Arrogant and Impolite - This is Why they Hate Us

[S.T.Ranger]

Me: I am certainly not looking for reasons to drink. I have always preached against liquor. For years I tried to find every way to make the Bible say it is always wrong, but I just can't come to that conclusion. It is dangerous, it is obsolete, it is unnecessary, it is abusive, it is annoying....but I still can't find a universal condemnation of all alcohol consumption in scripture and I can't preach what I don't believe the Bible says. My motive is not to promote drinking, it is to rightfully divide the word of truth. We may come to different conclusions on the sinfulness of alcohol, but we both agree the Bible paints a very negative picture and Christians should abstain for testimonies sake if for no other reason.

I think something that might be considered is that Scripture takes into consideration there are two classes of existence, that which is mundane, which looks at typical life and includes secular society, and then those separated unto God. To complicate it a little more, lol, I see a clear division between the Old and New Testament in regards to existence, in which we can view the Old Testament picture of the Church, Israel, (the Church being the current picture of the One Fold of the Eternal State) as a separate entity from the Church, and, if we fail to make that distinction we will make the error of imposing principles that applied to Israel to ourselves as the Body of Christ.

Now, Man's existence in Old Testament Economies was primarily mundane, or, physical. That should not be compared to our existence as the Church, in which the primary difference being that separates us from Israel and those of faith prior to the Law...is the Eternal Indwelling of God. Now how that is relevant to this discussion and how we would view alcohol consumption is that we have a directive for self control, which is a fruit of the Spirit, and the simple fact is that alcohol deprives the individual of self control, which itself is contrary to how we are expected to exist.

To put it in practical terms, we do not need to turn to wine for comfort when we grieve. We do not need to turn to strong drink to make our hearts merry. And as a matter of fact we do not need wine for medicinal purposes, though I will admit Nyquil is a very effective medicine for colds and various bugs, lol.

So my own opinion is that when we debate this, as the Body of Christ, we should never make it a matter of Bible Pong, trying to apply Old Testament principles, if they can be viewed as principles, to our existence as born again believers.

All I can ask is what benefit can one gain from indulging in alcohol, and what does he/she lose from abstinence?

The answer to both is nothing.

But what does one gain by abstaining?

And I quote: This is Why they Hate Us

They are going to hate us, not because we do what they do, but because we are separated from the principles of mundane existence. I see no valid reason for a born again believer indulging in alcohol, when the primary reason people drink alcohol is of course to change the state of their mind. I see people argue that Christ drank alcohol, so it must be okay, but, Christ lived under the Law in a culture far removed from our own. So instead of trying to find parallels to Old Testament principles, it is my own opinion we should strive to be the separated people we are. We are separated from the World, and we are even separated from those who lived under Law. So lets strive to live like that.

The OP mentioned a desire for total prohibition, which would be fantastic...for us, but not for the world. The reason is because that is a apart of their existence. Not ours.


God bless.

 

[Recovering IFB]

I think something that might be considered is that Scripture takes into consideration there are two classes of existence, that which is mundane, which looks at typical life and includes secular society, and then those separated unto God. To complicate it a little more, lol, I see a clear division between the Old and New Testament in regards to existence, in which we can view the Old Testament picture of the Church, Israel, (the Church being the current picture of the One Fold of the Eternal State) as a separate entity from the Church, and, if we fail to make that distinction we will make the error of imposing principles that applied to Israel to ourselves as the Body of Christ.

Do you have any Scripture to back up your "theory"?

Now, Man's existence in Old Testament Economies was primarily mundane, or, physical. That should not be compared to our existence as the Church, in which the primary difference being that separates us from Israel and those of faith prior to the Law...is the Eternal Indwelling of God.

The major difference between the OT and NT was that the OT was pointing to Christ. You have yet to prove what you are assuming.

Now how that is relevant to this discussion and how we would view alcohol consumption is that we have a directive for self control, which is a fruit of the Spirit, and the simple fact is that alcohol deprives the individual of self control, which itself is contrary to how we are expected to exist.

Galatians 5:22-24 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Funny, I don"t see abstaining  in those verses...could it be that self control is a fruit? could it be that when believers partake in God's gift that they actually are able to control themselves?  When you are alone in an elevator with a woman, do you attack her? or are you able to control yourself?

To put it in practical terms, we do not need to turn to wine for comfort when we grieve. We do not need to turn to strong drink to make our hearts merry. And as a matter of fact we do not need wine for medicinal purposes, though I will admit Nyquil is a very effective medicine for colds and various bugs, lol.

even though Scripture says so, you say otherwise. Do you have Scripture to back up your claim or is this your opinion?

So my own opinion is that when we debate this, as the Body of Christ, we should never make it a matter of Bible Pong, trying to apply Old Testament principles, if they can be viewed as principles, to our existence as born again believers.

Hmmmm?
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day? 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance
belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep  defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen,inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 ?Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!? 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)?in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

All I can ask is what benefit can one gain from indulging in alcohol, and what does he/she lose from abstinence?
The answer to both is nothing.

But what does one gain by abstaining?

Indulging? how about partaking? Again your traditions make you blind to the gift of God. You will probably deny that Jesus drank. (Luke 7:34)

They are going to hate us, not because we do what they do, but because we are separated from the principles of mundane existence.

No, they hate us because they, first and foremost hate God.  by this statement "because we are separated from the principles of mundane existence" Shows that you believe that you are somehow responsible for your walk in Christ, its not, its God.(1 Peter 1:5)

I see no valid reason for a born again believer indulging partaking in alcohol, when the primary reason people drink alcohol is of course to change the state of their mind.(Or that God gives to people to enjoy) I see people argue that Christ drank alcohol, so it must be okay, but, Christ lived under the Law in a culture far removed from our own.( So is bestiality OK then? There is no NT directive) So instead of trying to find parallels to Old Testament principles, it is my own opinion we should strive to be the separated people we are. We are separated from the World, and we are even separated from those who lived under Law. So lets strive to live like that.

The OP mentioned a desire for total prohibition, which would be fantastic...for us, ( Not Biblical, but man made, see Verse above)but not for the world. The reason is because that is a apart of their existence. Not ours.


God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

I think something that might be considered is that Scripture takes into consideration there are two classes of existence, that which is mundane, which looks at typical life and includes secular society, and then those separated unto God. To complicate it a little more, lol, I see a clear division between the Old and New Testament in regards to existence, in which we can view the Old Testament picture of the Church, Israel, (the Church being the current picture of the One Fold of the Eternal State) as a separate entity from the Church, and, if we fail to make that distinction we will make the error of imposing principles that applied to Israel to ourselves as the Body of Christ.

Do you have any Scripture to back up your "theory"?

Sure:


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


This contrasts those under the New Covenant in general, but we also see the Church distinguished from those who were under the sacrificial provision of Old Testament Economies, stated here as "...the spirits of just men made perfect."

Hebrews teaches a theme of "perfection" which deals with, not just the Doctrine of Christ, but is specific to Remission of sins. Old Testament Saints were not made perfect in regards of remission of sins, as noted here:


Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


However, those sanctified by Christ are made perfect...


Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


...for ever.


And a simple conclusion we can draw from Scripture is that if the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery not revealed until The Comforter came, then it is impossible to see men being saved by the Gospel under New Covenant conditions in the Old Testament.

But if you are interested in discussing the difference between the Old Testament Saint and the New Covenant Born Again Believer please join the discussion "Regeneration."

This thread seems to center on the issue of alcohol and whether believers can or should drink it.

Continued...

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Now, Man's existence in Old Testament Economies was primarily mundane, or, physical. That should not be compared to our existence as the Church, in which the primary difference being that separates us from Israel and those of faith prior to the Law...is the Eternal Indwelling of God.

The major difference between the OT and NT was that the OT was pointing to Christ. You have yet to prove what you are assuming.

Why would I need to prove what is basic to Scripture?

You do see a difference between the physical provision of animal sacrifice and the Sacrifice of Christ, right?

You do see a difference between manna from Heaven and the True Bread which came down from Heaven, right?

You do see a difference between the Holy Spirit being with the Old Testament Saint and being in the New Covenant believer, right?

You do see the difference between the Tabernacle/Temple and its priesthood and the Temple of God Christ  established, and it's Great High Priest...right?

Only we, having been given the understanding of the Old Testament Prophecy...understand that the Old Testament "looked forward to the Cross." The Old Testament Saint did not have an understanding of Who Christ was.

Nor, for that matter...did the disciples of Christ until Pentecost:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


The disciples were carnal (physical) in their understanding of Messiah, this is why Peter is hostile towards the Gospel of Christ here, and will go on to seek to keep Christ from the Cross with a sword, and when that fails, seek to save his physical life by denying he even knew the Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, this is more relevant to the other thread, and again, I welcome you to join in.


Continued...

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Now how that is relevant to this discussion and how we would view alcohol consumption is that we have a directive for self control, which is a fruit of the Spirit, and the simple fact is that alcohol deprives the individual of self control, which itself is contrary to how we are expected to exist.

Galatians 5:22-24 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Funny, I don"t see abstaining  in those verses...

You miss the point made: we have a directive to maintain self control...


2 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


...and I see nothing of a "Let go and let God" mentality implied.

Further, if we do those things which are contrary to how God would have us live, then we risk being barren and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So the point is this: if we do things that are contrary to what we are supposed to be doing, then we cannot expect fruit of the Spirit, for we grieve the Spirit, in my view.

Not sure if the "recovering" in your name has to do with alcohol or not, but if it does, then you should know that alcohol impairs self control, and while it is possible to function under learned conditions, let's not try to suggest that one can be more focused by having a little nip now or then. Or, worse case scenario, indulging the flesh perhaps a little more than the acceptable indulgence most try to defend their alcoholic consumption as.

could it be that self control is a fruit?

So is love, joy, and peace. but does that mean the Holy Spirit just zaps us with this fruit and we are good to go from salvation on? Not at all.


Titus 2:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

could it be that when believers partake in God's gift that they actually are able to control themselves? 

So you add alcohol to the gifts of God?

Could you show me that in the New Testament?

When you are alone in an elevator with a woman, do you attack her? or are you able to control yourself?

?

Do you have thoughts of attacking women in elevators? If so, might be a good time to rethink your position on alcohol...


Continued...

 

[S.T.Ranger]

To put it in practical terms, we do not need to turn to wine for comfort when we grieve. We do not need to turn to strong drink to make our hearts merry. And as a matter of fact we do not need wine for medicinal purposes, though I will admit Nyquil is a very effective medicine for colds and various bugs, lol.

even though Scripture says so, you say otherwise. Do you have Scripture to back up your claim or is this your opinion?

You deny we should have our joy and comfort in God rather than drink?

Paul did say...


1 Timothy 5:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.


This seems to imply Paul is instructing Timothy to do something that apparently he likely would not do apart from the advice given, which in itself suggest s that for a Christian taking wine for medicinal purposes was not the norm.

As far as New Testament passages explicitly denouncing the use of alcohol, there are quite a few. Here is one:


1 Corinthians 6:9-11
King James Version (KJV)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


What shall we say, "I still use alcohol but I am no longer a drunkard..."

But wait...that's what alcoholics usually say "...I am not a drunk. I don't have a drinking problem..."

So my own opinion is that when we debate this, as the Body of Christ, we should never make it a matter of Bible Pong, trying to apply Old Testament principles, if they can be viewed as principles, to our existence as born again believers.

Hmmmm?

A few more bars, please, don't recognize it quite yet...

Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day?

Are you seriously going to try to use this statement to say believers have no business judging those who...drink? review his statement above and then...tell Paul that.

I don't think Paul is saying here that we should remain silent if someone is indulging the flesh with alcohol.

Consider:


Ephesians 5:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;


What are the two choices here? Are you going to argue one can be filled with the Holy Spirit...by drinking wine?  And it goes back to the original point: drinking alcohol is contrary to self control, no matter how much one wants to argue differently.

We could equally say "Love is the fruit of the Spirit so I can hate my brother a little if I want to..."

17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance
belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep  defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen,inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 ?Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!? 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)?in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body,

If you are still hooked on alcohol then you have not died to the elementary principles of the world.

Not drinking alcohol is not a false practice imposed on others, at least by me. Secondly, we would actually have to see someone saying "You must drink alcohol" in order for it to fit the context of this discussion. What we can say is that no-one can seriously argue that changing the state of their mind has anything to do with our worship or service or daily conversation from a Biblical perspective.

Secondly, the primary point is holding fast to Christ...not a bottle.

but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

And drinking is a fleshly indulgence. You can give no good reason to drink it as a Born Again believer.

None.


Continued...

 

[S.T.Ranger]

All I can ask is what benefit can one gain from indulging in alcohol, and what does he/she lose from abstinence?
The answer to both is nothing.

But what does one gain by abstaining?

Indulging? how about partaking?

Show me where we are told to partake of alcohol.

You know what you get when you partake of alcohol, an altered state of mind. But what happens when you partake of the Holy Ghost?

The fruit of the Spirit.

A buzz is not fruit of the Spirit.

Again your traditions make you blind to the gift of God.

My tradition? lol

I use to be a drunk and drug addict. God has taken this tradition of man out of my life.

You will probably deny that Jesus drank. (Luke 7:34)

I actually pointed that out in my post. It was part of His Culture, which was not only ancient to our time but it was a culture under Law.

They are going to hate us, not because we do what they do, but because we are separated from the principles of mundane existence.

No, they hate us because they, first and foremost hate God.  by this statement "because we are separated from the principles of mundane existence" Shows that you believe that you are somehow responsible for your walk in Christ, its not, its God.(1 Peter 1:5)

What they hate are people who try to tell them they need to change their lives, and they look at us...and see nothing different.

So why do they need to change their lives? What is different about your/my life and theirs?

I see no valid reason for a born again believer indulging partaking in alcohol, when the primary reason people drink alcohol is of course to change the state of their mind.

(Or that God gives to people to enjoy)

But if you drink too much...you spend eternity separated from God?

Drunkenness is an evidence of an unregenerate state, one of separation from God. That does not mean I don't think born again believers cannot fall into the sin of drunkenness, sure they can. But let's not try to say its okay.

I see people argue that Christ drank alcohol, so it must be okay, but, Christ lived under the Law in a culture far removed from our own.

( So is bestiality OK then? There is no NT directive)

Sure there is. All sexual sin is forbidden. Doesn't have to explicitly state it for us to know that falls into sexual sin.

So instead of trying to find parallels to Old Testament principles, it is my own opinion we should strive to be the separated people we are. We are separated from the World, and we are even separated from those who lived under Law. So lets strive to live like that.

The OP mentioned a desire for total prohibition, which would be fantastic...for us,

( Not Biblical, but man made, see Verse above)

And you abuse the text above to support the use of alcohol.

Just give me one good reason you or anyone else should use alcohol, and why it is that somehow your mind is not altered when you do.

but not for the world. The reason is because that is a apart of their existence. Not ours.


God bless.

Guess you agreed with this.


God bless.

 

[Ransom]

I use to be a drunk and drug addict. God has taken this tradition of man out of my life.

And here we get to the meat of the matter.

You regard your weaknesses as a law for everyone else.

 

[Twisted]

You regard your weaknesses as a law for everyone else.

That is basically what the lawyer who grilled me on the stand when I was called for jury duty for a DUI.

Only 2 of us didn't drink.  It was interesting.  I wasn't selected.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

I use to be a drunk and drug addict. God has taken this tradition of man out of my life.

And here we get to the meat of the matter.

You regard your weaknesses as a law for everyone else.

It's a false argument. The statement was meant to show that the "tradition" I am accused of is non-existent. The "tradition" I use to have no longer exists, and that "tradition" aligns better with the world than what Christians do.

I do not, as I have already said, tell people they cannot drink alcohol, I simply state it is my view Scripture makes it clear that it isn't something Christians should do. I would also tell people they can eat pork but would advise against having bacon with every meal.

The argument that you are implying is that some Christians can control their alcohol intake and some cannot, which is absurd...seeing alcohol inhibits self control. Indulging is better likened to testing God, kind of a "well prove temperance is a fruit of the Spirit."

Like I said, it's like saying "Since love is a fruit of the Spirit...I can hate my neighbor just a little bit, as long as I don't do it too much."


God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

You regard your weaknesses as a law for everyone else.

That is basically what the lawyer who grilled me on the stand when I was called for jury duty for a DUI.

Only 2 of us didn't drink.  It was interesting.  I wasn't selected.

And the primary reason was that you just didn't fit in with the "norm." That is an evidence of separation in my view.

It is a bad reason to deny jury duty, though, because we assume most jurors in a murder case don't murder, but are still selected.


God bless.

 

[bgwilkinson]

I use to be a drunk and drug addict. God has taken this tradition of man out of my life.

And here we get to the meat of the matter.

You regard your weaknesses as a law for everyone else.

It's a false argument. The statement was meant to show that the "tradition" I am accused of is non-existent. The "tradition" I use to have no longer exists, and that "tradition" aligns better with the world than what Christians do.

I do not, as I have already said, tell people they cannot drink alcohol, I simply state it is my view Scripture makes it clear that it isn't something Christians should do. I would also tell people they can eat pork but would advise against having bacon with every meal.

The argument that you are implying is that some Christians can control their alcohol intake and some cannot, which is absurd...seeing alcohol inhibits self control. Indulging is better likened to testing God, kind of a "well prove temperance is a fruit of the Spirit."

Like I said, it's like saying "Since love is a fruit of the Spirit...I can hate my neighbor just a little bit, as long as I don't do it too much."


God bless.

The standard for pastors is clear.

1Ti 3:3  Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; (Modern King James Version)

The pastor is to have self control in regard to alcohol consumption.

The standard for deacons is equally clear.

1Ti 3:8  Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; (Modern King James Version)

The deacon is likewise to exercise self control regarding alcohol consumption but can consume more than the pastor.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

The standard for pastors is clear.

1Ti 3:3  Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; (Modern King James Version)

The pastor is to have self control in regard to alcohol consumption.

The standard for deacons is equally clear.

1Ti 3:8  Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; (Modern King James Version)

The deacon is likewise to exercise self control regarding alcohol consumption but can consume more than the pastor.

So the question that would arise from this would be how you conclude the differing standards for Pastors and Deacons, and conclude the Deacon "can drink more than the Pastor."

Is that to say that the Deacon can get a little drunker than the Pastor?

How exactly does one "exercise self control regarding alcohol consumption?"

Who decides when one is drunk and has lost control of their faculties? Is that one beer for the Pastor and two for the deacons? Two beers for the Pastor and three for the deacons?

Question: will someone here tell me, among those defending the Christian's "right" to drink...

...exactly why one would drink alcohol? What reasons would be given?

Another question I would pose is, if it is okay for Christians to drink alcohol...how about marijuana? That is used for medicinal purposes, supposedly. Anyone think marijuana in moderation is okay as well? If so, why? If not...why?

God bless.

 

[prophet]

But, but, but if the KJV is the only correct version of the Bible  doesn't say what it means and mean what it says right there in plain English that a 6th grader can understand? It does as long as it says what you need it to say.
Jubal Sackett

I agree.  I do think that wine can be fermented or unfermented in scripture, but strong drink is always alcoholic.  Wine that makes the heart merry is alcoholic.  His exegesis is  basically, "if it says wine in a good way, unfermented.  Wine in a bad way, fermented."

You are correct, concerning "strong drink".

BTW, beer and other drinks with a sub average ABV (alc%) aren't really strong drink.
To this day, in English, non-alcoholic drinks are called "soft drinks".
Liquor is called "hard liquor".

"Strong drink" is absolutely a reference to alcohol

Sent from my C6730 using Tapatalk

 

[cpizzle]

"Question: will someone here tell me, among those defending the Christian's "right" to drink...

...exactly why one would drink alcohol? What reasons would be given?"

This is where we mess up.  If I say it isn't always sinful, then I am looked at as promoting it.

I think drinking is dangerous, destructive, annoying, unnecessary, ect....  I don't think it is universally sinful according to the Bible.  Most pastors think that the "end justifies the means."  Thus, I can preach what the Bible doesn't say if I get the "fair showing in the flesh" that I desire.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

"Question: will someone here tell me, among those defending the Christian's "right" to drink...

...exactly why one would drink alcohol? What reasons would be given?"

This is where we mess up.  If I say it isn't always sinful, then I am looked at as promoting it.

Not necessarily. But, I do think giving the nod to drinking alcohol and ignoring that alcohol inhibits self control (which is something desired in those in positions of leadership) is loading the gun for some people.

And I see no-one answered my question.

The fact is this: alcohol use is primarily for the purpose of altering the mind. That is the result, and it is contrary to how Christians are expected to live.

I think drinking is dangerous, destructive, annoying, unnecessary, ect....  I don't think it is universally sinful according to the Bible. 

Neither do I, when it comes to the world. But that is the point I tried to make originally, that there are two classes in this world, those separated unto God, and those who are not. And if leadership is warned about alcohol, and it excludes one from leadership if they indulge, why wouldn't we think this standard should apply to all of us?


Again, what reasons would you, or anyone else give to justify alcohol use?

Most pastors think that the "end justifies the means." 

Not sure I would say most Pastors, but, I will agree there is some shoddy handling of the Word.

Thus, I can preach what the Bible doesn't say if I get the "fair showing in the flesh" that I desire.

But the point I am trying to make is that I do see that Scripture teaches against alcohol use. I think this is explicit as well as implicit.

We have a responsibility to maintain self control, and there is a conflict with achieving this and indulging in alcohol. If one argues "I don't drink enough to alter my mind," first, I would question that, and second...why do you drink it then? Because it tastes good? There are plenty of beverages out there that taste better and do not cost as much.

I also asked about marijuana. Will someone here tell me if it is okay for Christians to indulge in marijuana, if done so in "moderation?"


God bless.

 

[cpizzle]

"I also asked about marijuana. Will someone here tell me if it is okay for Christians to indulge in marijuana, if done so in "moderation?"

In the case of marijuana, which is not addressed in scripture, we have to use Bible principals.  We have to look at why we want to do it?  Is it to escape reality?  Is it to "fit in with the world?"  Is it to find a solution to hopelessness and despair?  Or is it just used because you like the way it makes you feel?

We have to look at what it does to our testimonies.  It might be lawful, but is it expedient?

We have to ask if there are better options that don't carry the same negative effects, lead to addiction, or hurt the cause of Christ.

Are we turning to a narcotic when we could turn to the Holy Spirit?  Does this show a lack of faith in God?

After we have addressed these questions (and more that I haven't listed), we ask the Holy Ghost if he approves.  If he says no, then we don't use it as a matter of personal conviction.

If a "Spiritual" person truly believes that they can enjoy recreational marijuana and glorify God for his natural gift, then I can't tell them they are sinning.  I have a personal conviction against it and would encourage everyone to "just say no", but I can't judge another persons liberty based on my own conscious.

Remember, things can be bad ideas with no redeeming value to them, and still not be sinful. 

Going to Disney World, eating potato chips, and driving a motorcycle are all questionable things.  They waste money, damage the body, and/or are dangerous with a strong likelihood of doing damage to the "temple of the Holy Ghost," but we don't consider them sinful. 

 

[S.T.Ranger]

"I also asked about marijuana. Will someone here tell me if it is okay for Christians to indulge in marijuana, if done so in "moderation?"

In the case of marijuana, which is not addressed in scripture, we have to use Bible principals.  We have to look at why we want to do it?  Is it to escape reality?  Is it to "fit in with the world?"  Is it to find a solution to hopelessness and despair?  Or is it just used because you like the way it makes you feel?

We have to look at what it does to our testimonies.  It might be lawful, but is it expedient?

We have to ask if there are better options that don't carry the same negative effects, lead to addiction, or hurt the cause of Christ.

Are we turning to a narcotic when we could turn to the Holy Spirit?  Does this show a lack of faith in God?

So as long as we don't use a narcotic to alter our state of mind we are okay?

The same result, an altered state of mind, is produced by both drugs and alcohol.

You ask great questions here, all of which I see as applicable to alcohol use.

After we have addressed these questions (and more that I haven't listed), we ask the Holy Ghost if he approves.  If he says no, then we don't use it as a matter of personal conviction.

Again we go back to my original point: using a substance that inhibits a directive of God conflicts to the point where we cannot justify it.

We know why people use marijuana, and it is primarily to alter the mind.

If a "Spiritual" person truly believes that they can enjoy recreational marijuana and glorify God for his natural gift, then I can't tell them they are sinning. 

Well, the "spiritual" people of numerous false religions who used drugs to "commune with gods" may have sworn off drug use if they had been able to have Communion with God through salvation in Christ.

I have a personal conviction against it and would encourage everyone to "just say no", but I can't judge another persons liberty based on my own conscious.

I see no liberty among Christians to alter their minds. To relinquish self control. To nullify the control of God in our lives.

Remember, things can be bad ideas with no redeeming value to them, and still not be sinful. 

I think most would agree smoking pot is a sin, lol.

Going to Disney World, eating potato chips, and driving a motorcycle are all questionable things.

Now wait a minute, what do you have against potato chips...

They waste money, damage the body, and/or are dangerous with a strong likelihood of doing damage to the "temple of the Holy Ghost," but we don't consider them sinful.

Motorcycles could be viewed as a cheaper mode of transport, which one could argue rightly indicates one is being a good steward of their resources. As far as being dangerous, this is true, but, automobiles are equally dangerous, so we would have to call into question all modes of transport in order to vilify motorcycles. Flying is said to be much safer, but we would not go out and by one, lol.

Going to Disneyland, well, not sure I think God is against vacations.

Potato Chips, well...far less dangerous in moderation than alcohol. And there is no chance potato chips, motorcycles, or going to Disneyland is going to alter our minds or damage our bodies of themselves. So if damaging the "Temple of God" is a consideration, then we now have another reason not to indulge in alcohol. There is a reason why drinking alcohol and driving is prohibited by Law, whether it is on a motorcycle or in a car. While there is a level of intoxication the Law defines as the standard for drunkenness, again I would ask, why would one even bother if they are seeking not to be intoxicated.

Which still leaves the question, "What reasons would one give for indulging in alcohol" left unanswered.

Thanks for responding about Marijuana, though I disagree with your view about it. The physical impact of marijuana on the brain is enough for us to know that God would not approve. he has made many statements concerning those who are not using their heads, lol, that we might see a conflict between intentional dumbing down.


God bless.

 

[subllibrm]

From what I understand some people like the taste of various alcoholic beverages. I don't but I do like chocolate and will indulge in that on occasion.

 

[cpizzle]

"I see no liberty among Christians to alter their minds. To relinquish self control. To nullify the control of God in our lives."

Alcohol alters the mind and it is oftentimes allowed in scripture.  Thus, altering the mind cannot be used as a reason to declare something a sin.

As far as Disney, Chips, and Motorcycles go, the point was to show that they can be damaging, dangerous, and wasteful with no redeeming value to them.  Disney is for fun.  Chips are only eaten because we like the taste.  Motorcycles can end your life quickly when a car could be safer.  We do them because we like them despite the risks.  We don't consider them sins though. 

I think alcohol and drug use are more dangerous, more damaging, and more wasteful than Disney and Frito Lay, but the same standards still apply.  I don't get to choose where we draw the line.  I think stoners are annoying and I can't stand the drug culture, but that is not my place to rewrite scripture.  Can we not simply influence people to make better decisions without using the Bible as a club by telling people it says what it doesn't say?