C
Castor Muscular
Guest
Holy Mole said:Did anyone say "Death Cookie"?
That one will make any Catholic fall to their knees in repentance!
Death cookie? It's only wahfer thin.
Holy Mole said:Did anyone say "Death Cookie"?
That one will make any Catholic fall to their knees in repentance!
Izdaari said:No, dabbling in the occult is real, and the spiritual world is real. But D&D has nothing to do with any of that. And any spells one might be able to cast in real life that actually work, they're nothing remotely like D&D spells, and they didn't learn them from playing D&D. I do actually know something about the other kind, but that was stuff I learned while researching the occult. There is no resemblance.
Castor Muscular said:ALAYMAN said:Castor Muscular said:Are you suggesting that playing D&D is dabbling in the occult?
I really don't know. That's the knock I had heard about such role-playing games.
It's just a game. If I were going to warn anyone off a game, it would be a Ouija board, which is technically not a game. But D&D is nothing more than a game. Anyone who makes it more than that could just as easily twist Go Fish into an occult experience.
PappaBear said:Incorrect. D&D is very dangerous.
Castor Muscular said:PappaBear said:Incorrect. D&D is very dangerous.
It IS very dangerous. It turned me into a Calvinist Hairy Tick.
PappaBear said:Castor Muscular said:ALAYMAN said:Castor Muscular said:Are you suggesting that playing D&D is dabbling in the occult?
I really don't know. That's the knock I had heard about such role-playing games.
It's just a game. If I were going to warn anyone off a game, it would be a Ouija board, which is technically not a game. But D&D is nothing more than a game. Anyone who makes it more than that could just as easily twist Go Fish into an occult experience.
Incorrect. D&D is very dangerous. Like it says in 2Cor 10;5 "Casting down imaginations ..." Those games contain no virtue or praise to think on. Romans 12:2 says we should be transformed by the "renewing of your mind." Mental role play games regarding spells, wizards, and evil does not do that.
And I understand your hatred of Chick tracts, but the Dungeons & Dragons thing is warned against by places so innocuous and non-KJV as Adventures in Odyssey. In their 2 part program Castles and Cauldrons, they come out against it. The occult is not something anyone should want to play with, or even take a risk on.
Izdaari said:...I looked up Adventures in Odyssey, and it's some Focus on the Family (a source I am not inclined to trust) radio show with no apparent reason to believe they know anything about D&D.
Izdaari said:Neither 2 Cor 10:5 or Romans 12:2 have anything to do with D&D. I looked up Adventures in Odyssey, and it's some Focus on the Family (a source I am not inclined to trust) radio show with no apparent reason to believe they know anything about D&D. I agree that dabbling in the occult is dangerous. But D&D has nothing at all to do with the occult.
ALAYMAN said:Izdaari said:...I looked up Adventures in Odyssey, and it's some Focus on the Family (a source I am not inclined to trust) radio show with no apparent reason to believe they know anything about D&D.
James Dobson is their founder, a Phd psychiatrist from USC, now retired. I have a feeling that Pappa referenced them merely to point out the fact that there are people who aren't fundys that claim D&D has occult roots and associations. They are certainly people right of you theologically and practically, but they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as ignorant kooks.
Izdaari said:But a few points anyway:
1) I do not support worship of Mary, transubstantiation or works salvation. I do however, believe in Real Presence, but spiritually rather the physically. That's essentially the position of several Protestant denominations.
2) I love rock 'n' roll as a music, not as a culture.
3) D&D and other fantasy roleplaying games are not inherently occult or demonic. They can be, if you put that into them, but then so can almost anything.
4) I am not a teetotaler. I support responsible use of alcohol and oppose alcoholism. Again, that's the historic position of most Protestant denominations before the 19th century Temperance Movement.
5) I support legalization of drugs because I think the laws against them are basically a price support program for organized crime and an excuse for parasitic, exploitive, authoritarian big government (the primary purpose of any bureaucracy is to hire and pay bureaucrats; once that is done, any secondary purpose might also be attempted), the same as Prohibition proved to be. I do not use any or recommend their use.
6) KJVO is the province of cranks and nutjobs, not of any serious, reputable Bible scholars.
7) I think we have the Five Fundamentals in common, though my definition of inerrancy is no doubt much more liberal than than yours. And probably the substance of the Nicene Creed too, whether or not you believe in using creeds.
rsc2a said:Pappa Bear -
All those verse you are citing. They are talking about actual sorcery, actual witchcraft, actual conversations with demons. D&D is about as dangerous as a game of Clue or Monopoly.
PappaBear said:rsc2a said:Pappa Bear -
All those verse you are citing. They are talking about actual sorcery, actual witchcraft, actual conversations with demons. D&D is about as dangerous as a game of Clue or Monopoly.
Where in Clue or Monopoly do you actual role play the part of a witch or sorcerer?
rsc2a said:No where. One you play the part of a potential murderer and the other a greedy robber baron? Are these somehow acceptable trades for Christians to pursue?
rsc2a said:And here your ignorance of the topic at hand is showing...
PappaBear said:rsc2a said:No where. One you play the part of a potential murderer and the other a greedy robber baron? Are these somehow acceptable trades for Christians to pursue?
Neglecting any dispute on the trades in those games, are you equivocating a "potential murderer" or "greedy robber baron" to what the Bible has to say about witches, sorcerers, demons, and the like? Bit of a stretch. But not unusual for you.
.PappaBear said:Izdaari said:But a few points anyway:
1) I do not support worship of Mary, transubstantiation or works salvation. I do however, believe in Real Presence, but spiritually rather the physically. That's essentially the position of several Protestant denominations.
2) I love rock 'n' roll as a music, not as a culture.
3) D&D and other fantasy roleplaying games are not inherently occult or demonic. They can be, if you put that into them, but then so can almost anything.
4) I am not a teetotaler. I support responsible use of alcohol and oppose alcoholism. Again, that's the historic position of most Protestant denominations before the 19th century Temperance Movement.
5) I support legalization of drugs because I think the laws against them are basically a price support program for organized crime and an excuse for parasitic, exploitive, authoritarian big government (the primary purpose of any bureaucracy is to hire and pay bureaucrats; once that is done, any secondary purpose might also be attempted), the same as Prohibition proved to be. I do not use any or recommend their use.
6) KJVO is the province of cranks and nutjobs, not of any serious, reputable Bible scholars.
7) I think we have the Five Fundamentals in common, though my definition of inerrancy is no doubt much more liberal than than yours. And probably the substance of the Nicene Creed too, whether or not you believe in using creeds.
You edited this message AFTER I had replied to it and the thread had progressed to another page. Not good, nor honest.
.1. You keep changing titles. Now you are a "moderate conservative Anglican" according to post #29 on this thread, or until you edit it. Woman's right to change her mind, I guess. But you began by saying you were "Anglo-Catholic Episcopalutheran (TEC & ELCA)" in post #7 quoted above. You seem not to place a solid definition on your use of words, but change a lot. What threw me was your incorporation of "Anglo-Catholic." Huh? But you don't believe in Mary worship, transubstantiation, or the sacraments? Do you revere the Pope as a spiritual world leader, Bishop of Rome, and inheritor of Peter's office? What claim can you make to the word "Catholic"? Or is it just "non-denominational" and whatever titles you choose to throw into your hodge-podge religion? To most reasonable people, words are used as a form of communication and mean things.
.2. I am not sure how you separate rock music from its culture. I've known Christians who have knocked themselves out for years attempting to define rock music and determine the difference between it, country, bluegrass, R&B, pop, or jazz. Regardless, you cannot just redefine it however you wish. It sprung up in the 1950's from Presley, the Beatles, and The Rolling Stones and reached its golden age in the 60's where it dramatically influenced the rebellion of that generation. Does it influence the culture, or did the culture influence it? Either way, it is as hard separating the two out as dividing the chicken from the egg. Obviously, the resultant change in culture as evidenced by Woodstock is not an argument for its godly influence.
.3. You progressed in reply #68 on this thread to say about D&D that it had "nothing at all to do with the occult." Here you had said that it could be. Which is it? Or should I ask, "Witch is it"? Regardless of your unsubstantiated pronouncements, it has long been noted to involve fantasy role play with witches, sorcerers, potions, magic spells, talismans, and such like. Role play is an often used psychological tool for behavior modification. I doubt that any Christian parent would support you in your efforts to modify the behavior of their youths into performing like the characters in just about any Dungeons and Dragons Fantasy Role Play scenario.
.4. And I am an ardent admirer of The Temperance Movement and strongly support the repeal of the 21st Amendment. Biblically, alcohol is deceitful. It was not allowed for priests, it was not allowed for holy Nazarites. So abstinence has a Biblical basis in a more holy walk, not the other way around. Prohibition came out of a period that even historians label as a "revival" in the U.S. and crime, filth, and addiction all hiked up when liquor began to flow again.
.5. Your argument for the legalization of drugs is irrational. You have swallowed the propaganda regarding prohibition that was used to repeal it. Just like with gambling, which organized crime has successfully foisted on many states as a means of revenue, shallow bureaucrats see legalization as a greater benefit because they can then tax it. Nevertheless, just like with alcohol and gambling, drugs are an addiction. If they are legalized, people are not going to freely restrict themselves from their use. Have you ever seen someone strung out on Meth? To legalize for the purpose of taxing such mind-altering and violence producing drugs for recreational purposes is the height of stupidity. Speak with any law enforcement officer who has had to deal with these and they will tell you that someone under the influence of these drugs today are the most dangerous for anybody -- officer or citizen -- to have to deal with. I watched in horror in the early morning hours as an addict was repeatedly tazed just a few feet outside my bedroom window. That person came very close to having to be shot to be stopped. And what he was trying to do to a little 3 year old (dropping her from 2nd story porch onto a chain link fence, then going after her to finish her off), he had to be stopped. I would recommend you look into the Reformer's Unanimous addictions ministry or go to a rehab center some time and see the dopeheads when they are first brought in. But I do not hold out hope that you would do so, you seem to already have your mind made and see this as just another liberty issue. Hope you do not have to deal with some addict someday. You would change your mind in a hurry.
.6. I am tempted to respond to your Ad Hominem with some of my own. But unlike the toleration of yours, most likely mine would make waves with the powers that be. But your position on the scriptures is what causes your problems in faith and consistency (Rom 10:17). I would more closely identify with the serious Bible scholars of past ages who believed in "sola scriptura" than participate in the rank idolatry of men pontificating with degrees as if they know more than God. In the conflict between man's wisdom and God's written revelation, the Bible wins each and every time.
7. You are right, I am a Baptist. They are more historically non-creedalists. And you are a bit hasty with the "5 Fundamentals," too. I am more of a Six Principle Baptist, myself. I prefer my foundational principles to come directly from scripture rather than a set of essays edited by even as good a man as R.A. Torrey. Again, you are likely right that our definitions would be different. Most likely of more than just inerrancy. It appears to me that your doctrinal stance and definitions tend to swing like the arc of a pendulum, and I prefer mine to be more consistent and objective.
.PappaBear said:Izdaari said:Neither 2 Cor 10:5 or Romans 12:2 have anything to do with D&D. I looked up Adventures in Odyssey, and it's some Focus on the Family (a source I am not inclined to trust) radio show with no apparent reason to believe they know anything about D&D. I agree that dabbling in the occult is dangerous. But D&D has nothing at all to do with the occult.
Dungeons & Dragons is a fantasy role play game. You do understand the word "fantasy" don't you?
2Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
You honestly believe that verse has nothing to do with a FANTASY role playing game? Especially one based upon witches, warlocks, spells, and such? What is the difference then that you make between fantasies and imaginations?
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Please explain how this Fantasy Role playing game helps in its mental exercises to prove what is good, what is acceptable, or what is perfect in the will of God? It does not, rather it fills the mind with things that need to be cleaned out by a transformational renewing of the mind afterwards.
Yes, both those verse apply. And here are some others for consideration, though I know from your statements already that you do not necessarily feel bound by scriptural direction.
Deut 18:
9 ¶ When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
What exactly is a wizard if it has nothing to do with the occult? How does this FRPG actually name demons and sorcerers with specific roles and powers in character interaction and not be considered occultish?
Deuteronomy was OT. There is also appeal to the New Testament Saints.
Ga 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
In this fantasy role play, characters are called upon to use sorcerer's wands, charms, and spoken spells which they "cast." Remember that this is not only fantasy, but it is "role play" where you interact with others in role play. You think it is okay to give someone a charm or cast a spell while acting out your imagination game?
Acts 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
You will likely claim this does not apply to D&D, either. However, it certainly does. This is not those practicing black magic, but people with nothing better to do than engage in impertinent and superfluous activities. The Greek word behind "curious arts" is elsewhere translated "busybodies." The context is what gives the occult connotation to them, and these books were obviously forerunners of your FRPG instructions. The early Christians not only burned them, but did so in the sight of everyone as a testimony they did not involve themselves in such fantasies, anymore.
Now, I'm curious. What is your beef with James Dobson's Focus On the Family? It cannot be his being a "crank or nutjob" as you edited your post #7 on this thread to insert as a diatribe against KJVO. Dobson is definitely not KJVO, nor is he even a "preacher." However, he is a psychologist, formerly practicing and very successful at it. He is the founder of Focus on the Family and has carried the torch for family issues for a long time. As a supporter of free drugs and alcohol, should I take it you are also a supporter of Sodomy and doing away with the age of consent and that is why you despise Focus On the Family who takes very public positions against those things? Would you define Dobson, Focus, and Odyssey as "IFBx"?
rsc2a said:....<convulsion snipped> What were you saying again?