Drinking

[bgwilkinson]

Deu 14:26  And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, (KJV)

Is wine and strong drink here redundant?
And what if someone's soul lusted after a prostitute?
What if Billy cracked corn liquor, would we care?

Ooh, I would like to hear an answer to this.

My response: Shelve the KJV and start reading a modern version before some gets hurt. The KJV's "lust" is unfortunate.

I included the ESV hoping to illustrate one of the problems inherent in using a 1600s translation in the 2000s.
Reading the KJV in our day is like reading the Bible in very poor light, almost in the dark.
Modern readers often think they understand a 400 year old translation when they do not understand.

Deu 14:26  and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. (ESV)

These were God's people not the unsaved.

I was hoping someone might notice the source of the money for the party.

 

[JrChurch]

once again.... you guys prove that todays revolutionary is tomorrows tyrant by pretending to free people from one clergymans preferences only to enslave them to another........... yours......

This is such an astute observation.  I tried to make a similar point in another thread, but I lacked your clarity.  Well done….again!

 

[Recovering IFB]

Ally, I have never used this as a "proof text" to party hearty, but what I believe it shows that the personal use of alcohol was perfectly acceptable behavior. As many have posted, we have a narrow view of alcohol in certain circles here in "Christian America", whereas in certain parts of the world, fellow brothers and sisters don't look at it with such conviction but rather that was what they were raised with. My grandparents are form Portugal, and wine was a normal part of an evening meal, some of my relatives still make their own wine at home, like they do in Portugal.
Wine and strong drink were perfectly acceptable in OT Jerusalem.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Ally, I have never used this as a "proof text" to party hearty, but what I believe it shows that the personal use of alcohol was perfectly acceptable behavior. As many have posted, we have a narrow view of alcohol in certain circles here in "Christian America", whereas in certain parts of the world, fellow brothers and sisters don't look at it with such conviction but rather that was what they were raised with. My grandparents are form Portugal, and wine was a normal part of an evening meal, some of my relatives still make their own wine at home, like they do in Portugal.
Wine and strong drink were perfectly acceptable in OT Jerusalem.

And I bet all those who say alcohol is perfectly acceptable would say showing charity to the needy is perfectly acceptable, too. 

So there's no hypocrisy or contradiction, as far as I can see. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

i wouldn;t say "perfectly" acceptable.... it was acceptable at the right times and seasons....

I would say it was perfectly acceptable:
Deut 14:26
Psalm 104:14,15
If it's so bad why does God say He would bless people with it?;
Duet 7:13, 11:14
Proverbs 3:10
Besides; God is pleased with it, Judges 9:13

i have been around alcohol food all my life....... i have even served it on the boat i worked on........ i am not saying any consumption of alcohol  food even in small amounts.. is a sin........ but i do know without a doubt that any consumption of alcohol. food.. even in small amounts.... changes people....... and that change starts the moment the first sip of alcohol bite of food enters their mouth........ ... for some people under certain conditions that might be a good thing...... but for others....... it;s not.......... and i have seen it first hand........ [/font][/size][/color]

Gluttony has it's issues too

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I agree Aleshanee... but someone equated this passage with lust with prostitutes.

i know... i saw that..... and i still don;t understand why he did it... unless it was to demonstrate how absurd it was to take that scripture to mean we are all commanded to do the same thing israel was any time we want... by being absurd himself....... in the context of the scripture it is clearly understood that these things used in the feast were tithes from produce grown on the persons farm or raised on his property....... things to be eaten or drank.... and if those things had to be sold the money was to be used for other things to eat and drink...... there was nothing in there about hiring prostitutes........

but from what i understand.... this feast described in deuteronomy was only done once every three years........ it was not like the lords supper in the new testament which was done..."as often as we shall...".....taking license with something that God designed or prescribed for specific purposes can have serious consequences...... even the lords super was being abused at one time in scripture........... abusing food will make you fat and send you to your maker before your time.... plus it will also ruin your testimony.....but abusing alcohol will not only kill the abuser but will cause him to abuse and kill others....... both by accident and on purpose......... it emboldens people for whom common sense and even cowardice might be their only protection to do things leading to their own destruction.... and the destruction of others......it;s effects on peoples decision making skills are well recorded all through history and in police reports all over the country....... there has to be greater limits to it;s usage than there are for other gifts of God to mankind......... 

It's not a matter of Israel then vs. us now.  They were instructed to celebrate with any food and drink they want, including wine or strong drink.  They weren't commanded to drink wine or strong drink. 

 

[FSSL]

The fact that God gave strong warnings about drunkenness indicates that they were able to drink. There was a limit. People will always abuse God's gifts. That does not mean that we are to allow those abuses to diminish God's gifts.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Deu 14:26  And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, (KJV)

Is wine and strong drink here redundant?
And what if someone's soul lusted after a prostitute?
What if Billy cracked corn liquor, would we care?

Ooh, I would like to hear an answer to this.

My response: Shelve the KJV and start reading a modern version before some gets hurt. The KJV's "lust" is unfortunate.

Here are various renderings of the phrase in question, once again pointing out the safety of multiple translations and the veracity of Augustine's, "A Variety of translations is profitable for finding out the sense of the Scriptures."

Coverdale Bible 1535 has "for all that thy soul desyreth"

Thomas Matthew 1537 has "what soever thy soul lusteth after"

Great Bible 1541 has "for whatsoever they soul lusteth after"

Bishops 1568 has "for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after"

Geneva Bible 1583 has "for whatsoever thine heart desireth"

Douay Bible  1610 has "whatsoever pleaseth thee"

Jewish Publication Society 1917 has "for whatsoever thy soul desireth" (Deu 14:26 JPS)

Brenton's LXX has "for whatsoever thy soul shall desire" (Deu 14:26 LXE)

Targum Onkelos 1862-1865 has  "for whatever thy soul may please" (Deu 14:26 OKE)

Isaac Leeser Jewish Bible 1853 has "for whatsoever thy soul longeth after" (Deu 14:26 LEE)


Here is the Hebrew Lexicon definition of the Hebrew word in the KJV and others listed above as lusteth.
Coverdale and Geneva had it better translated in the 1500s.
The lusteth translation seems limited to the 1500s and early 1600s.

0183 hw;a' 'avah {aw-vaw'}
Meaning:  1) desire, incline, covet, wait longingly, wish, sigh, want, be greedy, prefer 1a) (Piel) to desire, crave (food and drink) 1b) (Hithpael) to desire, long for, lust after (of bodily appetites)
Origin:  a primitive root; TWOT - 40; v
Usage:  AV - desire 17, lust 4, longed 3, covet 2; 26

KJV translates it desire 17 times, lust 4 times, longed 3 times and covet 2 times.

While the KJV translation is not technically wrong, it does give people a false impression of what the Hebrew says.

Do you think maybe the KJV translators wanted to give the impression of a drunken orgy?

 

[Recovering IFB]

[size=12pt]no kidding?..... then start a separate thread about gluttony and argue your points against it there....... but don;t pretend in this thread that they are even close to being the same.......... ... i never saw anyone raped by a glutton who was emboldened to act on his perversion by consuming a super sized meal....... and never heard of a glutton having sex with his own daughters after gorging himself with food either.........

http://allenbwest.com/2014/05/ny-man-kills-wife-cooking-wrong-dinner/

when i said i have been around alcohol all my life i wasn;t kidding ......i have seen people die from it and kill because of it... and i;ve been a victim of people that were drunk on alcohol too....more times than i can count..

And im sure if you poll everyone on this forum, including myself, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who hasn't been touched by the subject

....and if you want to play the same dirty little game rsc2a does ...  crossing out what people say and correcting their posts to suit yourself.... then you better know what it is you are talking about.......... coz you are splashing around in the shallow end of this pool right now....... but i can and will drag you into the deep end, if that;s where you want to go........i'll tell you the whole story from start to finish.... case by case if that what you want to read..... ... .. but neither one of us might still be here when it;s all over......

Oh and calling him names like "rancid squirrel carcass" is the deep end of the pool? thats your high road? Do you think your crap doesn't stink either? your reputation is scolding everyone one around here who doesn't agree with you! You think your so special?, get over yourself!! you are a quintessential fundy deep to the bone!!

 

[JrChurch]

Oh and calling him names like "rancid squirrel carcass" is the deep end of the pool? thats your high road? Do you think your crap doesn't stink either? your reputation is scolding everyone one around here who doesn't agree with you! You think your so special?, get over yourself!! you are a quintessential fundy deep to the bone!!

There is so much nonsense in this paragraph that it isn't worth the time to refute it. 

 

[Bob H]

Another fine example of Alayman's exegetical contributions.

RSC2A... how about I give that $10 to Alayman to help him start his library?

There isn't anything to exegete.  I objected to your use of I Timothy 4:1-3 (specifically singling out only one of Paul's admonitions from the list he gave Timothy) and your claim that Timothy was in error.  You left that context completely and fled to another chapter, then to commentaries which were built on conjecture.  That isn't exegesis, it's speculation.  No need to exegete that which is mis-applied and out of context.

Your opinion of this passage lacks familiarity with the scholarship regarding this passage.

Your opinion is still a speculation on your part WITHOUT corroborating support and WITHOUT any attempt to understand the syntax of the verse.

Since you reject an interpretative option, certainly you must have identified a problem with the Greek syntax. What is wrong with my parsing?

Again, if you apply I Tim 4:3 directly to Timothy personally about his lack of drinking then you would have to apply v's 1 & 2 of Ch. 4 to Timothy also. I'll give Timothy the benefit of the doubt over a "perhaps".

 

[ALAYMAN]

Again, if you apply I Tim 4:3 directly to Timothy personally about his lack of drinking then you would have to apply v's 1 & 2 of Ch. 4 to Timothy also. I'll give Timothy the benefit of the doubt over a "perhaps".

Well said Bob.  It's funny how selective people can be in using Scripture to support their bias.  I believe the latin term is A Priori.  I also find it amusing how Deuteronomy can be used to support drinking booze but not used for determining clothing choices for genders. 

 

[Bruh]

Funny how they say it is o.k to drink alcohol, in moderation of course.  But, when it comes to Marijuana, scripture is silent.  So does that mean that Marijuana if smoked in moderation, is o.k? 

I am not hyperbole this one.  No one has answered me yet.  And don't say, you're dumb or stupid or say that I need to study scripture. 

Just prove to me that smoking Marijuana is a sin.  Thanks! 

Chapter and verse, Please!   

 

[Biker]

Since you deny the significant number of clear uniquivocal Scriptures about God's gifts of wine and alcohol, what would it take to convince you not to use marijuana?

Maybe I missed something...quite easily done.. but where did he say he used marijuana? and if so, why does he need to stop? Is it not for medicinal uses?
oh and if you haven't answered, would you mind giving an answer to this?

 

[Biker]

Whether he uses it or not... the argument goes both ways. If he cannot handle the clarity of Scripture, he really isn't interested in an chapter/verse.

So you're not going to answer, though I asked? that's fine, whatever...

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Since the "I've seen alcohol destroy many lives" argument is so often used by so many people, I thought I'd perform a scientific experiment to determine if it's the alcohol that destroys lives.  While I was at it, I figured I'd couple the experiment with one that stems from a similar argument.

I put several bottles of wine and liquor on my kitchen table, right next to a fully loaded AR-15 rifle.  I instructed the alcohol to go out and destroy as many lives as possible.  And I instructed the AR-15 to go out and kill a bunch of school kids. 

So far, no lives have been destroyed, and no school kids were killed.  The problem must be elsewhere. 

 

[rsc2a]

Funny how they say it is o.k to drink alcohol, in moderation of course.  But, when it comes to Marijuana, scripture is silent.  So does that mean that Marijuana if smoked in moderation, is o.k? 

Sure. I have no problem with it. If it is legal to smoke weed where you live and you can smoke responsibility so that it doesn't negatively affect your physical and mental abilities,  have at it.

 

[Biker]

Funny how they say it is o.k to drink alcohol, in moderation of course.  But, when it comes to Marijuana, scripture is silent.  So does that mean that Marijuana if smoked in moderation, is o.k? 

Sure. I have no problem with it. If it is legal to smoke weed where you live and you can smoke responsibility so that it doesn't negatively affect your physical and mental abilities,  have at it.

I don't loose any sleep over those who smoke weed in moderation, every once in a while. Probably because it always seems medicinal, the hyper ones love it.
My Dad does it about once a month
Jmho but since God gave us that herb, I'm not sure the government has the right to trump God and outlaw it

 

[ALAYMAN]

Again, if you apply I Tim 4:3 directly to Timothy personally about his lack of drinking then you would have to apply v's 1 & 2 of Ch. 4 to Timothy also. I'll give Timothy the benefit of the doubt over a "perhaps".

BUD, Prove why "you have to apply." That is called a "fallacy of the excluded middle."

I freely admit that it is an option. However, your position, as well as Alayman's, is based on conjecture without COORoboration.

You have all gone ROGUE. We have yet to see a commentary suggest that Timothy was taught abstinence by his mother/grandmother.

Alayman has not even given this passage a SCHLITZ of exegetical consideration. He says there is no need to exegete. We are left with his opinion.

DOS EQUIS I asked him to provide a commentary to support his position. Remember, he said I made this up. That revealed that he had no clue what was said in the commentaries. ABITA he doesn't have a commentary.

This is my last attempt to reason with you.  My original complaint was that you brought I Tim 4:3 into the discussion, which has nothing to do with alcohol whatsoever.  Then you fled to the next chapter in attempt to link the two concepts.  At that point you attempted to say Timothy was guilty of some form of asceticism, all based on conjecture, without one iota of context.  That is so like an IFBxer to use a text for a pretext in order to launch into what he wants to prove, rather than what the Scripture actually says.  Hyles had nothing on you.

 

[ALAYMAN]

when someone makes the smug statement that what i experienced at the hands of people abusing alcohol was no different than what he and every other forum member here experienced... then tries to nullify my non-descriptive post about a very devastating experience... by making a ridiculous comparison between alcohol abuse and love of food.... then i feel like telling the truth exactly as it happened with full detail is exactly whats needed.......

and i never said all consumption of alcohol was a sin either.... or that it wasn;t a gift from God....so i don;t even know why that is being brought up......  the point i tried to make was that alcohol consumption changes people.... even when consumed in moderation... and that;s a point i believe even scripture does not refute...but your friend couldn;t bear to hear it... .. he took it very personal... and made his argument personal...... and then he goes about arguing his points as if he;s inebriated at his keyboard...... trying to reason with him is exactly like trying to reason with a drunk.... and it always has been....... maybe my biggest mistake here was in trying to do so...... like i told someone in another thread about a totally different issue.... sometimes we just have to let the evidence speak for itself....... that;s what the prosecutors did in my moms case..... and she lost........

At the risk of sounding like a total Fanboy,  I love your clarity of thought, and your posting moxie.  Several posts today have been abso-stinkin-lutely Grand Slams.  You ROCK!