I have seen some statements on this forum that give the impression that God learns.
What do you think?
What do you think?
Does God learn?
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ALAYMAN said:
This I don't grok. I'm not saying it's untrue, but I don't know how Jesus can be both fully God and fully man at the same time, and still have something he does not already know.
aALAYMAN said:
And I agree also. When the three of agree, it must be true! :-*
Luke 2:52: Jesus grew in wisdom....
But THAT is not the question...
But THAT is not the question...
Let me set this up differently and more poignantly...
If God's foreknowledge involves ascertaining information about man's decision... does that not mean that God is learning?
If God's foreknowledge involves ascertaining information about man's decision... does that not mean that God is learning?
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The Rogue Tomato said:
Say what????
Seriously, was that a typo, or am I out of the loop on today's lingo?
The Rogue Tomato said:
I hate to lay such a deep question at the feet of somebody else, but the kenosis is above my paygrade.
Sproul explained it one time to my satisfaction. In Christ the man we can have sayings like "no man knoweth the hour" and Christ meant it as a man, but as deity, the nature of deity of necessity is complete (omniscient in this case) within its own self-defining essence.
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FSSL said:
As a professed non-calvinist, I can't quite explain this in any deep and technical/philosophic terms, but God's omniscience simply is what it is, all-encompassing knowledge. The way I've thought about your question in the past is to say that God is outside of time, and therefore sees it all at once. That may be way too simple, but as it is, I think it makes sense to say that if his panoramic view is like that, it wouldn't involve learning.
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ALAYMAN said:The Rogue Tomato said:
Say what????
Seriously, was that a typo, or am I out of the loop on today's lingo?
The Rogue Tomato said:
I hate to lay such a deep question at the feet of somebody else, but the kenosis is above my paygrade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok
ALAYMAN said:
I agree with the timeless panorama thing. God created time, but is not bound by it like we are.
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Izdaari said:
Very true.
The idea promoted by "FOREknowledge" (tunnel-of-time) advocates involves a temporal aspect.
Even so, does God ever gain any information He did not have (i.e., learning), temporally or not?
C
christundivided
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FSSL said:
I wouldn't call it "learning".
I would ask the question. A serious question you might consider.
Does God reason? Is one thought based upon another. Is there sequential "thought" with God?
I would say fanatically..... YES.
In fact, I am sure you understand the phrase "precept upon precept"
Does this result in God "learning" something that He did not know? I would say NO. Yet, we need to make these distinctions.
C
christundivided
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FSSL said:
We've had this discuss to some degree in the past.
You know I do not believe God is outside of time. In fact, I think think the very term is somewhat of a oxymoron. Time at is core is nothing but sequence. Too many people get stuck in the passage of time and ignore what time really is.....
Time is cause and effect. One does not precede the other. One exist because of the other. God is cause and effect.
Also, Eternity isn't the absence of time. Its never ending time.
Okay... here is what I am getting at... In the book, "Openness of God," Richard Rice says (p 16),
"As an aspect of his experience, God's knowledge of the world is also dynamic rather than static. Instead of perceiving the entire course of human existence in one timeless moment, God comes to know events as they take place. He learns something from what transpires. We call this position the "open view of God" because it regards God as receptive to new experiences and as flexible in the way he works toward his objectives in the world."
Does anyone subscribe to this?
"As an aspect of his experience, God's knowledge of the world is also dynamic rather than static. Instead of perceiving the entire course of human existence in one timeless moment, God comes to know events as they take place. He learns something from what transpires. We call this position the "open view of God" because it regards God as receptive to new experiences and as flexible in the way he works toward his objectives in the world."
Does anyone subscribe to this?
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FSSL said:
Not I, said the little red tomato.
The Rogue Tomato said:
I have already made the mistake and caught it before I posted about calling you "Rotten Tomatoes" LOL!!!I am glad to see your Reformed ways!
C
christundivided
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FSSL said:
No. I don't.
Yet, I will say there some very compelling arguments made by some Open Theist. (Richard Rice isn't one of them). Arguments that people simply cry "heretic" at without even taking the time to really explain why they can't be true from the Scriptures. While I do not ascribe to such a teaching. There is one verse that comes to mind that I think is rather difficult to explain. In fact, I don't know how to logically explain it. I roll it around in my head from time to time.
Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.