Coming out as an Agnostic

[biscuit1953]

The Bible does not say that God created something from nothing.

The Bible doesn't say the word "Trinity",  but it nonetheless teaches it.  Such is the case for ex nihilo from God.

Okay, The Bible does not teach that God created something from nothing.

There is nothing in Genesis 1 to indicate that God created the heaven and the earth from nothing.  Quite the opposite.

By the word of the Lord were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
Psalm 33:6
Its hard to argue with a fool.

 

[Route_70]

Here is what I said:

There is nothing in Genesis 1 to indicate that God created the heaven and the earth from nothing.  Quite the opposite.

Here is the response:

By the word of the Lord were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
Psalm 33:6
Its hard to argue with a fool.

As I said, "There is nothing in Genesis 1 to indicate that God created the heaven and the earth from nothing."

 

[Gringo]

Here is what I said:

There is nothing in Genesis 1 to indicate that God created the heaven and the earth from nothing.  Quite the opposite.

Here is the response:

By the word of the Lord were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
Psalm 33:6
Its hard to argue with a fool.

As I said, "There is nothing in Genesis 1 to indicate that God created the heaven and the earth from nothing."

How did he create the heaven and the earth? 

 

[ALAYMAN]

How did he create the heaven and the earth? 

Enquiring minds wanna know!

And I guess Joseph just wants to post other people's thoughts on the matter but doesn't have any of his own.  Tis a shame.

 

[TheRealJonStewart]

I don't believe the Bible so your argument has failed.

Good for you.

But not good for you since your argument has failed yet again.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Joseph, how does such philosophical sophistry ("something from nothing") jive with the first law of thermodynamics (matter can be neither creation nor destroyed)?

 

[Route_70]

Joseph, how does such philosophical sophistry ("something from nothing") jive with the first law of thermodynamics (matter can be neither creation nor destroyed)?

Ask a physicist.  You left out part.  The idea is that in a closed system, the amount of energy remains constant.  The energy can change forms; but the total amount remains the same.  None can be added; and none can be subtracted.

The second law then goes on to say that with every reaction in a closed system, part of the matter is released into the system as heat; and over time, the amount of heat (entropy) increases.

It is important to note, however, that there really is no such thing as a "law" of thermodynamics.  Laws are arbitrary things, given by decree.  The so-called "laws of physics," et al, are no more than assumptions upon which physicists build their theories.  The laws have never been proved to be true.  The "laws" are not really "laws."

Being educated in math and physics, as you claim to be, you are well aware than it is only in mathematics where a theorem can be proven.  But even then, the proof must begin with some sort of assumption -- that is, either a previously proven theorem, or a statement, which is arbitrarily accepted as true without proof.  Physics theories, on the other hand, can never be proven in the same sense that math theorems can.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I would ask a physicist but Dr Krauss has yet to come on the forum.  And as for the closed system, it?s good of you to admit that a first cause must have acted to create our universe.  You are getting closer.

 

[Route_70]

I would ask a physicist but Dr Krauss has yet to come on the forum.  And as for the closed system, it?s good of you to admit that a first cause must have acted to create our universe.  You are getting closer.

Come on, dude.  I've always had respect for you.  Now you are showing yourself to be duped.  Are you afraid to say, "God created the universe?"  You have to say: "A first cause created the universe."

What a wimp!

 

[Route_70]

Let me add that the corollary to the theory of "first law of thermodynamics" is that the closed system in question (the universe) has always existed, and never had a beginning.  No need for a creation.

 

[TheRealJonStewart]

I would ask a physicist but Dr Krauss has yet to come on the forum.  And as for the closed system, it?s good of you to admit that a first cause must have acted to create our universe.  You are getting closer.

Come on, dude.  I've always had respect for you.  Now you are showing yourself to be duped.  Are you afraid to say, "God created the universe?"  You have to say: "A first cause created the universe."

What a wimp!

Now now, let's be nice.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Come on, dude.  I've always had respect for you.  Now you are showing yourself to be duped.  Are you afraid to say, "God created the universe?"  You have to say: "A first cause created the universe."

What a wimp!

God created the universe.  There, that wasn't hard at all (Col 1:16).

Let me add that the corollary to the theory of "first law of thermodynamics" is that the closed system in question (the universe) has always existed, and never had a beginning.  No need for a creation.

Eternal space, time, and matter.  hmmmmm.....this indeed is again proof that science is a religion to some/many.

 

[Route_70]

Eternal space, time, and matter.  hmmmmm.....this indeed is again proof that science is a religion to some/many.

You find it easy to believe that God never had a beginning.  Likewise, I don't find it difficult to believe that the universe has always existed.

Who is to say that you are right and I am wrong.  You, yourself, referenced the first law of thermodynmics.  Do you have the chapter and verse behind that?  You got that idea from science, not the Bible.  Make up your mind which you believe:  the Bible or science.

 

[ALAYMAN]

You find it easy to believe that God never had a beginning.  Likewise, I don't find it difficult to believe that the universe has always existed.

I am not speaking to you as a Christian fundamentalist now, but as a person who was most definitely where you now claim to be.  As such, a rational and logical conundrum is persistently nagging at your worldview.  How in the world can something come from nothing.  It boggles the mind because it is simply illogical to the core.  It doesn't match any of the data for any scientific reasoning, and most definitely is problematic philosophically.  None of that proves the existence of the Christian view of an explanation for our being, but your side of the equation is completely bankrupt and vain.

Who is to say that you are right and I am wrong.  You, yourself, referenced the first law of thermodynmics.  Do you have the chapter and verse behind that?  You got that idea from science, not the Bible.  Make up your mind which you believe:  the Bible or science.

Science and God do not have to be mutually exclusive.  In the most obvious sense, science constantly is designed to be self-correcting.  Archaeological and historical evidence emerges all the time demonstrating this.  The Bible doesn't demand that reason be left out of consideration for our existence.  We are made as rational creatures, in mind, body, and spirit.  As such we are able to use our given capacities to corroborate a coherent explanation of why the Christian worldview makes the most sense of things.

 

[Route_70]

I am not speaking to you as a Christian fundamentalist now, but as a person who was most definitely where you now claim to be ... your side of the equation is completely bankrupt and vain.

Well, employing your logic, I can conversely say that "I am not speaking as an athiest/agnostic, but as a person who was most definitely where you now claim to be ... your side of the equation is completely bankrupt and vain."

Unlike you, I do not claim to most definitely, without variation have the answer, as I did when I was a fundamentlist Christian.  I enjoy following the developments of physics.  I also enjoy reading and studying the Bible.  Hebrews 11 clearly teaches that it is only by faith -- nothing else -- that a person can make sense of the world.  Hebrews 11 clearly teaches that without faith, we are at a lost to explain this world.

I don't think you ever had an understanding of physics.  Oh, you took a few courses in physics, but it takes years for most people to get to where they can wrap their minds around physics' concepts.

This is important:  the physicist does not say: "There is no God; therefore let's invent an answer."  The physicist does say: "Suppose there is no God.  Therefore, let us seek an answer."

Do you not see the difference?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Do you not see the difference?

I see how you came to that conclusion, but disagree with how you arrived at it.  Physics (nor can science or atheism) can't explain comprehensively and conclusively a coherent reason for the most important questions of life (meaning, existence, morality etc).  In that sense, all of your wonderment at the search to explain mysteries of the universe is (and always will be) bankrupt/vain.


Since Joseph has apparently given up on trying to explain how something can come from nothing I figure a little philosophy from some Canadians may put it on the bottom shelf...

You Can't Get Something For Nothing

 

[Route_70]

Do you not see the difference?

I see how you came to that conclusion, but disagree with how you arrived at it.  Physics (nor can science or atheism) can't explain comprehensively and conclusively a coherent reason for the most important questions of life (meaning, existence, morality etc).  In that sense, all of your wonderment at the search to explain mysteries of the universe is (and always will be) bankrupt/vain.

That is your opinion; and you know what they say about opinions.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Do you not see the difference?

I see how you came to that conclusion, but disagree with how you arrived at it.  Physics (nor can science or atheism) can't explain comprehensively and conclusively a coherent reason for the most important questions of life (meaning, existence, morality etc).  In that sense, all of your wonderment at the search to explain mysteries of the universe is (and always will be) bankrupt/vain.

That is your opinion; and you know what they say about opinions.

Yes, I do know about armpits and opinions, but you also know that it is truth.  Science cannot, and never will answer the most important questions of life.  For you to merely use our dialogue on this matter for entertainment shows how bankrupt your opinion is on the most important matters of your very own existence.  You can't find true solace in quarks, anti-neutrinos, nor dark matter.

 

[Route_70]

You can't find true solace in quarks, anti-neutrinos, nor dark matter.

You are right.  There can be no solace in sub-atomic particles; but they are of great interest.  And they should be of great interest to you and everyone else who believes that those things were created by God.

 

[ALAYMAN]

You can't find true solace in quarks, anti-neutrinos, nor dark matter.

You are right.  There can be no solace in sub-atomic particles; but they are of great interest.  And they should be of great interest to you and everyone else who believes that those things were created by God.

And a hearty amen to that.  The philosophical tenets that undergird the pursuit of truth find their full robust meaning in realizing that all truth is God's truth!