The Rogue Tomato said:
Ditto that!
Does God learn?
- Thread starter FSSL
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Ditto that!
christundivided said:
Phew!! Trying to catch up today after all my running...
Yes. This does appear to support the view that God is learning.
However, in verse 29, the same phrase is used to describe Israel. It is not as if they did not know something. The people of Israel did not take seriously what they knew their end would be.
God will "see to it" that their end will be carried out.
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Remember that a lot of texts about what God is thinking/saying are anthropomorphism.
The Rogue Tomato said:
Yep! Great point!
Ephesians 2:1-6 KJV
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
This would indicate a no to me.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:This would indicate a no to me.
C
christundivided
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The Rogue Tomato said:
Thsi can't possibly fit thus situation. It is a introspective declaration of action.
C
christundivided
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FSSL said:
I can't see the correlation between the two. Verse 20 is obviosuly introspective while verse 29 is extrospective.
I'm not trying to read anything into the verse. Just taking it at face value.
I agree that it is unnecessary to see this passage as an anthropomorphism.
Here is a good explanation from Expositors: “I will … see what their end will be†(v.20) does not suppose that the Lord did not know what would transpire, even as Israel failed to understand (v.29). It is rather a declaration that he will see that those punishments do come. The two clauses—“I will hide my face from them†and “I will … see what their end will beâ€â€”are explicitly parallel. (ExBC, Deut)
Here is a good explanation from Expositors: “I will … see what their end will be†(v.20) does not suppose that the Lord did not know what would transpire, even as Israel failed to understand (v.29). It is rather a declaration that he will see that those punishments do come. The two clauses—“I will hide my face from them†and “I will … see what their end will beâ€â€”are explicitly parallel. (ExBC, Deut)
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christundivided
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FSSL said:
You're ignoring the word "what". Can you explain "what" in the sentence structure?
Grammatically the explanation you gave doesn't fit. Logically the the two clauses aren't parallel. One precedes the other as being the cause of their end.
christundivided said:
Actually, yes it does:
The key word being
, which has the following possible translations:
Translation from BDB.
There is definitely grammatical support for his interpretation within the Hebrew. Interestingly enough, it is the same root word which refers to prophets who declare the word of the Lord.
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christundivided
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BandGuy said:
I believe you're straining the relationship. There is basically no English Translation of the MT that choose such a rendering.
I do believe there is simpler explanation.
The LXX renders the verse
Deu 32:20 and said, I will turn away My face from them, and will show what shall happen to them in the last days; for it is a perverse generation, sons in whom is no faith.
A
AresMan
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Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
If this is not anthropomorphic and anthropopathic, even Open Theism is too generous: God is not even omnipresent. He does not even know the past or the present exhaustively!
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
If this is not anthropomorphic and anthropopathic, even Open Theism is too generous: God is not even omnipresent. He does not even know the past or the present exhaustively!
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christundivided
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AresMan said:
LOL... is anthropomorphism a good thing?
Just what good can come from such?
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Almost always, whenever we attempt to discuss what God can or can not do, we will fail. Neither human language, nor human logic can encompass God.
Though we can never fully understand, we can understand in part, and trying to is a Good thing. Perhaps what follows can help.
There are 2 different ways of knowing, one is the factual knowledge, and another is the experiential. A Biblical example is when a man "knows" his wife, which is an euphemism for sex.
As a factual, all the people that we call the Trinity (one God in 3 people), know everything from before time existed. In this respect God does not learn.
However, while JC is Eternal, He began to exist at the incarnation (explaining the previous theophanies is beyond this post, and I'm not exactly sure about them). In that sense, JC first knew pain, hunger, needing a diaper change and the taste of brest milk sometime around 5BC (give or take a year). At the time JC divested Himself of His Divine power and perogatives.
Clearly prior to the resurrection JC was NOT omniscient: He did not know the time of His own return. This is why He is spoken of as intimately knowing all our infirmities. He EXPERIENCED being surprised (for example, at the faith of the centurion) which requires ignorance. Now JC is back in full fellowship with the Father and Spirit, and He is again pan-omni. Therefore, the 2 other members of the Trinity now have the experiental knowledge of hunger and all other human limitations.
So experientially, all the people of the Trinity learned that which they already factually knew.
JR
Though we can never fully understand, we can understand in part, and trying to is a Good thing. Perhaps what follows can help.
There are 2 different ways of knowing, one is the factual knowledge, and another is the experiential. A Biblical example is when a man "knows" his wife, which is an euphemism for sex.
As a factual, all the people that we call the Trinity (one God in 3 people), know everything from before time existed. In this respect God does not learn.
However, while JC is Eternal, He began to exist at the incarnation (explaining the previous theophanies is beyond this post, and I'm not exactly sure about them). In that sense, JC first knew pain, hunger, needing a diaper change and the taste of brest milk sometime around 5BC (give or take a year). At the time JC divested Himself of His Divine power and perogatives.
Clearly prior to the resurrection JC was NOT omniscient: He did not know the time of His own return. This is why He is spoken of as intimately knowing all our infirmities. He EXPERIENCED being surprised (for example, at the faith of the centurion) which requires ignorance. Now JC is back in full fellowship with the Father and Spirit, and He is again pan-omni. Therefore, the 2 other members of the Trinity now have the experiental knowledge of hunger and all other human limitations.
So experientially, all the people of the Trinity learned that which they already factually knew.
JR
You refer to yourself as a "Trinitarian" "Reformed" "Orthodox." I don't think you know what those labels mean.
Jesus did not begin to exist at the incarnation.Read John 1.1
The other Persons of the godhead did not "learn" through the experiences of Christ.
Jesus did not begin to exist at the incarnation.Read John 1.1
The other Persons of the godhead did not "learn" through the experiences of Christ.
It is a shame...
FSSL said:
Haven't read the other answers yet. First, to learn means to know something one didn't know before - since God is all-knowing, that cannot be, so no.
In addition, God is unchanging -- He is perfection in every area. To "learn" would be to change in some way, so no again.