Drinking

ALAYMAN said:
The argument I invoked abou the weaker brother has NOTHING to do with unbelievers.  You introduced that canard.
Click to expand...

If you think I was presenting an exegesis of 1 Corinthians 10, perhaps you should also nail me for mentioning Ephesus and Smyrna as well.

Before I even called your eisigesis out you used these words in relation to me....
Click to expand...

I presented an APPLICATION of concepts THROUGHOUT the NT and placed them into a single illustration. I make the point that we should not drink around weak Christians and you STILL debate that point.

You obviously don't know what the difference is between an abstentionist and a teetotaler.  I said I was the former, and not the latter.  Find out what the difference is ...
Click to expand...

Okay... whatever. I don't see a difference between the two terms. But it is hardly worth debating. You don't drink. We get it.

I got Chuckbob's post and found it an attempt to interject some humor. Lighten up Alayman!
 
Okay, if you're going to use this verse to justify never drinking wine, ever, even when you're not around a weak brother:

21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
Click to expand...

Then at least be consistent.  Never eat meat again.  Not ever.  No more steak, burgers, bacon, chicken, etc., for you.  Do not let those evil meats taint your lips.  In fact, if you really want to be sure you don't offend a brother, stop eating altogether.  Period. 

You'll get to heaven.  In fact, you'll get to heaven faster.  And I bet there's even a section for "special" people like you.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Okay, if you're going to use this verse to justify never drinking wine, ever, even when you're not around a weak brother:

21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
Click to expand...

Then at least be consistent.  Never eat meat again.  Not ever.  No more steak, burgers, bacon, chicken, etc., for you.  Do not let those evil meats taint your lips.  In fact, if you really want to be sure you don't offend a brother, stop eating altogether.  Period. 

You'll get to heaven.  In fact, you'll get to heaven faster.  And I bet there's even a section for "special" people like you.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Well said.
 
You know... I gave up trying to please people a long time ago. Now, I might not drink a beer around someone to avoid an argument, but I refuse not to drink a beer around a "weaker brother" just to please him by obeying his desire.

This not what Paul is teaching. Some people refuse to grow up. Those who reject the drinking of alcohol and certain meats are "WEAK".  The Scriptures declare they ARE WEAK. Our goal is not to allow them to remain WEAK. They should "GROW UP" and realize the truth.

I'm not going to feel guilty for drinking around some supposed WEAK BROTHER that has been believing such silliness for 30 years. Get a grip man. Wise up and see the truth. Your weakness is not my penance.
 
FSSL said:
ALAYMAN said:
The argument I invoked abou the weaker brother has NOTHING to do with unbelievers.  You introduced that canard.
Click to expand...

If you think I was presenting an exegesis of 1 Corinthians 10, perhaps you should also nail me for mentioning Ephesus and Smyrna as well.

Before I even called your eisigesis out you used these words in relation to me....
Click to expand...

I presented an APPLICATION of concepts THROUGHOUT the NT and placed them into a single illustration. I make the point that we should not drink around weak Christians and you STILL debate that point.

You obviously don't know what the difference is between an abstentionist and a teetotaler.  I said I was the former, and not the latter.  Find out what the difference is ...
Click to expand...

Okay... whatever. I don't see a difference between the two terms. But it is hardly worth debating. You don't drink. We get it.
Click to expand...

Ya know, I ain't MUCH of a fisherman, but I know when I luckily snag one and he don't want to get into the net that he'll do anything to get off the hook.  You figure out that analogy. 

Hint: THOU ART THE MAN!:D

FSSL said:
I got Chuckbob's post and found it an attempt to interject some humor. Lighten up Alayman!
Click to expand...

YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!!!!!!11!!!!!1!


;)
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Okay, if you're going to use this verse to justify never drinking wine, ever, even when you're not around a weak brother:

21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
Click to expand...

Then at least be consistent.  Never eat meat again.  Not ever.  No more steak, burgers, bacon, chicken, etc., for you.  Do not let those evil meats taint your lips.  In fact, if you really want to be sure you don't offend a brother, stop eating altogether.  Period. 

You'll get to heaven.  In fact, you'll get to heaven faster.  And I bet there's even a section for "special" people like you.
Click to expand...

"special"

Is that condescension?  Derision?  Contempt?  Paul would tell you to drink up, but don't hold the weaker brother in such disdain.

You're a one trick pony man.

cu said:
You know... I gave up trying to please people a long time ago. Now, I might not drink a beer around someone to avoid an argument, but I refuse not to drink a beer around a "weaker brother" just to please him by obeying his desire.

This not what Paul is teaching. Some people refuse to grow up. Those who reject the drinking of alcohol and certain meats are "WEAK".  The Scriptures declare they ARE WEAK. Our goal is not to allow them to remain WEAK. They should "GROW UP" and realize the truth.

I'm not going to feel guilty for drinking around some supposed WEAK BROTHER that has been believing such silliness for 30 years. Get a grip man. Wise up and see the truth. Your weakness is not my penance.
Click to expand...

We've been really amicable in our posting to each other for so long now, but ya know it had to come to an end sometime. ;)

You couldn't be further from being Scripturally right on this issue if you tried.  If you would truly do that thing which makes a weaker brother "stumble" (sin), then you are willfully violating the word of God.  The principle doesn't allow for your strong desire to do whatever you want regardless if the weaker brother does not grow as quick as you'd like. 

Now I do agree with the point you're making if you insert "pharisee" for the "weaker brother".  Many people will wrongly pull the "weaker brother" card when they are actually just trying to get you to abide by their own personal convictions.  That is a different beast than a weaker brother who truly cannot overcome his conscience due to his own weakness and succeptibility to sin as a result.
 
Chuck, I like ya man, but all that you just said was effectively "I like my tradition more than I care about what the Bible says on the subject", which at its core is nothing more than vain humanistic philosophy.
[/quote]

Yes, I like my tradition much better that arguing as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. That's exactly what this issue amounts to. Obviously, there are conflicting verses concerning the consumption of alcohol. Everybody's just going to have to get over it because that's just the way it is. There's just no way to say that there is a single position on this matter. Of course, growing up all of the pro alcohol verses were very carefully overlooked and never mentioned because they shot holes in the party line and made for uncomfortable questions. That causes a man to ask what else he's been lied to about.

ChuckBob
 
ALAYMAN said:
You couldn't be further from being Scripturally right on this issue if you tried.  If you would truly do that thing which makes a weaker brother "stumble" (sin), then you are willfully violating the word of God.  The principle doesn't allow for your strong desire to do whatever you want regardless if the weaker brother does not grow as quick as you'd like. 
Click to expand...

LOL.... you're being entirely idealistic without any thought to practicality. I am not going to give a foot hold for a weaker brother (such as yourself) to believe a lie. Its okay for me to drink a beer. Its okay for me to do it in front of people that don't like it. Its okay for me to not care what they think about it... IF... they are just being a pious bunch of wind bags trying to project their weakness on EVERYONE ELSE.

Sorry.... I don't think there are lot of alcoholics out there just waiting to find someone that calls on the name of Christ....so they... under God's blessing.... can return to drunkenness.

It is clear from the Scriptures that Paul was looking to establish a compromise in-which brothers in Christ wouldn't be at each others throats in a endless argument or something so silly as what some eats or drinks. What someone eats or drinks has nothing to do with Kingdom of God.

Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Now I do agree with the point you're making if you insert "pharisee" for the "weaker brother".  Many people will wrongly pull the "weaker brother" card when they are actually just trying to get you to abide by their own personal convictions.  That is a different beast than a weaker brother who truly cannot overcome his conscience due to his own weakness and succeptibility to sin as a result.
Click to expand...

Do you care to name someone you have in mind??? Do you really know someone like this? They may have been abundant in the early church were there were many many Jewish believers converting to Christianity. Such can not be said of the largely Gentile church that exists today. Its called a practical context in which the text is written. There are not a bunch of Gentiles running around claiming you can't eat THIS....

Which is exactly Rogue's point. You guys eat anything you want and could care less what someone thinks of your "diet".... Yet, you refuse to see the truth when it comes to "wine".

You're being hypocritical and you're the only one that can't see it. Open those "weak eyes" brother.... :)


 
ChuckBob said:
Yes, I like my tradition much better that arguing as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. That's exactly what this issue amounts to. Obviously, there are conflicting verses concerning the consumption of alcohol. Everybody's just going to have to get over it because that's just the way it is. There's just no way to say that there is a single position on this matter. Of course, growing up all of the pro alcohol verses were very carefully overlooked and never mentioned because they shot holes in the party line and made for uncomfortable questions. That causes a man to ask what else he's been lied to about.

ChuckBob
Click to expand...

Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.  I've got no problem with that, so long as your choices are governed by a conscientious consideration of the full spectrum of what the Bible says.  And for the record, I never said that there's only a "single position on this matter".  Matter of fact, I explicitly said that though I am an abstentionist (not a teetotaler, meaning that though I abstain, I don't force my scruples and convictions regarding alcohol on others) that some contexts may provide for moderate consumption.

cu said:
LOL.... you're being entirely idealistic without any thought to practicality. I am not going to give a foot hold for a weaker brother (such as yourself) to believe a lie. Its okay for me to drink a beer. Its okay for me to do it in front of people that don't like it. Its okay for me to not care what they think about it... IF... they are just being a pious bunch of wind bags trying to project their weakness on EVERYONE ELSE.
Click to expand...

If you would drink in front of a weaker brother to the point that he stumbles, then you are sinning, and that's really the end of the story.  Paul made it clear that he would forego his liberty so that a babe on the milk wouldn't be castaway.  THAT, is a stronger brother, not one who insists on using their liberty at all costs.

 
ALAYMAN said:
If you would drink in front of a weaker brother to the point that he stumbles, then you are sinning, and that's really the end of the story.  Paul made it clear that he would forego his liberty so that a babe on the milk wouldn't be castaway.  THAT, is a stronger brother, not one who insists on using their liberty at all costs.
Click to expand...

I never said I would use my liberty at all cost. If I really knew drinking a beer in front of a certain brother would cause him to stumble.... then I wouldn't. The beer is not THAT important to me... and contrary to popular belief.... neither is being "right" about it.

I just think you're not being practical. Such situation do not often exist. I'm not going to worry about being at a restaurant drinking a beer.... wondering if someone I know might walk in and not like it. I have message for such people.... "GROW UP"....




 
christundivided said:
I never said I would use my liberty at all cost. If I really knew drinking a beer in front of a certain brother would cause him to stumble.... then I wouldn't. The beer is not THAT important to me... and contrary to popular belief.... neither is being "right" about it.

I just think you're not being practical. Such situation do not often exist. I'm not going to worry about being at a restaurant drinking a beer.... wondering if someone I know might walk in and not like it. I have message for such people.... "GROW UP"....
Click to expand...

You had asked about the practicality of it in modern times, and you allude to that notion again.  FSSL has called for real wine in the "communion" table.  My former elderly soulwinning partner, now with the Lord, was pretty much a lifelong drunk.  To put real wine in the Lord's Supper wouldn've caused him to stumble.  That's pretty practical.  I could name others, but the point of the principle is that in such a hedonistic and drunkardly society, I forego my liberty in this area because it is not necessary.  On the other hand, the foolish proposition that Tomato put forth is on its face idiotic.  You need food to survive, but you don't need alcohol.
 
FSSL said:
Biker said:
I have no disagreements with anything you've posted. I believe it was a common drink at the time FOR MEDICINAL USES. Bad water.
Click to expand...

I beg to disagree. I doubt that Jesus' purpose was to make medicine for the marriage feast.
Even if you think it is for "medicinal uses" we are being told in the OP that it is not.

People who drink have a too casual an attitude about sex. I don't want adulterers around me (socially) so to cut out the drinkers is the easiest way.
Click to expand...

Well... Jesus took a different approach.
Click to expand...
I can't see why you don't see it. If I could post my reports here, I would. I got very sick off just drinking water that wine could've prevented per Timothy.

And That medicine tasted good. God made it. It regularly saved lives back then. Christ came to save us. We aren't to follow in every one of his footsteps, he knew it wouldnt' get anyone drunk (intoxicated). Or somehow he prevented it, who knows how. He also turned over the tables on the tax collectors, something I'd like to do at the IRS office but that didn't mean he ordained that behavior for me.

Regaring the OP,  Jr Church already posted something to the effect that she has no stomach ailments or infirmities so doesn't need Wine. It's the reason I ran to the store, she reminded me I needed it right now for that exact ailment. And my bloating is down 25%. So she endorses it for medicinal uses even if her initial OP post was not clear

Back in the day, remember wine saved lives. Everyone probably, or many people, needed to drink it almost regularly. It's death without it. Christ is life.  I've tasted wine at the Lutheran Church once, it was delicious. I imagine  His was more than comparable. To celebrate it nowadays is foolish. Unless you celebrate it in the manner he has set fourth it be used, and most people don't view it that way. I didn't, and i know better. The Public Lab Report is too large a file, it won't let me attach it here. I even edited it & my sonogram results but it won't let me. Bad water can kill you really fast.


jesus was very restrained in who he hung out with. His only purpose for socializing out with Sinners was to save them. those that wallowed openly in their sin were not of his companions. I honestly have not that restraint, we let anyone ride with us. And sometimes invite them to accompany us different places but never at our home until we've known them for a long time. On a social level to be close friends, overall, drinkers are not my bag of tea. Though my best friend is a drinker, and former alcoholic,,,, he slipped in thankfully. But he's pretty wild.





 
Biker said:
jesus was very restrained in who he hung out with. His only purpose for socializing out with Sinners was to save them. those that wallowed openly in their sin were not of his companions.
Click to expand...

And yet He made plenty of wine for a wedding.....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top