HAC Campus

[BALAAM]

Is FBCH trying to sell the HAC campus or just a part of it?  Does anyone know? I think they have some kind of vote tonight.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Is FBCH trying to sell the HAC campus or just a part of it?  Does anyone know? I think they have some kind of vote tonight.

No.

Tonight's vote is on accepting the terms of a five year note for 13.2 million.

This is the final part of our refinancing.

 

[BALAAM]

Is FBCH trying to sell the HAC campus or just a part of it?  Does anyone know? I think they have some kind of vote tonight.

No.

Tonight's vote is on accepting the terms of a five year note for 13.2 million.

This is the final part of our refinancing.

Why don't you just borrow them the money??  (kidding)

 

[fishinnut]

Is FBCH trying to sell the HAC campus or just a part of it?  Does anyone know? I think they have some kind of vote tonight.

No.

Tonight's vote is on accepting the terms of a five year note for 13.2 million.

This is the final part of our refinancing.

:The irony or it all!

After all these years!
After all the millionaire friends & donors!
After all the Church Ed lectures on, "IF YOU DON"T HAVE IT------DON"T SPEND IT!
After all the criticism of Jerry at Liberty who left his school well into the black!
After all the staff members who worked there at low wages.

HAC still owes on that little campus! :

 

[Twisted]

Is FBCH trying to sell the HAC campus or just a part of it?  Does anyone know? I think they have some kind of vote tonight.

No.

Tonight's vote is on accepting the terms of a five year note for 13.2 million.

This is the final part of our refinancing.

:The irony or it all!

After all these years!
After all the millionaire friends & donors!
After all the Church Ed lectures on, "IF YOU DON"T HAVE IT------DON"T SPEND IT!
After all the criticism of Jerry at Liberty who left his school well into the black!
After all the staff members who worked there at low wages.

HAC still owes on that little campus! :

Surely this includes church debt.

 

[BALAAM]

I actually heard this from a teenage boy who used to be in my SS class. He may or may not have heard everything correctly.

 

[qwerty]

The ministries were debt free when Dr. Hyles passed away including the college.

I guess I missed something over the years. Is the college bring used as collateral, or did Jack get loans against the college?  I know they used to take loans during the summer for improvements, but would pay them off in the Fall when college started back up, but seems like a lot of money to owe against something that was paid off in 2001.

 

[WESLEY]

Make a LONNNNGGG story short....

Schaap left a debt of 13 million on the new church building.  Collateral for the new building was the parking garage, new building & old auditorium.  However, the new building that was built 11 years ago for $30 million is only worth $6 million.... Hence, they voted on adding the college and the Administrative Office Building to the loan as collateral....

Everything else is debt free... though Schaap also left a 1.2 million loan on the college, cemetery, and a chapel in South Holland.... we paid that off in cash from the Trust Fund a few weeks ago.

I think that about covers it....

 

[sword]

So they have a total debt of 13.2 million on all the properties?

That does not sound too bad considering all the debt Schapp racked up.

 

[bgwilkinson]

So they have a total debt of 13.2 million on all the properties?

That does not sound too bad considering all the debt Schapp racked up.

Correct, although it does not include unfunded liabilities, such as lifetime retirement at full salary for retired employees.

 

[sword]

So they have a total debt of 13.2 million on all the properties?
That does not sound too bad considering all the debt Schapp racked up.

Correct, although it does not include unfunded liabilities, such as lifetime retirement at full salary for retired employees.

As long as the staff all agree to work as long as the Colstens did, this seems like a very reasonable benefit.

 

[bgwilkinson]

So they have a total debt of 13.2 million on all the properties?
That does not sound too bad considering all the debt Schapp racked up.

Correct, although it does not include unfunded liabilities, such as lifetime retirement at full salary for retired employees.

As long as the staff all agree to work as long as the Colstens did, this seems like a very reasonable benefit.

It was a reasonable benefit instituted by Bro. Schaap when we had millionaires giving us free money.

It is no longer reasonable or workable when it has to come out of the budget.

No organization can afford those kind of benefits if they don't have taxing authority and even taxing authorities can not provide the type of benefits we are now obligated to provide these former employees for as long as they live.

 

[sword]

So they have a total debt of 13.2 million on all the properties?
That does not sound too bad considering all the debt Schapp racked up.

Correct, although it does not include unfunded liabilities, such as lifetime retirement at full salary for retired employees.

As long as the staff all agree to work as long as the Colstens did, this seems like a very reasonable benefit.

It was a reasonable benefit instituted by Bro. Schaap when we had millionaires giving us free money.

It is no longer reasonable or workable when it has to come out of the budget.

No organization can afford those kind of benefits if they don't have taxing authority and even taxing authorities can not provide the type of benefits we are now obligated to provide these former employees for as long as they live.

That seems like a very silly statement.

Many industries provide lifetime pensions at the 65 to 85% of base salary rate plus benefits. These industries include, banking, finance & insurance, mining, manufacturing, utilities, management, health providers, shipping & warehousing, energy, & technical & scientific services.

Do you think the church no longer owes the retirement benefits they promised it's long time employees just because they no longer have a healthy cash flow. Do you not get any retirement benefits from your former employer?

 

[Twisted]

Many industries provide lifetime pensions at the 65 to 85% of base salary rate plus benefits. These industries include, banking, finance & insurance, mining, manufacturing, utilities, management, health providers, shipping & warehousing, energy, & technical & scientific services.

Do you think the church no longer owes the retirement benefits they promised it's long time employees just because they no longer have a healthy cash flow. Do you not get any retirement benefits from your former employer?

I've never heard of this at FBCH, but would like to see the documents that explain the requirements to get such a retirement.  If that were true, then there would be a fund that the church contributes to for retirees.  Do they have such a fund?  It would be a line item in the financials.

 

[bgwilkinson]

So they have a total debt of 13.2 million on all the properties?
That does not sound too bad considering all the debt Schapp racked up.

Correct, although it does not include unfunded liabilities, such as lifetime retirement at full salary for retired employees.

As long as the staff all agree to work as long as the Colstens did, this seems like a very reasonable benefit.

It was a reasonable benefit instituted by Bro. Schaap when we had millionaires giving us free money.

It is no longer reasonable or workable when it has to come out of the budget.

No organization can afford those kind of benefits if they don't have taxing authority and even taxing authorities can not provide the type of benefits we are now obligated to provide these former employees for as long as they live.

That seems like a very silly statement.

Many industries provide lifetime pensions at the 65 to 85% of base salary rate plus benefits. These industries include, banking, finance & insurance, mining, manufacturing, utilities, management, health providers, shipping & warehousing, energy, & technical & scientific services.

Do you think the church no longer owes the retirement benefits they promised it's long time employees just because they no longer have a healthy cash flow. Do you not get any retirement benefits from your former employer?

Sword said, "Many industries provide lifetime pensions at the 65 to 85% of base salary rate plus benefits. These industries include, banking, finance & insurance, mining, manufacturing, utilities, management, health providers, shipping & warehousing, energy, & technical & scientific services."


Perhaps if we had built up to it with a plan to fund it, it would have made sense. We had no plan and we were not setting aside any funds to pay these benefits. A church is not just any industry and most spend every dime they take in as we did.

When we made the retirement plan we did not take into account that we might not continue to receive millions of dollars of free money every year into perpetuity, shame on us. After all we were accustomed to receiving free money for many decades.

At this point the funding of current benefits takes a substantial part of our budget. This is only for those who have previously retired. We are not currently offering any retirement plan for anyone in the future.


Sword said, "Do you think the church no longer owes the retirement benefits they promised it's long time employees just because they no longer have a healthy cash flow. Do you not get any retirement benefits from your former employer?"


I think I made myself clear by the statement, "..can not provide the type of benefits we are now obligated to provide these former employees for as long as they live."

I have been a business owner for about 50 years, so no my employer does not provide any retirement benefits. By the way I still work about 50 hours a week currently in my consulting business.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Many industries provide lifetime pensions at the 65 to 85% of base salary rate plus benefits. These industries include, banking, finance & insurance, mining, manufacturing, utilities, management, health providers, shipping & warehousing, energy, & technical & scientific services.

Do you think the church no longer owes the retirement benefits they promised it's long time employees just because they no longer have a healthy cash flow. Do you not get any retirement benefits from your former employer?

I've never heard of this at FBCH, but would like to see the documents that explain the requirements to get such a retirement.  If that were true, then there would be a fund that the church contributes to for retirees.  Do they have such a fund?  It would be a line item in the financials.

FBCH does not offer any type retirement period. This program has been discontinued since about 2011. Only those who are now getting 100% of the salary they retired at are on the plan. As they pass so does the program. You had to be signed up on it before 2011 to collect when you reached your 70th birthday. There is no funding for this program, just the operating budget.

 

[Twisted]

By the way I still work about 50 hours a week currently in my consulting business.

This is an obvious hindrance to you posting on the FFF.  We'd ask that you cut your hours so your posting time can increase.

 

[sword]

So they have a total debt of 13.2 million on all the properties?
That does not sound too bad considering all the debt Schapp racked up.

Correct, although it does not include unfunded liabilities, such as lifetime retirement at full salary for retired employees.

As long as the staff all agree to work as long as the Colstens did, this seems like a very reasonable benefit.

It was a reasonable benefit instituted by Bro. Schaap when we had millionaires giving us free money.
It is no longer reasonable or workable when it has to come out of the budget.
No organization can afford those kind of benefits if they don't have taxing authority and even taxing authorities can not provide the type of benefits we are now obligated to provide these former employees for as long as they live.

That seems like a very silly statement.
Many industries provide lifetime pensions at the 65 to 85% of base salary rate plus benefits. These industries include, banking, finance & insurance, mining, manufacturing, utilities, management, health providers, shipping & warehousing, energy, & technical & scientific services.
Do you think the church no longer owes the retirement benefits they promised it's long time employees just because they no longer have a healthy cash flow. Do you not get any retirement benefits from your former employer?

Sword said, "Many industries provide lifetime pensions at the 65 to 85% of base salary rate plus benefits. These industries include, banking, finance & insurance, mining, manufacturing, utilities, management, health providers, shipping & warehousing, energy, & technical & scientific services."
Perhaps if we had built up to it with a plan to fund it, it would have made sense. We had no plan and we were not setting aside any funds to pay these benefits. A church is not just any industry and most spend every dime they take in as we did.
When we made the retirement plan we did not take into account that we might not continue to receive millions of dollars of free money every year into perpetuity, shame on us. After all we were accustomed to receiving free money for many decades.
At this point the funding of current benefits takes a substantial part of our budget. This is only for those who have previously retired. We are not currently offering any retirement plan for anyone in the future.
Sword said, "Do you think the church no longer owes the retirement benefits they promised it's long time employees just because they no longer have a healthy cash flow. Do you not get any retirement benefits from your former employer?"
I think I made myself clear by the statement, "..can not provide the type of benefits we are now obligated to provide these former employees for as long as they live."
I have been a business owner for about 50 years, so no my employer does not provide any retirement benefits. By the way I still work about 50 hours a week currently in my consulting business.

This post I am in complete agreement with.

I took your other post to mean you should stop paying the pensions of those who had already retired and that no companies can offer pensions these days. MY BAD

Surely you have been funding a 401K, IRA  or SEP plan for yourself. I can not imagine someone trying to retire on SS alone. Do you think churches should plan & budget for their staffs retirement or "Let God provide". I think all churches with full time staff should budget to "Match" funds for a 401k for their staff. I always hear we can't afford it but our SBC friends seem to make it work. It is a disgrace to have some full time staff living in poverty while other live like CEO's.
 

 

[Twisted]

Surely you have been funding a 401K, IRA  or SEP plan for yourself. I can not imagine someone trying to retire on SS alone. Do you think churches should plan & budget for their staffs retirement or "Let God provide". I think all churches with full time staff should budget to "Match" funds for a 401k for their staff.

One church we were member of had a fund for the pastors retirement.  It was always mentioned at the yearly business /budget meeting.

This pastor started the church and had that requirement in the by-laws.  Smart guy.

As far as I know, this was NOT done for other staff.

 

[sword]

I understand they did not go into the ministry for the money but, I always try to put my self in their shoes.

1. Usually less than average salary for someone with a 4 (or 6) year degree.
2. Normally sub par (high deductible) healthcare if any at all.
3. Free or subsidized housing that ends when you die or retire.
4. A schedule or deacons that may limit your ability to work another job
5. No overtime pay or bonuses for extra hrs. worked
6. Odd hrs with hospital visits, weddings, deaths, funerals, counseling.
7. No pension, savings or retirement plan and if he was extra naive he did not pay into S.S.

I can just imagine the pastor dying after 35 years in the ministry and the church saying "by the way we will continue to pay your husbands salary for 30 days, your healthcare ends on the 1st, and you have until the end of the month to be out of the parsonage because we will be calling a new pastor asap.