For CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone

[T-Bone]

Your sweeping indictment of evangelical churches does not fit any that I know personally ..nor any evangelical church that I have Pastored.  Your view is warped by your up bringing and that which you have been told by those who clearly have a bias, for what ever reason.  If you were to say some your statement might be correct, but as it stands brother, I can testify that it is patently false...just as false as my hyperbolic statement about the IFB.

Don't get mad at me..... I just held up the mirror.  Course you don't like what you see.  But it don't make it any less true. 

My post was spot on.

Not mad at you...really I am sad for you...your ignorant bias is making you a DOEG against so many of your Christian brothers!

 

[Mathew Ward]

Your sweeping indictment of evangelical churches does not fit any that I know personally ..nor any evangelical church that I have Pastored.  Your view is warped by your up bringing and that which you have been told by those who clearly have a bias, for what ever reason.  If you were to say some your statement might be correct, but as it stands brother, I can testify that it is patently false...just as false as my hyperbolic statement about the IFB.

Don't get mad at me..... I just held up the mirror.  Course you don't like what you see.  But it don't make it any less true. 

My post was spot on.

The mirror is for you to look into.

Your post was anything but spot on.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Am I the only one that never reads anything Aleshanee writes? It's in blue, there's a reason normal text isn't blue - it takes effort to read it. I for one, don't really have any inclination to put forth that effort. I assume she knows that and it's part of her purpose but maybe she doesn't realize this?

 

[Just John]

To each their own. I don't always agree with her but I find her posts often worth reading. There are several people I don't read but not based on the color of the font. 

 

[T-Bone]

Am I the only one that never reads anything Aleshanee writes? It's in blue, there's a reason normal text isn't blue - it takes effort to read it. I for one, don't really have any inclination to put forth that effort. I assume she knows that and it's part of her purpose but maybe she doesn't realize this?

That's your loss...she makes a lot of sense & clearly you could use that...anyone that has a problem with blue type & uses that for a reason not to read definitely needs some sense!

 

[Holy Mole]

tobyMac: So speak Life, speak Life.

NIV Prov 18: The tongue (speech) has the power of life.


Your turn. You said it is a biblical concept, now pony up some Bible, IF you can.

Instead of pony up bible, you should have said oops, my bad the reference was proverbs 18:21 not 18:25.

A soft answer...

Seriously, he cannot even admit to making an error even a silly typo.  Instead of what you said, he simply changes it to Pr 18:

Ahhh OK. Now that he has admitted it...though I pointed out this error several times....again, who doesn't read who's posts?

I am sorry about that. I misunderstood your comments to mean that you didn't see the connection. Of course you wouldn't because I was 4 verses off.

RSC2A has an excellent post above.

He nails it from my perspective.

I am part of the blame... I should not have said someone was "biblically illiterate." It wasn't singularly toward Aleshanee. As much as I am confounded by the lack of biblical interraction, it was out of place. I am sorry Aleshanee.

I think a real good discussion about the use of secular/Christian music can be had as long as the discussion is framed with Scripture.

Because I was a part of the problem on this thread, I will not close it. That may appear to be selve serving. I will simply watch it and only interract if there are remaining questions.

I tried to give you rep on this comment but cannot so thought I would acknowledge a very well written post with good sentiment. Likewise I apologize for my part in any harshness and unChristlike spirit demonstrated. God bless!

 

[BALAAM]

Am I the only one that never reads anything Aleshanee writes? It's in blue, there's a reason normal text isn't blue - it takes effort to read it. I for one, don't really have any inclination to put forth that effort. I assume she knows that and it's part of her purpose but maybe she doesn't realize this?

I read everything she writes. Agree with her or not she makes more sense than half of the people who post here.

 

[subllibrm]

Am I the only one that never reads anything Aleshanee writes? It's in blue, there's a reason normal text isn't blue - it takes effort to read it. I for one, don't really have any inclination to put forth that effort. I assume she knows that and it's part of her purpose but maybe she doesn't realize this?

I read everything she writes. Agree with her or not she makes more sense than half of the people who post here.

At least that many.

 

[Frag]

Your sweeping indictment of evangelical churches does not fit any that I know personally ..nor any evangelical church that I have Pastored.  Your view is warped by your up bringing and that which you have been told by those who clearly have a bias, for what ever reason.  If you were to say some your statement might be correct, but as it stands brother, I can testify that it is patently false...just as false as my hyperbolic statement about the IFB.

Don't get mad at me..... I just held up the mirror.  Course you don't like what you see.  But it don't make it any less true. 

My post was spot on.

Not mad at you...really I am sad for you...your ignorant bias is making you a DOEG against so many of your Christian brothers.

Threads by the bushel have tried to defend or denounce CCM.  Everyone is looking at the leaf while ignoring the root.

CCM thrives in evangelical churches (and some fundamental churches) for the exact reason I stated.  Shallow women want to swoon and sway in emotionalism to a "Jesus is my boyfriend" song, while rebellious teens want to rock/rap out with God.  The more effeminate men become, the more it appeals to them.  CCM is a result of a Christian culture that has turned its back on Biblical masculinity and Biblical femininity AND the result of a Christian culture that tries to appease teenage rebellion rather than confront it.

Clear to anyone who dares to seek the truth. 

 

[subllibrm]

Your sweeping indictment of evangelical churches does not fit any that I know personally ..nor any evangelical church that I have Pastored.  Your view is warped by your up bringing and that which you have been told by those who clearly have a bias, for what ever reason.  If you were to say some your statement might be correct, but as it stands brother, I can testify that it is patently false...just as false as my hyperbolic statement about the IFB.

Don't get mad at me..... I just held up the mirror.  Course you don't like what you see.  But it don't make it any less true. 

My post was spot on.

Not mad at you...really I am sad for you...your ignorant bias is making you a DOEG against so many of your Christian brothers.

Threads by the bushel have tried to defend or denounce CCM.  Everyone is looking at the leaf while ignoring the root.

CCM thrives in evangelical churches (and some fundamental churches) for the exact reason I stated.  Shallow women want to swoon and sway in emotionalism to a "Jesus is my boyfriend" song, while rebellious teens want to rock/rap out with God.  The more effeminate men become, the more it appeals to them.  CCM is a result of a Christian culture that has turned its back on Biblical masculinity and Biblical femininity AND the result of a Christian culture that tries to appease teenage rebellion rather than confront it.

Clear to anyone who dares to seek the truth.

So "In Christ Alone" and "The Power Of Cross" appeal to effeminate men? Women swoon over these songs? Teens rock/rap out to them?

Keith & Kristyn Getty "In Christ Alone"

Keith & Kristyn Getty "The Power of the Cross"

Come on out from under that rock and enjoy the blessings that God is giving us.

 

[Frag]

Dear Grey Area Defender,

Grey is a shade of black.

Sincerely,
Frag

 

[Frag]

Do you listen to Southern Gospel?

Course not.  I'm a Yankee....

 

[subllibrm]

Dear Grey Area Defender,

Grey is a shade of black.

Sincerely,
Frag

Yet you can't define white.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I actually agree with your point but disagree with your application. I have a large exposure to contemporary churches that use CCM. I have never heard a song where the words were not understandable.

Now, when I open up a hymnal with hymns from the 1800s, I have to admit that there is plenty in there that is difficult to understand.

Music is a form of communication.  Worship/church music ought to edify via sound doctrine.  Shallowness and superficiality ought not mark any form of Christian endeavor, particularly in the corporate gathering, whether through sermon or song.  I'm not saying that all CCM is shallow, and actually like some of it (as I've pointed out in this very thread), but what I am saying is that the dung that is so loud and full of distortion that passes for an equivalent of jumbo jet engines blaring, has no place in worship.  As far as the snipe you made at hymns, Liberty1 pretty much nailed your carcass on that one.

 

[subllibrm]

I actually agree with your point but disagree with your application. I have a large exposure to contemporary churches that use CCM. I have never heard a song where the words were not understandable.

Now, when I open up a hymnal with hymns from the 1800s, I have to admit that there is plenty in there that is difficult to understand.

Music is a form of communication.  Worship/church music ought to edify via sound doctrine.  Shallowness and superficiality ought not mark any form of Christian endeavor, particularly in the corporate gathering, whether through sermon or song.  I'm not saying that all CCM is shallow, and actually like some of it (as I've pointed out in this very thread), but what I am saying is that the dung that is so loud and full of distortion that passes for an equivalent of jumbo jet engines blaring, has no place in worship.  As far as the snipe you made at hymns, Liberty1 pretty much nailed your carcass on that one.

This is why I don't go to the children's Christmas program.

 

[ALAYMAN]

This is why I don't go to the children's Christmas program.

Did you actually mean to set this up on a tee so well for me?


For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

But maybe you WERE implying that the CCM crowd needs to attend junior church until they learn to belly up to some real steak.

 

[ALAYMAN]

What we are seeing here is the development of man made definitions of what makes music "Christian." Frank Garlock had his principles in the 70s which are now discredited... traditionalists keep finding more "hooks."

--We are now being told Christian songs have a quota to fill. "Use 'God' or 'Jesus'."

--The song must be about redemption.

--The song must be about some deep theological truth.

When you boil down the traditionalist thinking, these are just ruses. They are against the music because they do not like the style.

We get it.  Your mind is made up, don't confuse you with any Scripture or logic, and your idol is enthroned.

 

[christundivided]

I actually agree with your point but disagree with your application. I have a large exposure to contemporary churches that use CCM. I have never heard a song where the words were not understandable.

Now, when I open up a hymnal with hymns from the 1800s, I have to admit that there is plenty in there that is difficult to understand.

Music is a form of communication.  Worship/church music ought to edify via sound doctrine.  Shallowness and superficiality ought not mark any form of Christian endeavor, particularly in the corporate gathering, whether through sermon or song.  I'm not saying that all CCM is shallow, and actually like some of it (as I've pointed out in this very thread), but what I am saying is that the dung that is so loud and full of distortion that passes for an equivalent of jumbo jet engines blaring, has no place in worship.  As far as the snipe you made at hymns, Liberty1 pretty much nailed your carcass on that one.

I have to agree with you for the most part. Then again, I have the pretty much the same opinion about preaching....

 

[subllibrm]

What we are seeing here is the development of man made definitions of what makes music "Christian." Frank Garlock had his principles in the 70s which are now discredited... traditionalists keep finding more "hooks."

--We are now being told Christian songs have a quota to fill. "Use 'God' or 'Jesus'."

--The song must be about redemption.

--The song must be about some deep theological truth.

When you boil down the traditionalist thinking, these are just ruses. They are against the music because they do not like the style.

i have never heard of frank garlock before coming to this forum.... and even now wouldn;t recognize a song written by him .... but i do recognize when a fan of a counter culture style is asking us to give it the benefit of the doubt... all while refusing to give the benefit of the doubt to those who can;t accept it.....

did you read what i posted earlier about the concept of aloha?............ not trying to be an enemy here....... but i seriously don;t understand your apparent cultural bias and even bigotry towards those who keep calling traditionalists.......

Is traditionalist a bad word or have negative meaning? I'm just asking because It seems to pretty well fit the framework of the folks speaking ill of modern music (CCM being meaningless, I chose modern as  amore honest term).

As for name calling check out what Frag has leveled on me in the last day or two. Now that is some ignorant name calling. 

 

[FSSL]

did you read what i posted earlier about the concept of aloha?............ not trying to be an enemy here....... but i seriously don;t understand your apparent cultural bias and even bigotry towards those who keep calling traditionalists....... [/font][/size][/color]

I am against those who want to prevent the rest of us from enjoying and appreciating CCM. THAT is the traditionalist that is a bugaboo. My grandparents were traditionalists but never expected us to listen to just 1800s music.

Okay... for a really good discussion.

AGAIN, I reiterate, I NEVER said that "speak life" is EXCLUSIVELY a Christian term. You keep missing that point and you keep charging me with that. I feel like we are on a beach having a discussion 50 yards away.

Yes, because of common grace, the world has some concept of good. They understand that words do matter. So, I expect other cultures to have that concept.

My curious point is why you refuse to see the biblical themes in the song. You are unable to admit that the song is a Christian song. Your definition of a Christian song is way too narrow. It has become absurd to even argue against that.

I like tobyMac's music. It has great teachings. I like LeCrae's music. I like Matthew West. I like Michael Card. Traditionalists on this board are suggesting that CCM artists do not have deep content. All I can say is that they are generally ignorant of what these people are writing/singing.

Traditionalists try to come up with all kinds of pietistic reasons why CCM is wrong. The fact of the matter is, they don't like the style of music.