From Just a Member

[16KJV11]

And , you get the point, unless you are just obtuse.

Anishinaabe

Is that opposed to 'acute'?

Hey, Bud, what's yer angle here?

Anishinaabe

Why don't you get to the point?

Am I getting the enth degree, here?

Anishinaabe

Well, it's about time that you got 'straight'.... ;D

Will you line me out?

Anishinaabe

Only if you don't get 'right'!!!!

 

[prophet]

And , you get the point, unless you are just obtuse.

Anishinaabe

Is that opposed to 'acute'?

Hey, Bud, what's yer angle here?

Anishinaabe

Why don't you get to the point?

Am I getting the enth degree, here?

Anishinaabe

Well, it's about time that you got 'straight'.... ;D

Will you line me out?

Anishinaabe

Only if you don't get 'right'!!!!

I'll attend every church within a 50 mile radius, someone has to be right.

Anishinaabe

 

[16KJV11]

And , you get the point, unless you are just obtuse.

Anishinaabe

Is that opposed to 'acute'?

Hey, Bud, what's yer angle here?

Anishinaabe

Why don't you get to the point?

Am I getting the enth degree, here?

Anishinaabe

Well, it's about time that you got 'straight'.... ;D

Will you line me out?

Anishinaabe

Only if you don't get 'right'!!!!

I'll attend every church within a 50 mile radius, someone has to be right.

Anishinaabe

That must be a real 'protracted' experience.

 

[prophet]

And , you get the point, unless you are just obtuse.

Anishinaabe

Is that opposed to 'acute'?

Hey, Bud, what's yer angle here?

Anishinaabe

Why don't you get to the point?

Am I getting the enth degree, here?

Anishinaabe

Well, it's about time that you got 'straight'.... ;D

Will you line me out?

Anishinaabe

Only if you don't get 'right'!!!!

I'll attend every church within a 50 mile radius, someone has to be right.

Anishinaabe

That must be a real 'protracted' experience.

To which I am "diametrically" opposed.

Anishinaabe

 

[16KJV11]

And , you get the point, unless you are just obtuse.

Anishinaabe

Is that opposed to 'acute'?

Hey, Bud, what's yer angle here?

Anishinaabe

Why don't you get to the point?

Am I getting the enth degree, here?

Anishinaabe

Well, it's about time that you got 'straight'.... ;D

Will you line me out?

Anishinaabe

Only if you don't get 'right'!!!!

I'll attend every church within a 50 mile radius, someone has to be right.

Anishinaabe

That must be a real 'protracted' experience.

To which I am "diametrically" opposed.

Anishinaabe

You must have gotten your arms around the 'circumference' of the problem.

 

[Still There]

As Posted in the Times Comment Section 03/21/2013

I am a Member of the First Baptist Church of Hammond.
I am not an employee.
I am not a deacon.
I hold no official position.

I cannot speak on behalf of the church.

I have been a resident of Lake County for 48 years
I have been a member of First Baptist Church of Hammond for a total of 44 years.

I must apologize to the Northwest Indiana Community for the wickedness that was done by of our former pastor.  I sincerely apologize and ask your forgiveness.  I apologize for the scorn that it brings on the good people of our community.  I apologize for the scorn it brings on our state and any of our leaders.  I apologize for any scorn it brings on the city of Hammond.  I apologize to the other believers and churches throughout the region and the difficulty and confusion that has been wrought on the message of the gospel of Christ through the hypocrisy that has been lived out in front of the public.  And most importantly I apologize to this girl and the family of this girl.  I have children.  I know what I would have done had this happened to my daughter.  I don't advise for your sake to do what I would have done but I know the anger I would have and I do not think I could have controlled myself in the admirable manner in which you have done.

There is not any excuse for sin, ever. I will not make an excuse for it and our church has made a formal statement making it clear that we reject Jack Schaap's excuse for it. There is never any excuse for the heinous wickedness and blasphemies done by our former pastor as reported by the prosecutor.  It is the very opposite of everything we say we believe, teach and train our members and our young to be. Sins are not to be put on a scale against our supposed righteousness in which we are weighed to see if we can avoid the consequences of the wrong we did.  How many homeless does one need to feed in order balance it out if we decide to kill one person we dislike?  The Sentencing Memorandum written by Paul Stracci is the exact opposite of everything I have ever believed and been taught.  The only good we do is credited to Jesus Christ and is His righteousness alone.  Our sins are only forgiven because they were paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.  And our civil crimes must bear the punishment that the public justice demands.

While there will always be individuals who may fail, the heartbeat of the everyday members of the church is to try to live as Christ would have us live.  We live among you.  We work with you.  We pay our taxes and bills like you and while we believe to be fair and honest in all our dealings.  We believe and teach marital fidelity and sexual purity but there will always be those who may not live up to what they say they believe.  When we fail to live up to what we say we believe again I apologize.    If we ever made you feel like we thought that somehow we were better or more righteous than anyone else, I apologize. 

I appreciate the work of Judge Rudy Lozano and admire the work and honest and diligent response of the prosecutors United States Attorney David Capp and Assistant United States Attorney Jill Koster and their team.  What fine and good public servants these people are.  I believe these people should be praised as public servants meting out judgment for the good of our community and I praise their diligence and help to keep our community safe.  Justice is a Godly act.

I apologize for the letters written on behalf of the defense that I can only believe were made out of a sense of past friendship but not having yet appreciated the full wickedness that was purported and the detail of deviancy that seemed out of character of what we heard from the lips of Jack Schaap.  After further review of the details it makes it abundantly clear the full extent of the wickedness and the construction of a scheme to defraud a girl who was to be protected by those of us who portray ourselves with pure motivations and a desire to provide Godly guidance.

I cannot begin to express the gut wrenching sickness I felt as I read the prosecution report. It is not who I believe we are, what we teach and what we seek to be.  Not because there is anything good within us but because we believe that we are to be people who follow Jesus Christ, claim His name, tell the good news of His saving grace through His shed blood and try to do good work on His behalf. 

I love the people of First Baptist Church of Hammond.  I have been taught how to live a Godly life by many good Teachers and Sunday School Teachers from the time I was very young. I have been taught by many good pastors who have lived Godly lives.  I have been taught to be a good citizen, pay my bills on time, pray for our leaders and public servants and do good works in the community,.  Never were we taught to use God as a ticket to commit sin.  I have admired those who have reached out to the community and worked to help those in need.  I hurt deeply for our people and I hurt deeply for Christ.  I also hurt deeply for anyone who would use this as a reason to shun the God we believe in.  This is not a representation of Who God is nor Who Jesus Christ is and I would beg you to not allow this to cause you to reject Jesus Christ and what He did for all of us that we might be saved from our sin.

I humbly apologize and beg your forgiveness.

Just a member.

I too am a very LONG standing member - longer than you - but there was no way we saw this coming and there's no way WE - you and me should apologize for what happened because WE - YOU AND ME didn't do it and WE - YOU AND ME didn't know it was happening.  Take the guilt off your shoulder and praise God you're a christian and God still loves you and forgives you of your sin.  Schaap is where he should be and yes, he screwed the church over royally but he's gone and another Godly man has stepped into this and is trying with all he can to help the people of the church heal.  Take the monkey off your back.

 

[brainisengaged]

>Deacons who let the Preacher Man walk all over them are guilty.
>Pew members who heard questionable things time and time again, but just swallowed them because they were said by the Preacher are guilty.
>Staff members who sat in meetings with unholy actions such as the reaming out of fellow staff-members, the use of profanity, and the vagaries of a tyrant king presiding over a kingdom of fawning yes-men are guilty.
>Pew members and staff alike who viciously shunned anyone who tried to voice their insight as to the fact there was something wrong in Camelot are guilty.
>A church that relentlessly knocks on every door in the area and acts as if you don't really go to church unless you go to OUR church...is guilty
>A church that thinks following a man who is following God (ostensibly) is the same as following God...is guilty

I think there is a lot for which to apologize, and I think the letterwriter felt the same inclination. Since some of these things were never properly acknowledged or addressed, they are starting to happen again.

 

[Bravo]

I think there is a lot for which to apologize, and I think the letterwriter felt the same inclination. Since some of these things were never properly acknowledged or addressed, they are starting to happen again.

Do you really feel it is happening again?

 

[brainisengaged]

Ok, I am being overly dramatic. Bad habit, truly.

It is NOT happening from the top down. That is for CERTAIN.
Our new pastor does not want to be hero-worshiped.

But we keep trying!
That's what I mean.

 

[prophet]

And , you get the point, unless you are just obtuse.

Anishinaabe

Is that opposed to 'acute'?

Hey, Bud, what's yer angle here?

Anishinaabe

Why don't you get to the point?

Am I getting the enth degree, here?

Anishinaabe

Well, it's about time that you got 'straight'.... ;D

Will you line me out?

Anishinaabe

Only if you don't get 'right'!!!!

I'll attend every church within a 50 mile radius, someone has to be right.

Anishinaabe

That must be a real 'protracted' experience.

To which I am "diametrically" opposed.

Anishinaabe

You must have gotten your arms around the 'circumference' of the problem.

I did.  It caused Mr to do a complete 180.

Anishinaabe

 

[TidesofTruth]

I too am a very LONG standing member - longer than you - but there was no way we saw this coming and there's no way WE - you and me should apologize for what happened because WE - YOU AND ME didn't do it and WE - YOU AND ME didn't know it was happening.  Take the guilt off your shoulder and praise God you're a christian and God still loves you and forgives you of your sin.  Schaap is where he should be and yes, he screwed the church over royally but he's gone and another Godly man has stepped into this and is trying with all he can to help the people of the church heal.  Take the monkey off your back.

I do not have a monkey on my back.  Don't worry about my guilt or if I am carrying anything.  I can assure you I am not.

The day, in fact the moment that the article came out in The Times of Jack Schaap's sentencing this was placed into the comment section.  I had prepared it after reading the sentencing memorandum.  The point was this:

1.  To the Public there did need a representation of contriteness in spirit that was absent from Jack Schaap and each and every single letter that was written on His behalf.  The letters showed our membership to be completely clueless to the gravity of the horrendous blasphemies that were written by Schaap. 

2.  I have no official position within the church.  That means I am free to say what I want without fear of loss of income nor injury to the church legally.  We have a serious problem in our churches because of litigation and insurance that causes leadership to lawyer up on problems that use to be handled biblically.  We have a severe problem.  We fear man instead of trusting God to do it His way.  God works out all the problems when we do it His way.  Fear is our enemy.  We need to stop with doing it the Lawyer way and do it God's way.  They are in complete conflict.  I love Brother Gibbs but we are denying the power of God.  We claim that we are being smart but we are truly being ignorant.  It is difficult to quantify God's supernatural hand but our way is not working out too good. 

FBCH needs to start practicing church discipline RIGHT NOW!  We have tried it the other way.  IT IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FAILURE!  Do it God's way.  DEACONS have you not yet come to understand this.  You are heading us toward disaster once again if you do not get with it and do what you are suppose to do.    You know what I mean.  GET GOING!    A Church that does not practice church discipline is a church not practicing restoration.  We are derelict in duty.  REVIVAL WILL NOT START UNTIL  WE FOLLOW GOD IN THIS MATTER!

3.  Deny it all you want that it is my fault or your fault or anybody's fault but Judgment begins at the house of God first and if you are missing God's giant thumbprint on church after church Not just IFB but every gospel preaching church in the nation if not the world, you should really think about it and understand that God is cleaning house.  I want my spirit to be contrite before God and in front of other men.  I have enough sin to be sorrowful for that I have no reason and no room for a haughty spirit.  My brother's sin is my sin because if we don't start understanding that we struggle together and we are to hold each other accountable and up before God, we all fall.    Judgment begins at the House of God and then the Nations.

4.  Yes I believe a Godly man has stepped in to help guide our church in the correct path.  It takes some years to do this and when we say we have no sin, or no responsibility for sin committed in our name or in the name of Jesus Christ (which there was) then his hands are hamstrung to move the congregation in the direction God is leading Him.  The people need to rise up and state "come what may we will follow the Lord." 

5.  God is calling us to repentance.  Don't tell me we are pure.  We are Corinth.  We are Pergamum.  If you do not understand this you are blind to the sin.  We were Philadelphia and the pastors of the nation came to learn and we became Ephesus and we continued on painting the façade when corruption was found within and we became Ephesus with a Corinth heart and now we sit in Pergamum.  We have a choice to become Philadelphian once again but if we fail Laodicea lies at the door.

 

[prophet]

>Deacons who let the Preacher Man walk all over them are guilty.
>Pew members who heard questionable things time and time again, but just swallowed them because they were said by the Preacher are guilty.
>Staff members who sat in meetings with unholy actions such as the reaming out of fellow staff-members, the use of profanity, and the vagaries of a tyrant king presiding over a kingdom of fawning yes-men are guilty.
>Pew members and staff alike who viciously shunned anyone who tried to voice their insight as to the fact there was something wrong in Camelot are guilty.
>A church that relentlessly knocks on every door in the area and acts as if you don't really go to church unless you go to OUR church...is guilty
>A church that thinks following a man who is following God (ostensibly) is the same as following God...is guilty

I think there is a lot for which to apologize, and I think the letterwriter felt the same inclination. Since some of these things were never properly acknowledged or addressed, they are starting to happen again.

This^^^^

Some of us voiced our disapproval (I was an associate pastor, and on the maintenance staff during the Schaap years), and were either shouted down, blackballed, shown the door, or otherwise churlishly treated.

Personally, I left because the deacons went along with the misappropriation of funds, abuse of staff, and attacks on long held FBCH doctrinal positions.
There were other problems, as well, like : "Why did a Baptist Church need charismatic Assembly of God music?"


Anishinaabe

 

[Bruh]

Wesley, I was there, too. There was never any attempt to corporately address a single issue other than: Let's Move On. We want to be certain God is with us, so let's organize fasting and prayer circles. But never was repentance, corporate culpability, or healing mentioned, discussed, or even broached. We acted as if JS had been the problem, there was no other person to blame in any way (well, except of course the victim who, along with her entire extended family) was banished from the church....

And we are right back to our pastor-worshipping ways. In Pastor Wilkerson's absence last night, Dave Douglass praised the attendees of the Wednesday night service with, "Your Pastor approves of your faithfulness" (not your Saviour) and little insidious signals like that that crop up over and over...

Pastor Tom is correct. We never repented properly as a church.

Without attempting to bash Wesley here, for I appreciate his gentle correction of me, this is perhaps more of what I was aiming at. There are systemic problems at FBCH that aggravate the natural tendency of preachers to be lifted up in pride. Of course, this is my opinion of the whole, and not of any particular individual. In the Bible you see even good people taking a corporate responsibility for corporate sin, and I think that such an opportunity for self-examination, cleansing, and humbling of the entire church before God would have been a wonderfully appropriate direction to take in the days afterward. Maybe even still. No, almost certainly still.

I don't want to seem like I'm sitting in judgment on my brothers and sisters in Christ, for I cannot see hearts. But the IFB movement needs a revival of humility and holiness, and I think it would be very helpful if that was led by what is still the biggest and most influential IFB church in the country.

KMSL for real!!!!

Yes, because America is watching her.  And so is the KGB. 

 

[prophet]

I too am a very LONG standing member - longer than you - but there was no way we saw this coming and there's no way WE - you and me should apologize for what happened because WE - YOU AND ME didn't do it and WE - YOU AND ME didn't know it was happening.  Take the guilt off your shoulder and praise God you're a christian and God still loves you and forgives you of your sin.  Schaap is where he should be and yes, he screwed the church over royally but he's gone and another Godly man has stepped into this and is trying with all he can to help the people of the church heal.  Take the monkey off your back.

I do not have a monkey on my back.  Don't worry about my guilt or if I am carrying anything.  I can assure you I am not.

The day, in fact the moment that the article came out in The Times of Jack Schaap's sentencing this was placed into the comment section.  I had prepared it after reading the sentencing memorandum.  The point was this:

1.  To the Public there did need a representation of contriteness in spirit that was absent from Jack Schaap and each and every single letter that was written on His behalf.  The letters showed our membership to be completely clueless to the gravity of the horrendous blasphemies that were written by Schaap. 

2.  I have no official position within the church.  That means I am free to say what I want without fear of loss of income nor injury to the church legally.  We have a serious problem in our churches because of litigation and insurance that causes leadership to lawyer up on problems that use to be handled biblically.  We have a severe problem.  We fear man instead of trusting God to do it His way.  God works out all the problems when we do it His way.  Fear is our enemy.  We need to stop with doing it the Lawyer way and do it God's way.  They are in complete conflict.  I love Brother Gibbs but we are denying the power of God.  We claim that we are being smart but we are truly being ignorant.  It is difficult to quantify God's supernatural hand but our way is not working out too good. 

FBCH needs to start practicing church discipline RIGHT NOW!  We have tried it the other way.  IT IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FAILURE!  Do it God's way.  DEACONS have you not yet come to understand this.  You are heading us toward disaster once again if you do not get with it and do what you are suppose to do.    You know what I mean.  GET GOING!    A Church that does not practice church discipline is a church not practicing restoration.  We are derelict in duty.  REVIVAL WILL NOT START UNTIL  WE FOLLOW GOD IN THIS MATTER!

3.  Deny it all you want that it is my fault or your fault or anybody's fault but Judgment begins at the house of God first and if you are missing God's giant thumbprint on church after church Not just IFB but every gospel preaching church in the nation if not the world, you should really think about it and understand that God is cleaning house.  I want my spirit to be contrite before God and in front of other men.  I have enough sin to be sorrowful for that I have no reason and no room for a haughty spirit.  My brother's sin is my sin because if we don't start understanding that we struggle together and we are to hold each other accountable and up before God, we all fall.    Judgment begins at the House of God and then the Nations.

4.  Yes I believe a Godly man has stepped in to help guide our church in the correct path.  It takes some years to do this and when we say we have no sin, or no responsibility for sin committed in our name or in the name of Jesus Christ (which there was) then his hands are hamstrung to move the congregation in the direction God is leading Him.  The people need to rise up and state "come what may we will follow the Lord." 

5.  God is calling us to repentance.  Don't tell me we are pure.  We are Corinth.  We are Pergamum.  If you do not understand this you are blind to the sin.  We were Philadelphia and the pastors of the nation came to learn and we became Ephesus and we continued on painting the façade when corruption was found within and we became Ephesus with a Corinth heart and now we sit in Pergamum.  We have a choice to become Philadelphian once again but if we fail Laodicea lies at the door.

Excellent thoughts. 
I was well aware that you and I were a majority, but , like tea party members politically, we were way under-represented  by our representative deacon board.

Anishinaabe

 

[Bravo]

Ok, I am being overly dramatic. Bad habit, truly.

It is NOT happening from the top down. That is for CERTAIN.
Our new pastor does not want to be hero-worshiped.

But we keep trying!
That's what I mean.

Of course we do, if you follow the new discipleship program you can get your picture taken with the new pastor. Even HAC graduates are taking basic discipleship classes now for the opportunity to get their picture with him. Maybe we are on our way,...

 

[brainisengaged]

My strong feeling is that 100% the deacon board should have resigned. Let us nominate and elect new members ourselves.

 

[Timotheus]

My strong feeling is that 100% the deacon board should have resigned. Let us nominate and elect new members ourselves.

Do you ever get the feeling that Eddie has been around to long too?  He was both DH and JS right hand man as they went off the deep end.  (of course 30 years apart) 

As for Wilkerson, he seems like a nice guy, but I don't believe he has what it takes to clean house.  I think Eddie and the deacons picked him because he was a nice guy and would let them be.

I was hoping that someone like Jim Binney would be the pastor.  He was old enough not to care about stepping on some toes and could clean house for a couple of years and then someone like Wilkerson could take it.

 

[bgwilkinson]

>Deacons who let the Preacher Man walk all over them are guilty.
>Pew members who heard questionable things time and time again, but just swallowed them because they were said by the Preacher are guilty.
>Staff members who sat in meetings with unholy actions such as the reaming out of fellow staff-members, the use of profanity, and the vagaries of a tyrant king presiding over a kingdom of fawning yes-men are guilty.
>Pew members and staff alike who viciously shunned anyone who tried to voice their insight as to the fact there was something wrong in Camelot are guilty.
>A church that relentlessly knocks on every door in the area and acts as if you don't really go to church unless you go to OUR church...is guilty
>A church that thinks following a man who is following God (ostensibly) is the same as following God...is guilty

I think there is a lot for which to apologize, and I think the letterwriter felt the same inclination. Since some of these things were never properly acknowledged or addressed, they are starting to happen again.

This^^^^

Some of us voiced our disapproval (I was an associate pastor, and on the maintenance staff during the Schaap years), and were either shouted down, blackballed, shown the door, or otherwise churlishly treated.

Personally, I left because the deacons went along with the misappropriation of funds, abuse of staff, and attacks on long held FBCH doctrinal positions.
There were other problems, as well, like : "Why did a Baptist Church need charismatic Assembly of God music?"


Anishinaabe

IFB churches do not normally use God's song book, the book of Psalms. They use modern popular songs that have been composed within the last 350 to 400 years. So why don't we use God's song book?

The religious organization that translated our English Bibles of the 1500s and 1600s used the book of Psalms.
It is still a major part of the Book of Common Prayer even today.

If you know of a misappropriation of funds can you revel the details.
I don't think the deacons knew of this.

 

[TidesofTruth]

I don't think anyone needs to go anywhere.  That is not what this is about.

I think everyone needs to stay put and do their jobs according to the way God has prescribed it.

I think revival is necessary.  I think repentant hearts are necessary. 

The body of Christ does not need to cut off members.  We need them to be right and stay right.  We need for those who are struggling to be held accountable.  The church is not about cutting out.  Its about building up people Biblically.

 

[Timotheus]

I don't think anyone needs to go anywhere.  That is not what this is about.

I think everyone needs to stay put and do their jobs according to the way God has prescribed it.

I think revival is necessary.  I think repentant hearts are necessary. 

The body of Christ does not need to cut off members.  We need them to be right and stay right.  We need for those who are struggling to be held accountable.  The church is not about cutting out.  Its about building up people Biblically.

How then do you propose dealing with the wolves?  They love to deal with people who talk about forgiveness, repentance, revival and building up and et.