For CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone

[Mathew Ward]

Bible doctrine, but lets not suppose it was limited to the doctrines salvation, but included those of separation and sanctification.

If you have Biblical support for adding separation and sanctification in Acts 2 for church membership I'm open to those verses.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Bible doctrine, but lets not suppose it was limited to the doctrines salvation, but included those of separation and sanctification.

If you have Biblical support for adding separation and sanctification in Acts 2 for church membership I'm open to those verses.

The term Apostles doctrine would have included all the doctrines contained in scripture. Pretty sure that is obvious.

 

[rsc2a]

Bible doctrine, but lets not suppose it was limited to the doctrines salvation, but included those of separation and sanctification.

Separation...

...strange. So a community of individuals who often attended synagogue with non-converted Jews; a community of individuals that outsiders thought were still Jewish in faith; a community of individuals that still kept Torah in many cases; a community of individuals that still identified themselves as Jewish culturally, ethnically, and religiously were practicing separation IFB-style?

 

[subllibrm]

I am still trying to figure out why the CCM question always jumps to "what is used in Church worship" as if there is no other time music is listened to and enjoyed.

BTW I have a friend who is very much apposed to CCM (read modern praise and worship [read further, new music he doesn't know]) in church who has his truck radio preset to the local country station. Nothing like demanding moral purity in church music while you listen about "cigarettes and whiskey and wild, wild wimmin" as you drive out of the church parking lot.

I have yet to see anyone on the "pro CCM" side make any kind of demand that the "anti" crowd change anything in their personal use or enjoyment of music; corporately in worship or personally in private.

OTOH IP is the one who declared all CCM "off limits" to Christians (no distinction made between corporate or personal that I recall). Well, except for the songs he personally likes and approves of.

Feel free to sign up for the Frag/IP discernment in music "they way we like it" class. You will receive a mimeographed copy of an approved song once a month when you send a SASE to "Good Music, Cause We Said So, Ministries" - PO Box 6/8, Key of C Georgia

 

[Mathew Ward]

If they legitimately become members of a congregation, shouldn't they have a say?

Depends. Initially, no. I don't mean they don't get to vote, but when new people join, I remind them that they are joining us, not the opposite. I also explain what we are as far as a church goes, including music. If they want to join a CCM playing church, don't join here. No one is forced to join. What I am getting at is that it is unethical to join a church with the intention of changing it, or I would join all the churches in town and make it my ministry to change them.

i whole heartedly agree with this.....  and in my view it;s the people who would join a church... then attempt to force something like ccm into it... (rather than go join another church which already had ccm).... who desire religious uniformity..... and conformity.... .. and what they want is for the entire church to conform to their ideas..... ... going into a new church with the intention of shaking things up and making changes is generally a very bad idea......

I get that this was your experience and that it wasn't a good one.

A couple of thoughts...the Christian life is about change. We are being changed or transformed into the image of Christ. That means there are some of us who were traditionalists who no longer are. We view many tradions as the commandments of men (think IFBX here). Some fight against them very aggressively. That would not be my style (with the IFBX'er crowd). I would rather help those who have had their eyes and heart opened that have reached out to me then to try and go in a change a church. When folks go in with the thought of changing a church, people get hurt in the process.

Second thought is that many folks change while at a church and this change many times effects other members.

Romans 14:1 and 15:1 are verses we need to practice note imho.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=subllibrm]I have yet to see anyone on the "pro CCM" side make any kind of demand that the "anti" crowd change anything in their personal use or enjoyment of music; corporately in worship or personally in private. [/quote]

This.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Bible doctrine, but lets not suppose it was limited to the doctrines salvation, but included those of separation and sanctification.

If you have Biblical support for adding separation and sanctification in Acts 2 for church membership I'm open to those verses.

The term Apostles doctrine would have included all the doctrines contained in scripture. Pretty sure that is obvious.

So when a new convert wants to join your church or be baptized you ensure they agree with all the doctrines prior to baptism or church membership?

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

No. They need to grow. I do go over them to see if there are any they disagree with. Generally my  only concern with them beyond salvation is that they are not morally disqualified from memebership. For instance living with a boyfriend or girlfriend.

I am concerned with those who come from another church, especially if they ae not comng form a church of like faith and practice.

 

[subllibrm]

No one can argue about the lyrics on this.

One Big Rush-Joe Satriani

And yes, I know a church that occasionally used this as a "bumper" to let folks know that it was time to head for the gym (where the services were held). My wife hated it (she don't like "whiny crap") and I found it funny. Not because of the music itself but because of the effort spent to try to be "traditional". The "poke in eye" to people who weren't even there to experience it.

BTW when I would visit I always made sure I wore a tie to offset the pastors Hawaiian shirt and sandals. I can poke eyes too!  ;D

 

[subllibrm]

No. They need to grow. My only concern with them beyond salvation is that they are not morally disqualified from membership. For instance living with a boyfriend or girlfriend.

And this has what to do with CCM?  ???

 

[Mathew Ward]

No. They need to grow. My only concern with them beyond salvation is that they are not morally disqualified from memebership. For instance living with a boyfriend or girlfriend.

I am concerned with those who come from another church, especially if they ae not comng form a church of like faith and practice.

So there are 2 sets of standards for church membership?

 

[Ransom]

And this has what to do with CCM?  ???

Well, clearly, like the use of marijuana, it's the natural and inevitable outcome of allowing a Chris Tomlin song to be sung in a worship service.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

No. They need to grow. My only concern with them beyond salvation is that they are not morally disqualified from memebership. For instance living with a boyfriend or girlfriend.

I am concerned with those who come from another church, especially if they ae not comng form a church of like faith and practice.

So there are 2 sets of standards for church membership?

I edited my post. I said in my edit that I do go over them to see if there are any they disagree with.

 

[rsc2a]

No. They need to grow. My only concern with them beyond salvation is that they are not morally disqualified from memebership. For instance living with a boyfriend or girlfriend.

I am concerned with those who come from another church, especially if they ae not comng form a church of like faith and practice.

So there are 2 sets of standards for church membership?

Second Opinions, Chapter 4, Verse 6

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

No. They need to grow. My only concern with them beyond salvation is that they are not morally disqualified from membership. For instance living with a boyfriend or girlfriend.

And this has what to do with CCM?  ???

This a long conversation that stemmed from new members of a church wanting to change the music.

 

[Ransom]

why else would he be going to such extremes if he wasn;t on the offensive trying to change what someone else believes or force them to accept his views?...

Since when is it "extreme" to demand that if someone asserts that X is a sin, Scripture (the infallible rule of faith for all doctrine and practice) be shown to that effect?

 

[subllibrm]

............

I have yet to see anyone on the "pro CCM" side make any kind of demand that the "anti" crowd change anything in their personal use or enjoyment of music; corporately in worship or personally in private.

............

then you obviously haven;t been paying attention.......... coz form my perspective that;s been admins whole purpose for continuing to hammer away in this thread.... he demands that we either provide explicit scripture against ccm that is worded to his liking to show why we don;t like it.... or else submit to being called ignorant.. biblically illiterate..... or sit by while he.. (under the name of admin)... twists what we said and makes deliberate misrepresentations about the path this thread has taken.........

why else would he be going to such extremes if he wasn;t on the offensive trying to change what someone else believes or force them to accept his views?...

Interestingly, you are the one who usually plays the "used for worship in church card" first. In my opinion that is a distraction from the question. You admit that you listen to many other kinds of music but insist that CCM be judged through the filter of church use. Every time you demand that the issue is about church use, you muddy the waters.

I like the song "Jesus Freak" posted earlier but would not see a place for it in a church service. So now what? I like the the Gettys and Tomlin in church and a whole bunch of other stuff for personal listening.

IP and Frag have made it clear that I am in violation of some sort of biblical mandate that they can't define. Sorry folks, but I am standing in the grace of God with full peace that He is not displeased with my musical choices.

 

[subllibrm]

No. They need to grow. My only concern with them beyond salvation is that they are not morally disqualified from membership. For instance living with a boyfriend or girlfriend.

And this has what to do with CCM?  ???

This a long conversation that stemmed from new members of a church wanting to change the music.

Only fornicators want to use CCM?  ???

Still not seeing the link.

 

[Ransom]

falsely accusing others of a thing you are even more guilty of yourself........ at least you are being consistent in that much........

>>> coz form my perspective <<< is right up there in blue Comic Sans.

Sorry - he's got you dead to rights on this one.

 

[Biker]

Here's my favorite CCM song

REO Speedwagon - In My Dreams

"I used to thank the Lord when I'd walk for life -n- loving golden skies above me...."


This is one my favorite songs. Luckily I've just learned we can sing it at church because it refers to the Lord and biblical truths.


Now everyone stop arguing while I listen to my favorite CCM