Conservativism Without Christianity

[prophet]

And I illustrated : where that got Paul. Eventually, he gave up even trying to reach them, because they were incorrigible. He, wisely, went after those who were willing to receive his witness.

earnestly contend

Whether people accept or reject the gospel, that is none of our concern. Paul obeyed the gospel.

You have NO IDEA as to who will willing receive the witness. You do not know how the gospel will be received until you give it. Why? Because it is God's work.

You could find no more incorrigible people than those on Crete and in Corinth. YET,  Paul walked into those places and people were saved.

Are you trying to say that Paul never gave up trying to reach His brethren after the flesh?



earnestly contend

 

[Recovering IFB]

it looks like you are avoiding my question, but ill answer yours. Im going to answer them in differnt order because it will help explain things

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Lets start here first because it will clarify everything else. One of 'Murican lovers favorite verses, but yet do not always quote the rest
"Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.  For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.  For the one in authority is God?s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God?s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.  Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."
As you can see by the underlined verses that the purposes of government and the enforcement of laws  is to restrain evil in our society,to bring to justice those who break the law. Christians in this sense should obey the laws of the land in a sense that we do not dishonor God in being involved in criminal activities, or we suffer the consequences.

1 Timothy 2:1-15 / 1 Timothy 2:1-4
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ...

Here we have a total misuse of Scripture in Timothy. Paul is speaking of God's salvation purposes. Read the first chapter and read the rest of chapter 2. How can this be a teaching on submission to government. Paul is using "kings and people in high positions"as "kinds' of people we should be praying for,because God's authority is over all, including Kings

What were the Jews told to do during the Babylonian captivity?
To pray for the city if their exile.
But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare. Jeremiah 29:7

And the reason for this was for the people of Israel that were in the city, in the same sense that believers. who are in other cities around the world, praying for the people of God,

Daniel 2:20-23
Daniel answered and said: ?Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, to whom belong wisdom and might. He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding; he reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what is in the darkness, and the light dwells with him. To you, O God of my fathers, I give thanks and praise, for you have given me wisdom and might, and have now made known to me what we asked of you, for you have made known to us the king's matter.?

See answer below. this has nothing to do with obeying "government", an unGodly government at that, but rather showing respect to the king which is different  that doing what you are prescribing

1 Peter 2:17
Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

and as believers we should be kind and loving in our approach with others(1Pet :15). we shouldnt be known as a people that are crude and disrespectful to others
Let me ask you, How about you? have you honored the king? you have, since I have been on here, you have bashed any government official that doesn't prescribe to you political persuasion. How many times have you called President Obama, President Obummer? How many times have you called people "libtards"? Is that honoring? Does that bring honor to Christ?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

it looks like you are avoiding my question, but ill answer yours. Im going to answer them in differnt order because it will help explain things

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Lets start here first because it will clarify everything else. One of 'Murican lovers favorite verses, but yet do not always quote the rest
"Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.  For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.  For the one in authority is God?s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God?s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.  Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."
As you can see by the underlined verses that the purposes of government and the enforcement of laws  is to restrain evil in our society,to bring to justice those who break the law. Christians in this sense should obey the laws of the land in a sense that we do not dishonor God in being involved in criminal activities, or we suffer the consequences.

1 Timothy 2:1-15 / 1 Timothy 2:1-4
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ...

Here we have a total misuse of Scripture in Timothy. Paul is speaking of God's salvation purposes. Read the first chapter and read the rest of chapter 2. How can this be a teaching on submission to government. Paul is using "kings and people in high positions"as "kinds' of people we should be praying for,because God's authority is over all, including Kings

What were the Jews told to do during the Babylonian captivity?
To pray for the city if their exile.
But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare. Jeremiah 29:7

And the reason for this was for the people of Israel that were in the city, in the same sense that believers. who are in other cities around the world, praying for the people of God,

Daniel 2:20-23
Daniel answered and said: ?Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, to whom belong wisdom and might. He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding; he reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what is in the darkness, and the light dwells with him. To you, O God of my fathers, I give thanks and praise, for you have given me wisdom and might, and have now made known to me what we asked of you, for you have made known to us the king's matter.?

See answer below. this has nothing to do with obeying "government", an unGodly government at that, but rather showing respect to the king which is different  that doing what you are prescribing

1 Peter 2:17
Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

and as believers we should be kind and loving in our approach with others(1Pet :15). we shouldnt be known as a people that are crude and disrespectful to others
Let me ask you, How about you? have you honored the king? you have, since I have been on here, you have bashed any government official that doesn't prescribe to you political persuasion. How many times have you called President Obama, President Obummer? How many times have you called people "libtards"? Is that honoring? Does that bring honor to Christ?

Your contorting to make those verses say what you want them to say is laughable. Your response to Jeremiah's encouraging Israel to pray for Babylon is pure drivel...unintelligible drivel.
The scriptures say what they say and mean what they mean.

Your only point that deserves a response is your accusing me of not doing what Scripture teaches. I might do and say things here that I would not do publicly. I use hyperbole and extreme sarcasm here to respond to what I feel is absurd positions taken by you who are wrong.?

In our church, we pray each week for our elected officials, local, state and nationally...that God would bless them and use they for His purpose and our good.

Does the fact that I believe government should be honored restrict me from criticizing it? The fact that socialism has always led to the destruction of a culture, country and economy leads me to criticize, exercise my freedom to work and vote against such political positions....to save us from becoming Cuba.

Your odd (to me) reconstruction beliefs require you to subscribe to the contortion school of hermeneutics. At least you don't arbitrarily pick and choose your own personal canon of scripture, but truthfully scripture makes your views look foolish.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Your contorting to make those verses say what you want them to say is laughable. Your response to Jeremiah's encouraging Israel to pray for Babylon is pure drivel...unintelligible drivel.
The scriptures say what they say and mean what they mean.

All you have made were assertions, you have not interacted with  any verse I have provided. And you have pulled verses out of context and tried to make your worship of government palatable.

Your only point that deserves a response is your accusing me of not doing what Scripture teaches. I might do and say things here that I would not do publicly. I use hyperbole and extreme sarcasm here to respond to what I feel is absurd positions taken by you who are wrong.?

In our church, we pray each week for our elected officials, local, state and nationally...that God would bless them and use they for His purpose and our good.

Does the fact that I believe government should be honored restrict me from criticizing it? The fact that socialism has always led to the destruction of a culture, country and economy leads me to criticize, exercise my freedom to work and vote against such political positions....to save us from becoming Cuba.

Your odd (to me) reconstruction beliefs require you to subscribe to the contortion school of hermeneutics.

Which you have done with Jeremiah, Romans and Timothy. You have tried to take God's people scattered throughout the world; and turn them into political pawns for you political "Beast". Have you even made God's Word the very foundation of your knowledge? Everything derived from that? What eschatological position do you have/teach at your church? What effect does it have in the community in your area?

At least you don't arbitrarily pick and choose your own personal canon of scripture, but truthfully scripture makes your views look foolish.

again, another assertion. I can honestly  say I use the whole counsel of God. For all of the accusations hurled against me, it is actually the very fundamentalist on this site who are the antinomians. 
It is you who have bought into a tradition with its roots grounded in Scofield and sci-fi novels from the 70's. It is you who is picking and choosing what Scriptures to obey. It is you who looks to government to give you guidance and not obeying God's word. It is people subscribing to Rush and not repenting and believing in your worldview. Again, I ask you, do you notice the very titles of the threads you start, they are very political in nature. You worship/self identify with the Republican Party and don't even see/offer a shred of the Gospel in any of you synopsis of your threads

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Your contorting to make those verses say what you want them to say is laughable. Your response to Jeremiah's encouraging Israel to pray for Babylon is pure drivel...unintelligible drivel.
The scriptures say what they say and mean what they mean.

All you have made were assertions, you have not interacted with  any verse I have provided. And you have pulled verses out of context and tried to make your worship of government palatable.

Your only point that deserves a response is your accusing me of not doing what Scripture teaches. I might do and say things here that I would not do publicly. I use hyperbole and extreme sarcasm here to respond to what I feel is absurd positions taken by you who are wrong.?

In our church, we pray each week for our elected officials, local, state and nationally...that God would bless them and use they for His purpose and our good.

Does the fact that I believe government should be honored restrict me from criticizing it? The fact that socialism has always led to the destruction of a culture, country and economy leads me to criticize, exercise my freedom to work and vote against such political positions....to save us from becoming Cuba.

Your odd (to me) reconstruction beliefs require you to subscribe to the contortion school of hermeneutics.

Which you have done with Jeremiah, Romans and Timothy. You have tried to take God's people scattered throughout the world; and turn them into political pawns for you political "Beast". Have you even made God's Word the very foundation of your knowledge? Everything derived from that? What eschatological position do you have/teach at your church? What effect does it have in the community in your area?

At least you don't arbitrarily pick and choose your own personal canon of scripture, but truthfully scripture makes your views look foolish.

again, another assertion. I can honestly  say I use the whole counsel of God. For all of the accusations hurled against me, it is actually the very fundamentalist on this site who are the antinomians. 
It is you who have bought into a tradition with its roots grounded in Scofield and sci-fi novels from the 70's. It is you who is picking and choosing what Scriptures to obey. It is you who looks to government to give you guidance and not obeying God's word. It is people subscribing to Rush and not repenting and believing in your worldview. Again, I ask you, do you notice the very titles of the threads you start, they are very political in nature. You worship/self identify with the Republican Party and don't even see/offer a shred of the Gospel in any of you synopsis of your threads

I know what you believe, I have read Rushdoony and North.
The irony in your last paragraph is palpable...you accuse me of attacking others beliefs while attacking mine. One day His kingdom will come physically to earth and your Theocracy will be realized. I'm looking forward to that as well. But in the meantime, the next big event on your prophetic calendar is the coming catastrophe of y3k.

 

[Recovering IFB]

I know what you believe, I have read Rushdoony and North.

You're one up on me, I haven't read them yet, maybe Rushdoony, but not North

The irony in your last paragraph is palpable...you accuse me of attacking others beliefs while attacking mine.

I am attacking your "relationship" with government. I'm not going after your faith. If you were a member of the church im a member of, and you posted what you do here on Facebook, you would be questioned about it by others.

One day His kingdom will come physically to earth and your Theocracy will be realized. I'm looking forward to that as well. But in the meantime, the next big event on your prophetic calendar is the coming catastrophe of y3k.

It's here already, Christ rules from Heaven. All authority has been given to Him. We are in the Last Days, meaning that there is nothing left to be done except gather the believers from the four corners of the world and Christ to come back and end history as we know it.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Recovering IFB:
I am attacking your "relationship" with government. I'm not going after your faith. If you were a member of the church im a member of, and you posted what you do here on Facebook, you would be questioned about it by others

What exactly is my relationship with government?

And I think I can begin to understand being questioned on everyday activities by one's spiritual leaders...I recently watched part of Leah Remini's expose on Scientology.

 

[Recovering IFB]

What exactly is my relationship with government?

Well it appears that you see government as your protection and where you go to for justice; the fact that you side with them when police(unBiblical and unConstitutional) guns down a certian sector of our communities, you side with such people, and mock those who disagree with said god........

And I think I can begin to understand being questioned on everyday activities by one's spiritual leaders...I recently watched part of Leah Remini's expose on Scientology.

And the ad-homs keep coming.......( don't worry, I'm not offended, you still haven't interacted with the Scriptures I provided)
let me ask you, a church member you follow on FB posts something, foolish and anti-ministry position. you do not confront? Do you practice church discipline? and is that standard found in Scripture?

BTW, you still haven't answered, what is your eschatological position at the church you attend?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Recovering: Well it appears that you see government as your protection and where you go to for justice; the fact that you side with them when police(unBiblical and unConstitutional) guns down a certian sector of our communities, you side with such people, and mock those who disagree with said god........

It appears that you misunderstand or misrepresent my 'relationship' with government. Mine is the same as yours...I am under their authority like them or not, agree with them or not. We under Obama's government and we will be under Trump's. I agree and disagree with their decisions, support them when I think they are right and offer criticism when I them they are wrong...and often work to get them out of office. I believe that Police officers are like the rest of the population, some are good, some are not...but know that the vast majority seek to protect and serve their communities. You, I guess call your local drug dealer when you need help....

And the ad-homs keep coming.......( don't worry, I'm not offended, you still haven't interacted with the Scriptures I provided)
let me ask you, a church member you follow on FB posts something, foolish and anti-ministry position. you do not confront? Do you practice church discipline? and is that standard found in Scripture?

My comment was not meant as a personal attack.
If your church would bring discipline against me for my remarks to you on this forum, IMO they are cult like in their control.

And the interpretation of the Scriptures you offered are not worth answering. You must give a 'special explanation' of the verses in order to defend your odd (to me) beliefs. If you want a defense of my interpretation of the passages I offered, read a MacArthur commentary...or any mainstream commentary. My interpretation is not out of the mainstream of evangelical hermeneutics...yours are. The verse in Jeremiah you said we're out od context was given in the very context of your question to me about praying for a pagan government. Jeremiah was instructing the Jews to pray for the city of their captivity....pagan Babylon!

 

[Recovering IFB]

John MacArthur, for all he has done, is lacking in his eschatology. I'm sure you have seen his video on YouTube when he calls the world a sinking ship. That I the opposite of what I see in Scripture. I see the meek inherenting the world. I see the sinners taking away in the Flood narrative. So why would I read MacArthur? Because he is "mainstream"?
As for your other remarks.  you use your brashness and insulting ad homs instead of interacting with what I provide, then you say that my verses I provided "are not worth answering" because it's outside of "mainstream"?
You mean American Evangelicalism?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

John MacArthur, for all he has done, is lacking in his eschatology. I'm sure you have seen his video on YouTube when he calls the world a sinking ship. That I the opposite of what I see in Scripture. I see the meek inherenting the world. I see the sinners taking away in the Flood narrative. So why would I read MacArthur? Because he is "mainstream"?
As for your other remarks.  you use your brashness and insulting ad homs instead of interacting with what I provide, then you say that my verses I provided "are not worth answering" because it's outside of "mainstream"?
You mean American Evangelicalism?

I am an American and I am an evangelical.
The scripture passages I gave are interpreted by mainstream evangelicals literally...and the out of context charge is a non starter...Jeremiah's example for instance.

I honestly did not mean 'not worth answering' as an attack on you personally...but that the scriptures referenced speak for themselves and your special explanation/interpretation of them have no merit. IMO

Your Reconstructionist views, odd to me, determine your Postmillennial eschatology, which I am very familiar with....I have David Brown and Hodge's Systematic Theology in my library. You have every right to believe as you believe...as do I. But, to think that Postmillennial arguments have some intellectual superiority is misplaced. All in all, I'd come much closer to believing the Amillennialists arguments....

 

[Recovering IFB]

If you think I was trying to say that my view was "superior", I apologize if it came across that way. That truly was not my intention. I think that over the past year in studying eschatology that the post-mil position helped me to understand other aspects of Scripture, brought the flow of history into a better prospective. And I have read Bahnsen's "By This Standard", because it was recommended to me by a pastor of Post Mil church. It makes sense again of Scripture where it pertains to Law and Gospel.
I think that through a post-mil perspective it gives the church a true motivation to preach and teach the nations.
Governments included.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

If you think I was trying to say that my view was "superior", I apologize if it came across that way. That truly was not my intention. I think that over the past year in studying eschatology that the post-mil position helped me to understand other aspects of Scripture, brought the flow of history into a better prospective. And I have read Bahnsen's "By This Standard", because it was recommended to me by a pastor of Post Mil church. It makes sense again of Scripture where it pertains to Law and Gospel.
I think that through a post-mil perspective it gives the church a true motivation to preach and teach the nations.
Governments included.

I was speaking in general, but assume that you do believe the Postmill view is superior. As I stated before, I have great admiration for many Postmill theologians of the past....beginning with Augustine.

Personally, I don't believe it is the view with the most adequate Biblical arguments in its favor. I am admittedly a Premill Calvinist a la MacArthur, generally speaking.