Can someone check this in the Hyles Church Manual...

[Fresh Air]

The real problem is the lack of sound Biblical preaching in IFBx  churches -- they focus on works and tend to keep everyone working.  The people tend to be good at soul-winning, and tithing, and attending church, but don't know much about anything else, and are not qualified to be able to identify a spiritual man who can be pastor.

Exactly. Got a chapter on this in my next book.

 

[qwerty]

Did not mean to post this and run, have been busy and not had the opportunity to comment.

I think Prophet is right on about this, and look forward to Tom's book/chapter.  Unfortunately this is a symptom of IFBdom that is aggravating.  I saw it happen recently at a church in Michigan where a pastor was "retiring" and pushing his son to assume the helm.  When the son did not get the vote, the pastor un-retired and assumed the role of Pastor.

The church is the Lord's,  then the congregants...at the bottom of the list is Pastor.; He leads by serving, not by ownership.  To think of the church as "your own" reveals what your church is based on, who it follows, and who it worships.  I commend those Pastors (there are many) that are humble in their role, put God first, and serve their congregants despite what has been shown by their IFB leaders, their fellow Pastors, and those that are idolized in their circles.

 

[Bruh]

I appreciate from a distance the ministry of both Ashcrafts, senior and junior.

...but this is Catholic not Baptist. It doesn't invalidate decades worth of good ministry. It doesn't make either of these men evil. Far from it. But neither is it in any way acceptable.

Do you have an acceptable way?

What is being done here is becoming common among a certain stripe of IFB churches (I don't like it, but  they challenge me to show that voting is Biblical).  The attitude seems to be that the church belongs to the pastor. 

Bob Gray in Texas told the church that it was God's will for him to resign, but that he would only resign if they voted his son as the pastor.

In another church, the outgoing pastor picked his  successor, after many meetings in secret, and then said that he believe that his successor was God's will, so a "YES" vote was to vote for him and for God's will, and a "NO" vote was voting against God.  In an effort to  force a unanimous vote, they refused a secret ballot, and said that only votes with names would be counted.

I'm sure there are others

Bob Gray never ceases to amaze me.

Why in the world would his son want to be pastor knowing the ONLY reason he got it was because DADDY says so. How can he as a man stand before the congregation with confidence?

I mean really, how can the congregation have respect for a man (the son) like this? There is no way I would be able to be a member there.

Again, no manhood, I feel sorry for there wives. I mean what's Jr. Gonna do? Tell the congregation to hire his son as pastor as well?



X-Files how can you attempt to learn from these men?  Smh

 

[bgwilkinson]

I appreciate from a distance the ministry of both Ashcrafts, senior and junior.

...but this is Catholic not Baptist. It doesn't invalidate decades worth of good ministry. It doesn't make either of these men evil. Far from it. But neither is it in any way acceptable.

Do you have an acceptable way?

What is being done here is becoming common among a certain stripe of IFB churches (I don't like it, but  they challenge me to show that voting is Biblical).  The attitude seems to be that the church belongs to the pastor. 

Bob Gray in Texas told the church that it was God's will for him to resign, but that he would only resign if they voted his son as the pastor.

In another church, the outgoing pastor picked his  successor, after many meetings in secret, and then said that he believe that his successor was God's will, so a "YES" vote was to vote for him and for God's will, and a "NO" vote was voting against God.  In an effort to  force a unanimous vote, they refused a secret ballot, and said that only votes with names would be counted.

I'm sure there are others

Bob Gray never ceases to amaze me.

Why in the world would his son want to be pastor knowing the ONLY reason he got it was because DADDY says so. How can he as a man stand before the congregation with confidence?

I mean really, how can the congregation have respect for a man (the son) like this? There is no way I would be able to be a member there.

Again, no manhood, I feel sorry for there wives. I mean what's Jr. Gonna do? Tell the congregation to hire his son as pastor as well?



X-Files how can you attempt to learn from these men?  Smh

All great examples of what not to do.

 

[BALAAM]

I appreciate from a distance the ministry of both Ashcrafts, senior and junior.

...but this is Catholic not Baptist. It doesn't invalidate decades worth of good ministry. It doesn't make either of these men evil. Far from it. But neither is it in any way acceptable.

Do you have an acceptable way?

What is being done here is becoming common among a certain stripe of IFB churches (I don't like it, but  they challenge me to show that voting is Biblical).  The attitude seems to be that the church belongs to the pastor. 

Bob Gray in Texas told the church that it was God's will for him to resign, but that he would only resign if they voted his son as the pastor.

In another church, the outgoing pastor picked his  successor, after many meetings in secret, and then said that he believe that his successor was God's will, so a "YES" vote was to vote for him and for God's will, and a "NO" vote was voting against God.  In an effort to  force a unanimous vote, they refused a secret ballot, and said that only votes with names would be counted.

I'm sure there are others

Bob Gray never ceases to amaze me.

Why in the world would his son want to be pastor knowing the ONLY reason he got it was because DADDY says so. How can he as a man stand before the congregation with confidence?

I mean really, how can the congregation have respect for a man (the son) like this? There is no way I would be able to be a member there.

Again, no manhood, I feel sorry for there wives. I mean what's Jr. Gonna do? Tell the congregation to hire his son as pastor as well?



X-Files how can you attempt to learn from these men?  Smh

I agree but you need to understand that Bob Gray thinks of himself as a prophet that can't be questioned or opposed. He thinks that his thoughts and words are as inspired as the Bible.

 

[IFB X-Files]

X-Files how can you attempt to learn from these men? 

What?  How did I get in the conversation?

Well, aside from my dashing good looks and charismatic personality......

 

[Bruh]

X-Files how can you attempt to learn from these men? 

What?  How did I get in the conversation?

Well, aside from my dashing good looks and charismatic personality......

I may be mistaken, I thought you took some courses with his on-line school?

 

[GeneFrenkle]

JS was chose the exact same way.

DH would have been if he wasn't already divorced.

No he wasn't.

I was there, were you?

We had a procedure.

The people voted (with their hearts and not God's Wisdom).

I was surprised that he was the first candidate fielded, since Jack Hyles had publicly "given up on him", and "replaced himself" as pastor.

No, we made a tragic mistake, but we weren't buffaloed like this.

Earnestly Contend

I wasn't.  "Proudly" part of the 4%.

 

[prophet]

JS was chose the exact same way.

DH would have been if he wasn't already divorced.

No he wasn't.

I was there, were you?

We had a procedure.

The people voted (with their hearts and not God's Wisdom).

I was surprised that he was the first candidate fielded, since Jack Hyles had publicly "given up on him", and "replaced himself" as pastor.

No, we made a tragic mistake, but we weren't buffaloed like this.

Earnestly Contend

I wasn't.  "Proudly" part of the 4%.

I wasn't exactly part of the constantly berated 4%.
I abstained from voting.
I stood there, in the hallway, with a sick child.
I was offered a balot.
I turned it down.
I knew they would vote for him.  I knew it was wrong.  I stood by in horror for the next several years.

One of the sure signs that it was a mistake, if you weren't listening to God, was the way he obsessed over you.

Thank You for your service to God.
I'm glad you have a backbone.

Earnestly Contend

 

[GeneFrenkle]

JS was chose the exact same way.

DH would have been if he wasn't already divorced.

No he wasn't.

I was there, were you?

We had a procedure.

The people voted (with their hearts and not God's Wisdom).

I was surprised that he was the first candidate fielded, since Jack Hyles had publicly "given up on him", and "replaced himself" as pastor.

No, we made a tragic mistake, but we weren't buffaloed like this.

Earnestly Contend

I wasn't.  "Proudly" part of the 4%.

I wasn't exactly part of the constantly berated 4%.
I abstained from voting.
I stood there, in the hallway, with a sick child.
I was offered a balot.
I turned it down.
I knew they would vote for him.  I knew it was wrong.  I stood by in horror for the next several years.

One of the sure signs that it was a mistake, if you weren't listening to God, was the way he obsessed over you.

Thank You for your service to God.
I'm glad you have a backbone.

Earnestly Contend

Um...wow.  Thank you.  I was only there another two years.  He was still fairly normal during that time.  I was hoping to get hired on but he told me that there was a hiring freeze.  But at the same time, I knew they were trying to hire one of my fellow graduates.

Should have seen it coming then.

 

[prophet]

JS was chose the exact same way.

DH would have been if he wasn't already divorced.

No he wasn't.

I was there, were you?

We had a procedure.

The people voted (with their hearts and not God's Wisdom).

I was surprised that he was the first candidate fielded, since Jack Hyles had publicly "given up on him", and "replaced himself" as pastor.

No, we made a tragic mistake, but we weren't buffaloed like this.

Earnestly Contend

I wasn't.  "Proudly" part of the 4%.

I wasn't exactly part of the constantly berated 4%.
I abstained from voting.
I stood there, in the hallway, with a sick child.
I was offered a balot.
I turned it down.
I knew they would vote for him.  I knew it was wrong.  I stood by in horror for the next several years.

One of the sure signs that it was a mistake, if you weren't listening to God, was the way he obsessed over you.

Thank You for your service to God.
I'm glad you have a backbone.

Earnestly Contend

Um...wow.  Thank you.  I was only there another two years.  He was still fairly normal during that time.  I was hoping to get hired on but he told me that there was a hiring freeze.  But at the same time, I knew they were trying to hire one of my fellow graduates.

Should have seen it coming then.

He could never let go of the terrible offense that the 4% committed against him.....
It was petty to the point of being painful to watch.
He mentioned it publicly, almost weekly.

He knew he was in over his head, but, like Rehaboam, he began to believe the hype.

C&B.

Earnestly Contend

 

[GeneFrenkle]

JS was chose the exact same way.

DH would have been if he wasn't already divorced.

No he wasn't.

I was there, were you?

We had a procedure.

The people voted (with their hearts and not God's Wisdom).

I was surprised that he was the first candidate fielded, since Jack Hyles had publicly "given up on him", and "replaced himself" as pastor.

No, we made a tragic mistake, but we weren't buffaloed like this.

Earnestly Contend

I wasn't.  "Proudly" part of the 4%.

I wasn't exactly part of the constantly berated 4%.
I abstained from voting.
I stood there, in the hallway, with a sick child.
I was offered a balot.
I turned it down.
I knew they would vote for him.  I knew it was wrong.  I stood by in horror for the next several years.

One of the sure signs that it was a mistake, if you weren't listening to God, was the way he obsessed over you.

Thank You for your service to God.
I'm glad you have a backbone.

Earnestly Contend

Um...wow.  Thank you.  I was only there another two years.  He was still fairly normal during that time.  I was hoping to get hired on but he told me that there was a hiring freeze.  But at the same time, I knew they were trying to hire one of my fellow graduates.

Should have seen it coming then.

He could never let go of the terrible offense that the 4% committed against him.....
It was petty to the point of being painful to watch.
He mentioned it publicly, almost weekly.

He knew he was in over his head, but, like Rehaboam, he began to believe the hype.

C&B.

Earnestly Contend

lol.  I didn't TELL him I was part of the 4%!! 

 

[prophet]

JS was chose the exact same way.

DH would have been if he wasn't already divorced.

No he wasn't.

I was there, were you?

We had a procedure.

The people voted (with their hearts and not God's Wisdom).

I was surprised that he was the first candidate fielded, since Jack Hyles had publicly "given up on him", and "replaced himself" as pastor.

No, we made a tragic mistake, but we weren't buffaloed like this.

Earnestly Contend

I wasn't.  "Proudly" part of the 4%.

I wasn't exactly part of the constantly berated 4%.
I abstained from voting.
I stood there, in the hallway, with a sick child.
I was offered a balot.
I turned it down.
I knew they would vote for him.  I knew it was wrong.  I stood by in horror for the next several years.

One of the sure signs that it was a mistake, if you weren't listening to God, was the way he obsessed over you.

Thank You for your service to God.
I'm glad you have a backbone.

Earnestly Contend

Um...wow.  Thank you.  I was only there another two years.  He was still fairly normal during that time.  I was hoping to get hired on but he told me that there was a hiring freeze.  But at the same time, I knew they were trying to hire one of my fellow graduates.

Should have seen it coming then.

He could never let go of the terrible offense that the 4% committed against him.....
It was petty to the point of being painful to watch.
He mentioned it publicly, almost weekly.

He knew he was in over his head, but, like Rehaboam, he began to believe the hype.

C&B.

Earnestly Contend

lol.  I didn't TELL him I was part of the 4%!! 

That wouldn't have gone well!

Lol

Earnestly Contend

 

[Walt]

JS was chose the exact same way.

DH would have been if he wasn't already divorced.

No he wasn't.

I was there, were you?

We had a procedure.

The people voted (with their hearts and not God's Wisdom).

I was surprised that he was the first candidate fielded, since Jack Hyles had publicly "given up on him", and "replaced himself" as pastor.

No, we made a tragic mistake, but we weren't buffaloed like this.

Earnestly Contend

I wasn't.  "Proudly" part of the 4%.

I wasn't exactly part of the constantly berated 4%.
I abstained from voting.
I stood there, in the hallway, with a sick child.
I was offered a balot.
I turned it down.
I knew they would vote for him.  I knew it was wrong.  I stood by in horror for the next several years.

One of the sure signs that it was a mistake, if you weren't listening to God, was the way he obsessed over you.

Thank You for your service to God.
I'm glad you have a backbone.

Earnestly Contend

Um...wow.  Thank you.  I was only there another two years.  He was still fairly normal during that time.  I was hoping to get hired on but he told me that there was a hiring freeze.  But at the same time, I knew they were trying to hire one of my fellow graduates.

Should have seen it coming then.

He could never let go of the terrible offense that the 4% committed against him.....
It was petty to the point of being painful to watch.
He mentioned it publicly, almost weekly.

He knew he was in over his head, but, like Rehaboam, he began to believe the hype.

C&B.

Earnestly Contend

lol.  I didn't TELL him I was part of the 4%!! 

Wouldn't have worked in the church I referenced earlier - in an attempt to force a unanimous vote, only signed ballots were counted.  As I remember, even with all that heavy manipulation, some people still voted "no"; I was told that the vote wasn't unanimous, but I don't know what happened to the ones who voted "no".

 

[TidesofTruth]

JS was chose the exact same way.

DH would have been if he wasn't already divorced.

No he wasn't.

I was there, were you?

We had a procedure.

The people voted (with their hearts and not God's Wisdom).

I was surprised that he was the first candidate fielded, since Jack Hyles had publicly "given up on him", and "replaced himself" as pastor.

No, we made a tragic mistake, but we weren't buffaloed like this.

Earnestly Contend

I wasn't.  "Proudly" part of the 4%.

I wasn't exactly part of the constantly berated 4%.
I abstained from voting.
I stood there, in the hallway, with a sick child.
I was offered a balot.
I turned it down.
I knew they would vote for him.  I knew it was wrong.  I stood by in horror for the next several years.

One of the sure signs that it was a mistake, if you weren't listening to God, was the way he obsessed over you.

Thank You for your service to God.
I'm glad you have a backbone.

Earnestly Contend

Um...wow.  Thank you.  I was only there another two years.  He was still fairly normal during that time.  I was hoping to get hired on but he told me that there was a hiring freeze.  But at the same time, I knew they were trying to hire one of my fellow graduates.

Should have seen it coming then.

He could never let go of the terrible offense that the 4% committed against him.....
It was petty to the point of being painful to watch.
He mentioned it publicly, almost weekly.

He knew he was in over his head, but, like Rehaboam, he began to believe the hype.

C&B.

Earnestly Contend

lol.  I didn't TELL him I was part of the 4%!! 

I did tell him I was part of the 4%. 

 

[prophet]

JS was chose the exact same way.

DH would have been if he wasn't already divorced.

No he wasn't.

I was there, were you?

We had a procedure.

The people voted (with their hearts and not God's Wisdom).

I was surprised that he was the first candidate fielded, since Jack Hyles had publicly "given up on him", and "replaced himself" as pastor.

No, we made a tragic mistake, but we weren't buffaloed like this.

Earnestly Contend

I wasn't.  "Proudly" part of the 4%.

I wasn't exactly part of the constantly berated 4%.
I abstained from voting.
I stood there, in the hallway, with a sick child.
I was offered a balot.
I turned it down.
I knew they would vote for him.  I knew it was wrong.  I stood by in horror for the next several years.

One of the sure signs that it was a mistake, if you weren't listening to God, was the way he obsessed over you.

Thank You for your service to God.
I'm glad you have a backbone.

Earnestly Contend

Um...wow.  Thank you.  I was only there another two years.  He was still fairly normal during that time.  I was hoping to get hired on but he told me that there was a hiring freeze.  But at the same time, I knew they were trying to hire one of my fellow graduates.

Should have seen it coming then.

He could never let go of the terrible offense that the 4% committed against him.....
It was petty to the point of being painful to watch.
He mentioned it publicly, almost weekly.

He knew he was in over his head, but, like Rehaboam, he began to believe the hype.

C&B.

Earnestly Contend

lol.  I didn't TELL him I was part of the 4%!! 

I did tell him I was part of the 4%. 

How did that go?

Sometimes he reacted in a very volatile manner, or held a grudge for years?

Did you face any negative feedback?

Earnestly Contend

 

[TidesofTruth]

JS was chose the exact same way.

DH would have been if he wasn't already divorced.

No he wasn't.

I was there, were you?

We had a procedure.

The people voted (with their hearts and not God's Wisdom).

I was surprised that he was the first candidate fielded, since Jack Hyles had publicly "given up on him", and "replaced himself" as pastor.

No, we made a tragic mistake, but we weren't buffaloed like this.

Earnestly Contend

I wasn't.  "Proudly" part of the 4%.

I wasn't exactly part of the constantly berated 4%.
I abstained from voting.
I stood there, in the hallway, with a sick child.
I was offered a balot.
I turned it down.
I knew they would vote for him.  I knew it was wrong.  I stood by in horror for the next several years.

One of the sure signs that it was a mistake, if you weren't listening to God, was the way he obsessed over you.

Thank You for your service to God.
I'm glad you have a backbone.

Earnestly Contend

Um...wow.  Thank you.  I was only there another two years.  He was still fairly normal during that time.  I was hoping to get hired on but he told me that there was a hiring freeze.  But at the same time, I knew they were trying to hire one of my fellow graduates.

Should have seen it coming then.

He could never let go of the terrible offense that the 4% committed against him.....
It was petty to the point of being painful to watch.
He mentioned it publicly, almost weekly.

He knew he was in over his head, but, like Rehaboam, he began to believe the hype.

C&B.

Earnestly Contend

lol.  I didn't TELL him I was part of the 4%!! 

I did tell him I was part of the 4%. 

How did that go?

Sometimes he reacted in a very volatile manner, or held a grudge for years?

Did you face any negative feedback?

Earnestly Contend

Not staff nor deacon, I can only look back on it and figure there was a grudge but he was kind to my face.  I rather people be transparent with me.

 

[BALAAM]

I did not personally vote for or against schaap. I simply did not vote. Do not remember why, but I would not have voted for him regardless. And, I did not have any sick kids at the time. It may have been on a day or night when I was working?  Don't know but I thought he was kind of whacked before this came about. I really had some serious reservations about jh long before this. Nothing bad mind you but just serious disappointments between what I had been led to believe about the man and what I actually experienced. Once again, nothing bad or immoral, just total disappointment.

 

[Matthew1323]

I did not personally vote for or against schaap. I simply did not vote. Do not remember why, but I would not have voted for him regardless. And, I did not have any sick kids at the time. It may have been on a day or night when I was working?  Don't know but I thought he was kind of whacked before this came about. I really had some serious reservations about jh long before this. Nothing bad mind you but just serious disappointments between what I had been led to believe about the man and what I actually experienced. Once again, nothing bad or immoral, just total disappointment.

I agree with your take on the situation. I guess that I voted no for JH and the direction of the ministry there when we left for good in 1995. Yes, I had serious concerns whether I wanted to rear our children in the environment that he had established.

 

[sword]

JS was chose the exact same way.

DH would have been if he wasn't already divorced.

No he wasn't.

I was there, were you?

We had a procedure.

The people voted (with their hearts and not God's Wisdom).

I was surprised that he was the first candidate fielded, since Jack Hyles had publicly "given up on him", and "replaced himself" as pastor.

No, we made a tragic mistake, but we weren't buffaloed like this.

Earnestly Contend

I wasn't.  "Proudly" part of the 4%.

I wasn't exactly part of the constantly berated 4%.
I abstained from voting.
I stood there, in the hallway, with a sick child.
I was offered a balot.
I turned it down.
I knew they would vote for him.  I knew it was wrong.  I stood by in horror for the next several years.

One of the sure signs that it was a mistake, if you weren't listening to God, was the way he obsessed over you.

Thank You for your service to God.
I'm glad you have a backbone.

Earnestly Contend

Um...wow.  Thank you.  I was only there another two years.  He was still fairly normal during that time.  I was hoping to get hired on but he told me that there was a hiring freeze.  But at the same time, I knew they were trying to hire one of my fellow graduates.

Should have seen it coming then.

He could never let go of the terrible offense that the 4% committed against him.....
It was petty to the point of being painful to watch.
He mentioned it publicly, almost weekly.

He knew he was in over his head, but, like Rehaboam, he began to believe the hype.

C&B.

Earnestly Contend

lol.  I didn't TELL him I was part of the 4%!! 

I did tell him I was part of the 4%. 

I'm surprised he did not attempt to do an on the spot Exorcism.

What was his response, was any profanity used?