's mercy, and our purity in forgiveness of sins, which has been procured for us through Jesus Christ; and that we enter God's church in order to live harmoniously with all believers in complete agreement of faith and love. This last point was what Paul meant when he said, "We have all been baptized in one Spirit that we may be one body" [I Cor. 12:13 p.]. (4.15.15)​

We have a saying that baptism is an "outward sign of inward faith." According to Calvin, that's not far off the mark.

To close, Calvin says this about the distinction between the symbol of baptism and what it represents:

This analogy or similitude is the surest rule of the sacraments: that we should see spiritual things in physical, as if set before our very eyes. For the Lord was pleased to represent them by such figures--not because such graces are bound and enclosed in the sacrament so as to be conferred upon us by its power, but only because the Lord by this token attests his will toward us, namely, that he is pleased to lavish all these things upon us. And he does not feed our eyes with a mere appearance only, but leads us to the present reality and effectively performs what it symbolizes. (4.15.14)​

The Roman Catholic church teaches baptismal regeneration, saying, "Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1227); and, "It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ" (1239); and, "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude" (1257). What John Calvin would tell us, in light of the above citation, is that baptism, the washing of the body, is a visual symbol: a picture of how God washes away our sins and identifies us with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. According to the Romanists, it is baptism itself that accomplishes these things. Calvin would correctly say that by saying those things are "bound and enclosed" within the sacrament, they have confused the symbol and the thing it signifies.

And that's what Pencilneck could have told us, if he hadn't just been pretending to know what Calvin believed about baptism.
Hey lame brain I don’t study Calvin I study Jesus and what the Apostles taught, and since Calvin was not an Apostle he is insignificant as far as anyone wanting to grow in the Lord is concerned. See anyone can act 6 and call names, lol.
 
Hey lame brain I don’t study Calvin I study Jesus and what the Apostles taught, and since Calvin was not an Apostle he is insignificant as far as anyone wanting to grow in the Lord is concerned. See anyone can act 6 and call names, lol.
I don’t think Ransom’s goading of you is appropriate, but as a non-Calvinist who has been where you apparently are in your journey (desirous to expose Calvinism’s and Calvinist’s errors) I can promise you that misrepresenting their belief’s isn’t the best way to win any arguments nor will it convince any onlookers who hope to learn the truth. Ransom’s scathing analysis may indeed be hard to swallow because of the way he interjects personal barbs, but if you look it the objective truth of how he documents Calvin’s own work and words (rather than citing secondary biased sources) you will be better equipped to understand your opponents and consequently not make easily disproved claims. I say this not to “gang up” on you, but rather to help you grow in understanding, from the perspective of one who has walked a mile in your shoes.
 
I don’t think Ransom’s goading of you is appropriate, but as a non-Calvinist who has been where you apparently are in your journey (desirous to expose Calvinism’s and Calvinist’s errors) I can promise you that misrepresenting their belief’s isn’t the best way to win any arguments nor will it convince any onlookers who hope to learn the truth. Ransom’s scathing analysis may indeed be hard to swallow because of the way he interjects personal barbs, but if you look it the objective truth of how he documents Calvin’s own work and words (rather than citing secondary biased sources) you will be better equipped to understand your opponents and consequently not make easily disproved claims. I say this not to “gang up” on you, but rather to help you grow in understanding, from the perspective of one who has walked a mile in your shoes.
I don’t think Ransom’s goading of you is appropriate, but as a non-Calvinist who has been where you apparently are in your journey (desirous to expose Calvinism’s and Calvinist’s errors) I can promise you that misrepresenting their belief’s isn’t the best way to win any arguments nor will it convince any onlookers who hope to learn the truth. Ransom’s scathing analysis may indeed be hard to swallow because of the way he interjects personal barbs, but if you look it the objective truth of how he documents Calvin’s own work and words (rather than citing secondary biased sources) you will be better equipped to understand your opponents and consequently not make easily disproved claims. I say this not to “gang up” on you, but rather to help you grow in understanding, from the perspective of one who has walked a mile in your shoes.
If Calvinist honestly read and believed scripture they would not be Calvinist. I have been told by Calvinist that I interpret the following verse from a humanistic stand point and misinterpret the verse, lol.
Unchecked Copy Box
Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel ofChrist: for it is the power ofGod unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jewfirst, and also to the Greek. The “to everyone that believeth” seems to give Calvinist heart burn just like John 3:16’s “for whosoever believeth”. I may delve into Calvin’s institutes because he was a master at double speak like his teachers in the Roman Catholic Church. Thanks for the advice.
 
If Calvinist honestly read and believed scripture they would not be Calvinist. I have been told by Calvinist that I interpret the following verse from a humanistic stand point and misinterpret the verse, lol.
Unchecked Copy Box
Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel ofChrist: for it is the power ofGod unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jewfirst, and also to the Greek. The “to everyone that believeth” seems to give Calvinist heart burn just like John 3:16’s “for whosoever believeth”. I may delve into Calvin’s institutes because he was a master at double speak like his teachers in the Roman Catholic Church. Thanks for the advice.
I agree with you that there are “all” verses in the Bible that are problematic for Calvinists. I was merely pointing out that when Ransom, or any well-informed Calvinist asks you to substantiate your claims with evidence that you simply produce credible support. Dave Hunt, as shown by Ransom, edited things to misrepresent Calvin. When you cite people who poorly construct their evidence it substantiates the Calvinist’s attacks and rebuttals. I know what baptismal regeneration is, but Calvin didn’t teach that, especially in the sacerdotal sense that Roman Catholic doctrine teaches. I don’t care for certain aspects of Calvinism nor Covenant theology but in order to effectively combat these things we should make accurate truth statements when deconstructing them.
 
I agree with you that there are “all” verses in the Bible that are problematic for Calvinists. I was merely pointing out that when Ransom, or any well-informed Calvinist asks you to substantiate your claims with evidence that you simply produce credible support. Dave Hunt, as shown by Ransom, edited things to misrepresent Calvin. When you cite people who poorly construct their evidence it substantiates the Calvinist’s attacks and rebuttals. I know what baptismal regeneration is, but Calvin didn’t teach that, especially in the sacerdotal sense that Roman Catholic doctrine teaches. I don’t care for certain aspects of Calvinism nor Covenant theology but in order to effectively combat these things we should make accurate truth statements when deconstructing them.
I have read some of Calvin’s beliefs about baptizing babies in the institutes and none of it is scriptural IMO.
 
I have read some of Calvin’s beliefs about baptizing babies in the institutes and none of it is scriptural IMO.
I have read only excerpts, and I also reject infant baptism wholeheartedly, and could state numerous problems with that practice, but many Protestants who do believe in paedobaptism do so (in error) without believing it imparts efficacious salvation to the baby.
 
I have read only excerpts, and I also reject infant baptism wholeheartedly, and could state numerous problems with that practice, but many Protestants who do believe in paedobaptism do so (in error) without believing it imparts efficacious salvation to the baby.
I am not sure that is correct but I will study some more before I step in someone’s mess again, lol.
 
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