Coming out as an Agnostic

[ALAYMAN]

People who do not believe what the christian believes, have long been swaddled with accusations of hate (even in this thread) and unhappiness. It's a popular thing to do.

I don't believe what the majority here believe, and yet I, too, want to be a good person, I want to be loved and to love. And if I had a child, I would have wanted to be a good father. It has absolutely nothing to do with being "saved".

There are Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists that want those things - in all parts of the world.

Yes, the Imago Dei, and God's common grace explain those things, so in essence you are correct Gringo.

... I wouldn't begin to know.  And neither does anyone else.

I take strong exception to that statement however, although I would want to qualify it by saying that you are merely dealing with the concept of the degree of certainty.  Reasonable people, based on coherent philosophical and theological arguments can give compelling and coherent rationale for why the Christian worldview matches reality.

 

[Gringo]

People who do not believe what the christian believes, have long been swaddled with accusations of hate (even in this thread) and unhappiness. It's a popular thing to do.

I don't believe what the majority here believe, and yet I, too, want to be a good person, I want to be loved and to love. And if I had a child, I would have wanted to be a good father. It has absolutely nothing to do with being "saved".

There are Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists that want those things - in all parts of the world.

Yes, the Imago Dei, and God's common grace explain those things, so in essence you are correct Gringo.

... I wouldn't begin to know.  And neither does anyone else.

I take strong exception to that statement however, although I would want to qualify it by saying that you are merely dealing with the concept of the degree of certainty.  Reasonable people, based on coherent philosophical and theological arguments can give compelling and coherent rationale for why the Christian worldview matches reality.

I am sure you  do.

So do my Muslim friends Nazir, Mazin, Sanjida and Anwer.

By the way, Alaboy's dad: Merry Christmas. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

While Joseph figures out how to give a synopsis of the video in defense of something out of nothing, a bit more video analysis:

We are more insignificant than we ever imagined?.In a universe made up of 30% dark matter and 70% dark energy we are completely irrelevant.  Why such a universe in which we are so irrelevant would be made for us is beyond me (students and crowd erupt in laughter).
--Lawrence Krauss

It seems that Mr Krauss thinks that just because he has a physicist he's a philosopher too, and as the above quote gives a brief insight into, he's a poor one.  He fairly regularly demonstrates this in the video, which doesn't go unnoticed by legitimate philosophers and fellow physicists/scientists.....

Stephen Hawking has been quoted around the world for saying that God isn?t necessary to our understanding of creation. Lord Rees, former president of the Royal Society and sometimes labeled ?Britain?s greatest scientist,? expressed himself pointedly: ?I know Stephen Hawking well enough to know that he has read very little philosophy and even less theology, so I don?t think we should attach any weight to his views on this topic.?
But physics has long disdained philosophy. The prominent PBS personality, astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, recently called philosophy useless, asserting, as countless scientists do, the superiority of science in answering the big questions about existence. Richard Dawkins feels qualified to show the falseness of all theological ideas back to the beginning, ridiculing them without actually examining them. Ellis singles out a staunch Dawkins ally, physicist Lawrence Krauss, for making statements about the source of the universe without benefit of experiments or data. In other words, Krauss feels free to foist off his own philosophical baggage under the guise of being scientific.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/naieve-realism-or-the-str_b_5668093.html

Not Just Impolite?Amateurish Krauss likes to pretend?as he does in his New Yorker piece?that the reason people object to his ?militant? atheism is that they regard it as impolite. That?s a self-serving delusion. The reason Krauss has so many critics is that every time he opens his mouth about religion or philosophy, he demonstrates conclusively only that he doesn?t know what he is talking about. His confidence is inversely proportional to his actual knowledge and skill in argumentation. I?ve examined Krauss?s previous cringe-making forays into philosophy and theology in several articles, which can be found here, here, and here. http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/09/15760/


These aren't evangelical Christians giving comment here, but people of his own class, taking him to task for his ignorance of philosophical assumptions.

 

[ALAYMAN]

While Joseph formulates a layman's explanation in his own words of the video, another gem from Dr Krauss regarding Rick Warren.  His premise for the following comment is that science (via mystery and discovery) makes humble devotees of that religion, and to prove that point he cites the master of humility and civility, Bill Maher.....


Bill Maher talked about it last night....What pompous ***holes like Rick Warren, who claims to understand everything, are anathema to science.

Well, at least we know that Krauss doesn't engage in ad hominem <ahem>.  He didn't contextualize his statements one iota so that the audience could affirm his implication that Warren made some claim of knowing everything there is to know, but who wants to let a few things like facts and context get in the way of a verbal assault for comedic purposes.

Rabid atheists-philosopher-wannabes  like Krauss and Dawkins are fond of pointing to religious moments in history where theologians were erroneous in their scientific suppositions, but they are all too often silent when it comes to the facts of the groundbreaking contributions made to the scientific process throughout the ages by Christians.  It serves as a good reminder that the atheist knows there is a Creator, but they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.  Earlier, a few posts ago, I cited Mr Krauss pointing to our own insignificance in the universe (based on mathematical probabilities of events to occur "coincidentally"), and he ends his video lecture on that same note, of how non-special we are.  Bertrand Russell, a giant of atheist philosophers and certainly no friend of theists anywhere, prophetically spoke of fools like Krauss who are downright giddy about humanity's prospects (according to science)....

"Even more purposeless, more void of meaning, is the world, which Science presents for our belief.  Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward must find a home.  That Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms...destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins...Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built."

lol, now there's some hope to hold onto for ya Joseph.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Welp, I'm excited about the prospect of learning how something comes from nothing, and as much time as Joseph is taking to digest and  formulate a defense of his apologist hero I am sure that the explanation (in A simple LAYMAN's terms of course) is going to be a doozy!

In the meantime, for those who may a bit more skeptical like me who may want to understand the groundwork for the argument of https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B100505ex nihilo nihil fit (Out of nothing, nothing comes) from a purely scientific/naturalistic worldview like the junior philosopher Mr Krauss espouses, let us examine his argument via understanding the mistake he makes by the fallacy of equivocation on the word "nothing"....

As I said, the title to the book by Lawrence Krauss is A Universe from Nothing and the subtitle is Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing. The word ?nothing? is used in both the title and subtitle, but in each part it has a different meaning. This is called equivocation???an attempt to prove something by using a word to say one thing when it can have two meanings. In the first part ?nothing? would appear to mean truly nothing???the supposed state of affairs at the time of the big bang. In this sense ?nothing? is a physical concept and properly under the domain of physical science. In that regard there is substantial scientific literature on the subject of the big bang and the state of affairs at that time and the developments that appeared to have taken place just after that time.
In the subtitle the author is referring to a metaphysical principle; ?nothing comes from nothing.? Krauss knows of this principle and he knows it forms an important part of strong arguments for God's existence. The principle was first suggested by ancient Greek philosophers???in particular by a philosopher named Parmenides, a precursor to Aristotle. Krauss wishes to appear to have disproved this principle. But the word ?nothing? in this context does not mean a physical state of emptiness. It means non-being. This is confusing because non-being is harder to understand than a physical state of emptiness.

In other words...

I don't think that word means what Krauss thinks it means .

 

[Route_70]

I'm excited about the prospect of learning how something comes from nothing

The Bible does not say that God created something from nothing.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I'm excited about the prospect of learning how something comes from nothing

The Bible does not say that God created something from nothing.

This is the scripture used to defend their position:

Psalm 33

By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. He gathers the waters of the sea as a heap; he puts the deeps in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him! For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

 

[Jo]

I'm excited about the prospect of learning how something comes from nothing

The Bible does not say that God created something from nothing.

I find it quite entertaining that an atheist quotes scripture to support his points.

In reality, there is no reference book in atheism. There is no inspiration at Christmas. There is no hope when a loved one is diagnosed with cancer. There is a void, a huge void. 

I choose faith. I don't have all the answers, nor do I want to debate it with someone who is not the least bit interested in faith, unless it is to mock it.

Mock away. The majority of us will be singing, "O Holy Night" on Christmas eve.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I'm excited about the prospect of learning how something comes from nothing

The Bible does not say that God created something from nothing.

I find it quite entertaining that an atheist quotes scripture to support his points.

In reality, there is no reference book in atheism. There is no inspiration at Christmas. There is no hope when a loved one is diagnosed with cancer. There is a void, a huge void. 

I choose faith. I don't have all the answers, nor do I want to debate it with someone who is not the least bit interested in faith, unless it is to mock it.

Mock away. The majority of us will be singing, "O Holy Night" on Christmas eve.

Though there is some snark involved, Route is using the Evangelical weapon of inerrancy against them. It isn't that he believes the scriptures, but rather Evangelicals claim they do believe yet their beliefs are inconsistent in what they expect of and preach at others.

I'm sorry for your loss. This time of year has got to make the wounds hurt and faith can be a great healer. I'm thankful for your faith and for what it means to you. I hope you have a merry Christmas!

 

[Route_70]

I find it quite entertaining that an atheist quotes scripture to support his points.

I find it quite entertaining that a believer will not quote scripture to support his points.

 

[Jo]

I'm excited about the prospect of learning how something comes from nothing

The Bible does not say that God created something from nothing.

I find it quite entertaining that an atheist quotes scripture to support his points.

In reality, there is no reference book in atheism. There is no inspiration at Christmas. There is no hope when a loved one is diagnosed with cancer. There is a void, a huge void. 

I choose faith. I don't have all the answers, nor do I want to debate it with someone who is not the least bit interested in faith, unless it is to mock it.

Mock away. The majority of us will be singing, "O Holy Night" on Christmas eve.

Though there is some snark involved, Route is using the Evangelical weapon of inerrancy against them. It isn't that he believes the scriptures, but rather Evangelicals claim they do believe yet their beliefs are inconsistent in what they expect of and preach at others.

I'm sorry for your loss. This time of year has got to make the wounds hurt and faith can be a great healer. I'm thankful for your faith and for what it means to you. I hope you have a merry Christmas!

"Some" snark?!  Lol

Thank you for the Christmas wishes. Fortunately, I have not had a loss this year, I was referring to humanity, in general.

Aside from looking at this thread, I'm enjoying the Christmas season very much.


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[Smellin Coffee]

I'm excited about the prospect of learning how something comes from nothing

The Bible does not say that God created something from nothing.

I find it quite entertaining that an atheist quotes scripture to support his points.

In reality, there is no reference book in atheism. There is no inspiration at Christmas. There is no hope when a loved one is diagnosed with cancer. There is a void, a huge void. 

I choose faith. I don't have all the answers, nor do I want to debate it with someone who is not the least bit interested in faith, unless it is to mock it.

Mock away. The majority of us will be singing, "O Holy Night" on Christmas eve.

Though there is some snark involved, Route is using the Evangelical weapon of inerrancy against them. It isn't that he believes the scriptures, but rather Evangelicals claim they do believe yet their beliefs are inconsistent in what they expect of and preach at others.

I'm sorry for your loss. This time of year has got to make the wounds hurt and faith can be a great healer. I'm thankful for your faith and for what it means to you. I hope you have a merry Christmas!

"Some" snark?!  Lol

Thank you for the Christmas wishes. Fortunately, I have not had a loss this year, I was referring to humanity, in general.

Aside from looking at this thread, I'm enjoying the Christmas season very much.


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It sounded as if you were grieving. I apologize for misunderstanding. Glad things are going well with you!

 

[TheRealJonStewart]

I find it quite entertaining that an atheist quotes scripture to support his points.

I find it quite entertaining that a believer will not quote scripture to support his points.

Why does he have to? An atheist should if he's trying to counter an argument made by religion but religious people don't. You need to chill out bro.

 

[Route_70]

I find it quite entertaining that an atheist quotes scripture to support his points.

I find it quite entertaining that a believer will not quote scripture to support his points.

Why does he have to? An atheist should if he's trying to counter an argument made by religion but religious people don't. You need to chill out bro.

Huh?  What?

It must be so very exasperating to you, laying your head on your pillow at night, under the knowledge and stark realization that I know the Bible better than you or any 10 people on this forum put together ... times 10.

 

[FSSL]

Yes. Since Route has no Bible. He knows 10x less than 10 people on this forum.


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[TheRealJonStewart]

I find it quite entertaining that an atheist quotes scripture to support his points.

I find it quite entertaining that a believer will not quote scripture to support his points.

Why does he have to? An atheist should if he's trying to counter an argument made by religion but religious people don't. You need to chill out bro.

Huh?  What?

It must be so very exasperating to you, laying your head on your pillow at night, under the knowledge and stark realization that I know the Bible better than you or any 10 people on this forum put together ... times 10.

I don't believe the Bible so your argument has failed.

 

[Route_70]

I don't believe the Bible so your argument has failed.

Good for you.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I'm excited about the prospect of learning how something comes from nothing

The Bible does not say that God created something from nothing.

The Bible doesn't say the word "Trinity",  but it nonetheless teaches it.  Such is the case for ex nihilo from God.

Though there is some snark involved, Route is using the Evangelical weapon of inerrancy against them. It isn't that he believes the scriptures, but rather Evangelicals claim they do believe yet their beliefs are inconsistent in what they expect of and preach at others.

uhhhh, no.  That is not what Route is doing.  How is it that you perceive that this is an issue of inerrancy?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Joseph, have you had enough time to  come up with your supporting answer for Dr Krauss' theory of how nothing came from something?

 

[Route_70]

The Bible does not say that God created something from nothing.

The Bible doesn't say the word "Trinity",  but it nonetheless teaches it.  Such is the case for ex nihilo from God.

Okay, The Bible does not teach that God created something from nothing.

There is nothing in Genesis 1 to indicate that God created the heaven and the earth from nothing.  Quite the opposite.