Hello, Folks!

[Ransom]

I see someone else hasn't changed!

So much for growth, but that's not my cross to bear.

You've grown to be a fool, certainly. I'll stick with what I've got.

So you're a "hybrid" of theist and atheist. What does that even mean? That the number of gods that exists is somewhere between 0 and 1?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

You've grown to be a fool, certainly. I'll stick with what I've got.

So you're a "hybrid" of theist and atheist. What does that even mean? That the number of gods that exists is somewhere between 0 and 1?

I'll bite.

I consider myself A/Theist, living in the slash.

I believe "god" is a placeholder term used to identify a gap in our vocabulary to express the existence of the unknowable. Kinda like "zero". Zero isn't a digit but rather a reference to nothingness within the realm of mathematics. It is a something that is a physical nothing. I believe in "God" as a term used to describe a something that is a physical nothing. I doubt it is an actual being but rather a something other than what we can even imagine, much less comprehend.

 

[Ransom]

I consider myself A/Theist, living in the slash....

I believe in "God" as a term used to describe a something that is a physical nothing.

You realize incoherence isn't an intellectual virtue, right?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

You realize incoherence isn't an intellectual virtue, right?

Doesn't matter. I know how my mind thinks.

Vocabulary never does full justice to meaning anyway.

 

[Ransom]

Doesn't matter. I know how my mind thinks.
Vocabulary never does full justice to meaning anyway.

That's very Zen.

If you got your Zen at the dollar store.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Ethics are cultural and in essence, relative. And ethics can be either good or bad.

There is no binary source of ethics. Stealing food from a grocery store - generally bad. Stealing food from a grocery store when there is no money and to feed a starving baby, generally good.

The question I ask myself is this: will this cause harm or good? If both, will it be more helpful to the one of the two that is most marginalized or will it help the oppressive person or system?

Not saying my position is a universal mandate for anyone else but this is how I choose to live. Which means yes, I am the source of what I deem is right and wrong. FYI, so does EVERY PERSON who lives. They might cloak it in "God's Word" but it is ultimately their choice to determine the source, its interpretation and application, hence making the choice of ethics a relative one.

To have absolute binary knowledge is original sin: to be like God, knowing good and evil, determining who is in and who is out.

Of course there is contradiction in that because to determine the empire is out or say, sexual predators are out is a part of "playing God" so humanity has no choice but to be its own god. So yes, I am a contradiction.

Ok, just so long as you recognize that in your relativistic and humanistic theory that Hitler’s ethics are just as good as yours.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Ok, just so long as you recognize that in your relativistic and humanistic theory that Hitler’s ethics are just as good as yours.

This is the dialectic of ethics as a binary. Both you and I know Hitler was wrong and yet neither of us need a "god" to tell us that. We also know that ethics can be moral or immoral and it isn't how the Bible views as what is ethical or not which is the standard.

Hitler was a Christian so you can tell how I have an issue with Christian ethics.

FYI, this is NOT a one-off thing either. The Bible is filled with stories of "godly" genocide and we have history involving the Inquisition, Witch Trials, Manifest Destiny, American slavery, etc which give real life examples of "Christian ethics".

 

[ALAYMAN]

This is the dialectic of ethics as a binary. Both you and I know Hitler was wrong and yet neither of us need a "god" to tell us that.

I know no such thing. Nietzsche might legitimately argue Hitler wasn’t wrong and he has more sophistication in his reasoning than you or I.


And in no reasonable sense would any sane person conclude Hitler was a Christ follower.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I know no such thing. Nietzsche might legitimately argue Hitler wasn’t wrong and he has more sophistication in his reasoning than you or I.


And in no reasonable sense would any sane person conclude Hitler was a Christ follower.

I didn't say Hitler was a Christ-follower; I said he was a Christian.

Two different things, IMHO.

 

[Ransom]

Two different things, IMHO.

Sort of like "zero" and "nothing."

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Cool.

Before I respond…It seems everyone here knows you except me. Out of curiosity, and just in a nutshell, what is your background?

I grew up IFB and ended up pretty much rejecting Christianity for many years once I started attending a secular university, but have back in church for about the past fifteen years, and back in IFB for about the past ten or so.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Before I respond…It seems everyone here knows you except me. Out of curiosity, and just in a nutshell, what is your background?

I grew up IFB and ended up pretty much rejecting Christianity for many years once I started attending a secular university, but have back in church for about the past fifteen years, and back in IFB for about the past ten or so.

Grew up in Hammond. Attended HB and HAC from Grade 2 through college graduation. Parents were on staff at Hyles-Anderson so many people on here know my real name so even though you might not know me, many folks know who I am. I've been on iterations of FFF since probably the late 90s/early 2000s, back when it was on JackHyles.net (IIRC).

Left IFB when I was about 27 and attended a nondenom Evangelical church. Was involved in youth ministry and spent a few years as the middle school youth pastor at the church I attended.

Moved to NC from NW Indiana about 2006 as a full-fledged Evangelical. About 2013 of so I began seeing ethical concerns with my belief system as I began seeing how the beliefs I espoused were hurting other people. In 2015 when the Evangelical base supported Trump who admitted he was a sexual predator, I began reading historical Christianity and delved into the violence it had created for centuries, culminating with the incredibly violent undertones in its theology. Attended a Methodist church for a while in attempt to hang on to what thread of faith I had remaining but even in its progressive state, saw more of the same. At this point, my ethics overcame my theology and it all crumbled.

I don't mourn going through the metamorphosis but I do mourn losing so many years to the ideology I gave my life for as well as regret for the emotional and mental damage my Evangelical faith did to my children. My wife and I have a great relationship with each of our kids so there is no point of contention between any of us, but we had to profusely apologize for many of the Evangelically harmful things we taught them, both verbally and non-verbally.

 

[Gringo]

.
Welcome back, Smellin! Glad you are here.
I knew you had been a student there (HAC) but I didn't realize the EXTENT to which you were involved there.
.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

.
Welcome back, Smellin! Glad you are here.
I knew you had been a student there (HAC) but I didn't realize the EXTENT to which you were involved there.
.

Yes sir!

I was pretty much a lifer at one point.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I consider myself A/Theist, living in the slash.

I think the proper label is agnostic.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Grew up in Hammond. Attended HB and HAC from Grade 2 through college graduation. Parents were on staff at Hyles-Anderson so many people on here know my real name so even though you might not know me, many folks know who I am. I've been on iterations of FFF since probably the late 90s/early 2000s, back when it was on JackHyles.net (IIRC).

Substitute the Midwest with the South, and the acronym HAC with that of BJU, and our upbringings are somewhat similar.

About 2013 of so I began seeing ethical concerns with my belief system as I began seeing how the beliefs I espoused were hurting other people.

Are you referring to Christianity, or just your interpretation of Christianity?

In 2015 when the Evangelical base supported Trump who admitted he was a sexual predator, I began reading historical Christianity and delved into the violence it had created for centuries, culminating with the incredibly violent undertones in its theology.

The Evangelical base aligns with whichever candidate most closely adheres to its beliefs, just like, for example, 61% of the LGBTQ voting bloc went to Biden compared to just 28% for Trump. Why? Because Biden most closely aligned with their values and concerns. What’s wrong with that?

I don't mourn going through the metamorphosis but I do mourn losing so many years to the ideology I gave my life for as well as regret for the emotional and mental damage my Evangelical faith did to my children.

Christianity doesn’t cause a child mental, emotional or physical abuse anymore than Islam or Judaism, but how a human chooses to apply a faith can.

My wife and I have a great relationship with each of our kids so there is no point of contention between any of us, but we had to profusely apologize for many of the Evangelically harmful things we taught them, both verbally and non-verbally.

So in the year 2006 you were convinced you had it all figured out, spiritually speaking, but you later changed your mind. Now, in 2023, you also think you have it all figured out, again, spiritually speaking. I can’t help but wonder if a decade or two from now you’ll be going back to your kids again and asking for forgiveness and trying to convince them that you made a mistake.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I think the proper label is agnostic.

I know what agnosticism is. my position isn't that either.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I don't know how to do the multi-quote thingy so I hope this makes sense:

Are you referring to Christianity, or just your interpretation of Christianity?
Fair enough. There is no singular Christianity, just Christianities. My perspective would be from the lens of Western Fundamentalism and mainstream Western Evangelicalism and Catholicism.

The Evangelical base aligns with whichever candidate most closely adheres to its beliefs, just like, for example, 61% of the LGBTQ voting bloc went to Biden compared to just 28% for Trump. Why? Because Biden most closely aligned with their values and concerns. What’s wrong with that?

If you can't believe that admitted sexual predation and bragging about it isn't a disqualifier for any political candidate, that is on you. I don't need to point out what is wrong with that.

Christianity doesn’t cause a child mental, emotional or physical abuse anymore than Islam or Judaism, but how a human chooses to apply a faith can.

Bullseye. But by their mere existence, despite some good (a decent-size portion of which Evangelicalism will deny/exclude - i.e. Liberation and Queer theologies), most of the major religions bring harm. I've 50 years of being eyewitness to watching the destruction caused by Funda/gelicalism, myself being a very part of the causation of scapegoating and carnage.

So in the year 2006 you were convinced you had it all figured out, spiritually speaking, but you later changed your mind. Now, in 2023, you also think you have it all figured out, again, spiritually speaking. I can’t help but wonder if a decade or two from now you’ll be going back to your kids again and asking for forgiveness and trying to convince them that you made a mistake.

Pretty much sums it up. That is what growth is about. Growth comes from learning from voices we choose to reject because they don't fit our presupposed narrative about (whatever topic is the subject). That doesn't mean believing those voices of opposition are of absolute truth, but rather use those voices as self-reflection to see how I (and in this case, my faith practices) uplift or hurt those we were/are marginalizing.

Perhaps a decade from now, I will believe differently. I'm OK with that. I used to say and truly believe "Never!" in leaving Christianity but life has brought about change, particularly through self-inspection. I hope to always be an echo of voices of folks I used to scapegoat, marginalize and condemn (within ethical reason). Naturally, that will come with mistakes and the self-inspection will always eventually reveal blind spots, causing disruption in my life. I'm becoming cool with that and welcome the freedom to make myself a better person in the last couple decades I may have left.

 

[abcaines]

Perhaps a decade from now, I will believe differently. I'm OK with that. I used to say and truly believe "Never!" in leaving Christianity but life has brought about change, particularly through self-inspection. I hope to always be an echo of voices of folks I used to scapegoat, marginalize and condemn (within ethical reason). Naturally, that will come with mistakes and the self-inspection will always eventually reveal blind spots, causing disruption in my life. I'm becoming cool with that and welcome the freedom to make myself a better person in the last couple decades I may have left.

I'm just curious... In one of your replies to what I said, you mention your wife. (You apparently regard her very highly) If I'm not being too nosey, where is your wife in all of this; you going from being a "man of faith" to questioning and walking away from such faith?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I'm just curious... In one of your replies to what I said, you mention your wife. (You apparently regard her very highly) If I'm not being too nosey, where is your wife in all of this; you going from being a "man of faith" to questioning and walking away from such faith?

She has deconstructed with me so there haven't been any issues concerning our marriage. Along with the predatory behaviors the churches have shown us for 5 decades, a major part of us walking away for her was our interaction with those folks the church kicked out, starting with a homeschooled church-friend of our daughter who was being abused because she was gay. We took her in (she just turned 18) and our church "family" shunned us. We helped this girl find work, taught her how to establish herself and she married a beautiful girl a couple years ago and is now happy and healthy because my wife helped her into adulting.

Since then, we have met many beautiful queer folks as well as increased our circle of ethnically-diverse friends and listening to their voices and their treatment by "the church" really helped her see the things I had detected earlier.

We've been walking together through deconstruction with her taking a step ahead then I take a step ahead, etc. So even though we've not believed the same things at the same time, we've always been heading in the same direction together just like it was when we left Fundamentalism for mainstream Evangelicalism.

I want to add this as an edit: Since about year 2 or 3 in our marriage, I stopped trying to be my wife's "spiritual leader". She lives her life and I live mine and we both live as support beams in each other's life. For well over 30 years, I never insisted she believe what I believe spiritually or even politically. We are individuals who love and support one another despite differences. And I love her FOR her differences, for her loving me enough to reveal me my blind spots, for allowing me to be real and vulnerable to her in confidence.

I want her to be who she is and her best self and she wants the same for me. Whenever there is conflict, we both highly respect the other and neither demands a targeted solution but always seem to come to some kind of agreement.