Coming out as an Agnostic

[FSSL]

Why not?  What have I done so bad that I don't deserve another breath? 

Why do you avoid my question?  Why is this God so cruel, as to arrange this world so that some people are destined to spend an eternity in a lake of fire, suffering unimaginable torture after they die?

Do you not see how absurd this doctrine is?

I did answer your question. You view God in reverse.

That is why your point is absurd. NO ONE deserves Heaven. We ALL deserve Hell. The fact that some make it to Heaven is all because of God?s mercy.

You really need to read your Bible.

 

[Route_70]

NO ONE deserves Heaven. We ALL deserve Hell.

That is absurd, Bible or not.

Nevertheless, I challenge you to show me this doctrine in the Bible.

 

[FSSL]

It is a simple doctrine found throughout Scripture.

Calvinist or not... everyone believes we are all headed and deserving of Hell.

Romans 3.10ff

Read it and repent


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[Twisted]

It is a simple doctrine found throughout Scripture.

Calvinist or not... everyone believes we are all headed and deserving of Hell.

Romans 3.10ff

Read it and repent

C'MON!!  PREACH!

 

[Smellin Coffee]

The agnostics and atheists on this forum are ONLY giving Joseph "benefits of doubt." Not ONE has expressed concern for the wife.

Why is agnosticism and atheism so cruel?

Because she is not the one being attacked by the so-called Christians on this forum: he is.

 

[FSSL]

Nope. Agnostics on this thread are cruel.

How are we attacking a person by challenging them to humble themselves before their wife and to ask for her forgiveness while he is rejecting everything he promised her?

Your use of the term of ?attack? is a curious one and lacks self awareness


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[LongGone]

Nope. Agnostics on this thread are cruel.

How are we attacking a person by challenging them to humble themselves before their wife and to ask for her forgiveness while he is rejecting everything he promised her?

Your use of the term of ?attack? is a curious one and lacks self awareness


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I go back to what if they had both been agnostics and he became a born again Christian. Would you have him humble himself and ask forgiveness while he is rejecting everything they believed jointly?

If he had been Roman Catholic and he became a born again a born again Christian then would you have him humble himself and ask forgiveness while he is rejecting everything he promised her.  Would you have him go to a priest to help him explain to his wife?

I actually think the idea of getting professional help to work though the marriage issues is solid but it would need to be a neutral adviser and not a fundamental preacher.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Nope. Agnostics on this thread are cruel.

How are we attacking a person by challenging them to humble themselves before their wife and to ask for her forgiveness while he is rejecting everything he promised her?

Your use of the term of ?attack? is a curious one and lacks self awareness


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I go back to what if they had both been agnostics and he became a born again Christian. Would you have him humble himself and ask forgiveness while he is rejecting everything they believed jointly?

If he had been Roman Catholic and he became a born again a born again Christian then would you have him humble himself and ask forgiveness while he is rejecting everything he promised her.  Would you have him go to a priest to help him explain to his wife?

I actually think the idea of getting professional help to work though the marriage issues is solid but it would need to be a neutral adviser and not a fundamental preacher.

lol at "neutral advisor" (especially juxtaposed with evangelical Christian counsel).

As to the other parts of your question, I don't know how the concept of "forgiveness" is specifically being used here, but a little humility always helps.  A soft answer turneth away wrath.  At this point Joseph hasn't shown much propensity to approach this issue with his wife in contrition and humility.

 

[biscuit1953]

NO ONE deserves Heaven. We ALL deserve Hell.

That is absurd, Bible or not.

Nevertheless, I challenge you to show me this doctrine in the Bible.

It is very easy to be an atheist when you?re successful. You have worked your way from Oklahoma welfare to be one of the powerful men in your part of your country. One of the most powerful men in the state of Oklahoma in relation to political. It?s very easy to be an atheist when you?ve done that. Man can sit back and say I don?t need God. What is God. But it is difficult to be an atheist if you are laying on your death bed because you begin to think, what if these people (Christians) are right. ? Dr. Donald Whitaker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVmNf-KtVs0

Route I won't argue with you about hell but some day on your death bed you will look back on the opportunity you threw away.  It won't matter if you think God is unjust. 

 

[Route_70]

Route I won't argue with you about hell but some day on your death bed you will look back on the opportunity you threw away.  It won't matter if you think God is unjust.

And it just thrills you to no end -- the thought of me finding out that you were right and I was wrong.

 

[Gringo]

Joseph,


If you think these people have been harsh, just "youtube" what a Muslim says when you call him on his beliefs!

I remember one time a person telling me that it didn't matter to her AS MUCH what I did as it mattered to her what I no longer believed (think about that for a moment). People who believe staunchly - no matter the religion - take their beliefs seriously and it isn't pleasant to be told that you don't believe like them.

I don't see this situation as being about your wife and what you have done to HER. I see this as being about you and YOUR loss of belief. I don't believe you owe your wife an apology - because you've done nothing to her. But if you feel you need to tell your wife about this,

I was just wondering if you had spoken to your wife yet and how it went.

I wish you the best.


Gringo

 

[Joseph007]

If this were an automobile sales forum and I posted that I was looking for a 2012 - 2016 Ford F150 double cab with no more than 100,000 miles and someone offered me a 2009 Dodge Ram single cab with 190,000 miles I would not be interested.  My original post entailed exactly what I was looking for. Some have responded on this thread with reasonable responses.  Some have responded directly via personal message with helpful information or web links. I am grateful for the responses because no one had to respond. I posted on this forum because I figured like me there had to be at least a few people who follow this forum for entertainment purposes who also no longer believe the Bible to be the Word of God and could help me with the situation I find myself in. I did not come to this conclusion because I wanted to. To be honest, I'm actually surprised myself with where I am in regards to spirituality and religion. But, here I am nonetheless. When someone offers the advice to pray, ask forgiveness, seek the counsel of a wise pastor, etc they are basing this advice off their belief in the Bible being the Word of an all knowing God. I get that but what some of you don't get is I don't believe that so what good would any of that advice do me?  I have read and studied the Bible extensively. As much and maybe more than some of you on here posting advice. Would you take advice from someone who read to you from the Koran, Book of Mormon, or some other "holy" book? Of course not.
The Bible says "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", Rom 10:17.  Well, exactly the opposite happened to me.  The more I read and studied the Bible the less believable it became.  I actually wrote out some of the reasons I no longer believe which includes contradictions, Bible "science", the flood account (that could be a book itself), biblical "morality" (God ordering the kidnapping and rape of women, etc) and it totaled 28 pages so far.  And I'm not even through. Just because a "wise pastor" would point out some inspiring verses from Psalms to encourage me during counseling I would not be able to forget that those verses would be written within the same pages as those that condone slavery, torture, kidnapping, rape and other atrocities.
So no, FSSL, I'm not interested in your 1973 Ford Pinto. Hence the reply, "Lol. No."

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[FSSL]

We understand. You already proved your impunity toward your wife.

Agnostics are in the business of helping fools become fools at the expense of other people.

We don?t need a silly non-sequitor analogy to further understand how much a biblical fool you have become.

 

[Gringo]

If this were an automobile sales forum and I posted that I was looking for a 2012 - 2016 Ford F150 double cab with no more than 100,000 miles and someone offered me a 2009 Dodge Ram single cab with 190,000 miles I would not be interested.  My original post entailed exactly what I was looking for. Some have responded on this thread with reasonable responses.  Some have responded directly via personal message with helpful information or web links. I am grateful for the responses because no one had to respond. I posted on this forum because I figured like me there had to be at least a few people who follow this forum for entertainment purposes who also no longer believe the Bible to be the Word of God and could help me with the situation I find myself in. I did not come to this conclusion because I wanted to. To be honest, I'm actually surprised myself with where I am in regards to spirituality and religion. But, here I am nonetheless. When someone offers the advice to pray, ask forgiveness, seek the counsel of a wise pastor, etc they are basing this advice off their belief in the Bible being the Word of an all knowing God. I get that but what some of you don't get is I don't believe that so what good would any of that advice do me?  I have read and studied the Bible extensively. As much and maybe more than some of you on here posting advice. Would you take advice from someone who read to you from the Koran, Book of Mormon, or some other "holy" book? Of course not.
The Bible says "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", Rom 10:17.  Well, exactly the opposite happened to me.  The more I read and studied the Bible the less believable it became.  I actually wrote out some of the reasons I no longer believe which includes contradictions, Bible "science", the flood account (that could be a book itself), biblical "morality" (God ordering the kidnapping and rape of women, etc) and it totaled 28 pages so far.  And I'm not even through. Just because a "wise pastor" would point out some inspiring verses from Psalms to encourage me during counseling I would not be able to forget that those verses would be written within the same pages as those that condone slavery, torture, kidnapping, rape and other atrocities.
So no, FSSL, I'm not interested in your 1973 Ford Pinto. Hence the reply, "Lol. No."

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Same for me.  Message and tell me how it went with your wife.

 

[ALAYMAN]

If this were an automobile sales forum and I posted that I was looking for a 2012 - 2016 Ford F150 double cab with no more than 100,000 miles and someone offered me a 2009 Dodge Ram single cab with 190,000 miles I would not be interested.  My original post entailed exactly what I was looking for. Some have responded on this thread with reasonable responses.  Some have responded directly via personal message with helpful information or web links. I am grateful for the responses because no one had to respond. I posted on this forum because I figured like me there had to be at least a few people who follow this forum for entertainment purposes who also no longer believe the Bible to be the Word of God and could help me with the situation I find myself in. I did not come to this conclusion because I wanted to. To be honest, I'm actually surprised myself with where I am in regards to spirituality and religion. But, here I am nonetheless. When someone offers the advice to pray, ask forgiveness, seek the counsel of a wise pastor, etc they are basing this advice off their belief in the Bible being the Word of an all knowing God. I get that but what some of you don't get is I don't believe that so what good would any of that advice do me?  I have read and studied the Bible extensively. As much and maybe more than some of you on here posting advice. Would you take advice from someone who read to you from the Koran, Book of Mormon, or some other "holy" book? Of course not.
The Bible says "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", Rom 10:17.  Well, exactly the opposite happened to me.  The more I read and studied the Bible the less believable it became.  I actually wrote out some of the reasons I no longer believe which includes contradictions, Bible "science", the flood account (that could be a book itself), biblical "morality" (God ordering the kidnapping and rape of women, etc) and it totaled 28 pages so far.  And I'm not even through. Just because a "wise pastor" would point out some inspiring verses from Psalms to encourage me during counseling I would not be able to forget that those verses would be written within the same pages as those that condone slavery, torture, kidnapping, rape and other atrocities.
So no, FSSL, I'm not interested in your 1973 Ford Pinto. Hence the reply, "Lol. No."

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I am a Radiochemist with a  secular Chemistry degree and a graduate Master of Science.  I was not raised in a Christian home nor was I indoctrinated into Christianity but came to Christ as an adult.  Coming to terms with the Scriptures and the difficult parts is not a matter of intellect, but a matter of the individual's  moral will.  There are plenty of people on either side of the intellectual spectrum that come to differing conclusions as to the veracity of Scriptures, so your underlying implication of inconsistencies is without legitimate basis.  I'd wager a guess that in all of your pursuit and studies of Scriptures once you began to doubt that you never attempted to view materials written from intellectually sound apologetic defenders of the faith (not talking about Sword of the Lord or Revival Fires articles and the like here).  You have not interacted with any significance on the evangelical side of the ledger here but rather those that already tell you what you want to believe about the Bible, and I'd bet that is the pattern of your endeavors in the recent past since you've lost your faith.  It's a form of confirmation bias.

If you're interested in looking at both sides of the apologetic coin with sincerity I'd be glad to give you some resources.  Just say the word.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Coming to terms with the Scriptures and the difficult parts is not a matter of intellect, but a matter of the individual's  moral will. 

I disagree. I believe my moral compass is one of the many things that has led me away from biblical inerrancy. If you had sit it was a matter of the individual's faith instead of moral will, I would have agreed with you.

There are plenty of people on either side of the intellectual spectrum that come to differing conclusions as to the veracity of Scriptures, so your underlying implication of inconsistencies is without legitimate basis.  I'd wager a guess that in all of your pursuit and studies of Scriptures once you began to doubt that you never attempted to view materials written from intellectually sound apologetic defenders of the faith (not talking about Sword of the Lord or Revival Fires articles and the like here).  You have not interacted with any significance on the evangelical side of the ledger here but rather those that already tell you what you want to believe about the Bible, and I'd bet that is the pattern of your endeavors in the recent past since you've lost your faith.  It's a form of confirmation bias.

I can't speak for Joseph, but there are those of us who HAVE spoken with "apologetic defenders", even after decades of personal apologetic study and even teaching apologetics to others, yet come to the other side when looking for what the truth about God really is.

What we are discussing is a matter of personal choice, a doctrine (or lack thereof) in which one has faith. This is not about morality but rather perspective and choice.

And for folks like FSSL who believe he should "consider his wife" should understand if he does not come to terms of agreement with Evangelicalism, to pretend he does is living a life of hypocrisy towards his wife. So there is that issue to consider as well.

 

[Gringo]

If this were an automobile sales forum and I posted that I was looking for a 2012 - 2016 Ford F150 double cab with no more than 100,000 miles and someone offered me a 2009 Dodge Ram single cab with 190,000 miles I would not be interested.  My original post entailed exactly what I was looking for. Some have responded on this thread with reasonable responses.  Some have responded directly via personal message with helpful information or web links. I am grateful for the responses because no one had to respond. I posted on this forum because I figured like me there had to be at least a few people who follow this forum for entertainment purposes who also no longer believe the Bible to be the Word of God and could help me with the situation I find myself in. I did not come to this conclusion because I wanted to. To be honest, I'm actually surprised myself with where I am in regards to spirituality and religion. But, here I am nonetheless. When someone offers the advice to pray, ask forgiveness, seek the counsel of a wise pastor, etc they are basing this advice off their belief in the Bible being the Word of an all knowing God. I get that but what some of you don't get is I don't believe that so what good would any of that advice do me?  I have read and studied the Bible extensively. As much and maybe more than some of you on here posting advice. Would you take advice from someone who read to you from the Koran, Book of Mormon, or some other "holy" book? Of course not.
The Bible says "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", Rom 10:17.  Well, exactly the opposite happened to me.  The more I read and studied the Bible the less believable it became.  I actually wrote out some of the reasons I no longer believe which includes contradictions, Bible "science", the flood account (that could be a book itself), biblical "morality" (God ordering the kidnapping and rape of women, etc) and it totaled 28 pages so far.  And I'm not even through. Just because a "wise pastor" would point out some inspiring verses from Psalms to encourage me during counseling I would not be able to forget that those verses would be written within the same pages as those that condone slavery, torture, kidnapping, rape and other atrocities.
So no, FSSL, I'm not interested in your 1973 Ford Pinto. Hence the reply, "Lol. No."

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I am a Radiochemist with a  secular Chemistry degree and a graduate Master of Science.  I was not raised in a Christian home nor was I indoctrinated into Christianity but came to Christ as an adult. Coming to terms with the Scriptures and the difficult parts is not a matter of intellect, but a matter of the individual's  moral will. There are plenty of people on either side of the intellectual spectrum that come to differing conclusions as to the veracity of Scriptures, so your underlying implication of inconsistencies is without legitimate basis.  I'd wager a guess that in all of your pursuit and studies of Scriptures once you began to doubt that you never attempted to view materials written from intellectually sound apologetic defenders of the faith (not talking about Sword of the Lord or Revival Fires articles and the like here).  You have not interacted with any significance on the evangelical side of the ledger here but rather those that already tell you what you want to believe about the Bible, and I'd bet that is the pattern of your endeavors in the recent past since you've lost your faith.  It's a form of confirmation bias.

If you're interested in looking at both sides of the apologetic coin with sincerity I'd be glad to give you some resources.  Just say the word.

There are people of high intelligence and advanced degrees in the Muslim world that have "come to terms" with the "holy" scriptures of the Koran and its difficult parts (crazy and evil) and have exercised their "moral will" against their common sense and they are convinced that the Koran is Allah's holy word.

People of intelligence in that part of the world think so. And "defenders" of its faith could give its reason why it is.

But that doesn't change the fact that there are not 72 virgins waiting on the faithful.

And Joseph realizes that pigs never talked and snakes never walked and had chit chats with gullible women.

At least, I think he does.

 

[Joseph007]

If this were an automobile sales forum and I posted that I was looking for a 2012 - 2016 Ford F150 double cab with no more than 100,000 miles and someone offered me a 2009 Dodge Ram single cab with 190,000 miles I would not be interested.  My original post entailed exactly what I was looking for. Some have responded on this thread with reasonable responses.  Some have responded directly via personal message with helpful information or web links. I am grateful for the responses because no one had to respond. I posted on this forum because I figured like me there had to be at least a few people who follow this forum for entertainment purposes who also no longer believe the Bible to be the Word of God and could help me with the situation I find myself in. I did not come to this conclusion because I wanted to. To be honest, I'm actually surprised myself with where I am in regards to spirituality and religion. But, here I am nonetheless. When someone offers the advice to pray, ask forgiveness, seek the counsel of a wise pastor, etc they are basing this advice off their belief in the Bible being the Word of an all knowing God. I get that but what some of you don't get is I don't believe that so what good would any of that advice do me?  I have read and studied the Bible extensively. As much and maybe more than some of you on here posting advice. Would you take advice from someone who read to you from the Koran, Book of Mormon, or some other "holy" book? Of course not.
The Bible says "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", Rom 10:17.  Well, exactly the opposite happened to me.  The more I read and studied the Bible the less believable it became.  I actually wrote out some of the reasons I no longer believe which includes contradictions, Bible "science", the flood account (that could be a book itself), biblical "morality" (God ordering the kidnapping and rape of women, etc) and it totaled 28 pages so far.  And I'm not even through. Just because a "wise pastor" would point out some inspiring verses from Psalms to encourage me during counseling I would not be able to forget that those verses would be written within the same pages as those that condone slavery, torture, kidnapping, rape and other atrocities.
So no, FSSL, I'm not interested in your 1973 Ford Pinto. Hence the reply, "Lol. No."

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I am a Radiochemist with a  secular Chemistry degree and a graduate Master of Science.  I was not raised in a Christian home nor was I indoctrinated into Christianity but came to Christ as an adult.  Coming to terms with the Scriptures and the difficult parts is not a matter of intellect, but a matter of the individual's  moral will.  There are plenty of people on either side of the intellectual spectrum that come to differing conclusions as to the veracity of Scriptures, so your underlying implication of inconsistencies is without legitimate basis.  I'd wager a guess that in all of your pursuit and studies of Scriptures once you began to doubt that you never attempted to view materials written from intellectually sound apologetic defenders of the faith (not talking about Sword of the Lord or Revival Fires articles and the like here).  You have not interacted with any significance on the evangelical side of the ledger here but rather those that already tell you what you want to believe about the Bible, and I'd bet that is the pattern of your endeavors in the recent past since you've lost your faith.  It's a form of confirmation bias.

If you're interested in looking at both sides of the apologetic coin with sincerity I'd be glad to give you some resources.  Just say the word.

Why did an omniscient, omnipotent God write a book that would require apologetics to come to its rescue?

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[Ransom]

How are you going to intruct me biblically, seeing that I know the Bible better than any ten people on this forum put together?

That's a fact as much in evidence as your being a "white Evangelical." Bwahahaha!

 

[FSSL]

And for folks like FSSL who believe he should "consider his wife" should understand if he does not come to terms of agreement with Evangelicalism, to pretend he does is living a life of hypocrisy towards his wife. So there is that issue to consider as well.

Pretend? He laughs at the suggestion that he should humbly seek her forgiveness.

He is already living hypocritically. He intends to tell her with impunity that he is breaking a solemn promise and the basis of his marriage. All the agnostics on this forum want to do is to be a ?fly on the wall? to see how it goes down.

Sad.