Hmmmm

Thanks for your words ItinerantPreacher but my suspicion only comes from what they police officer says Tom told them the day it happened versus what Tom said in his disposition.  On the day it happened the officer said that Tom told him he and his son were in the house when the alarm went off and the burglar came in and Tom shot him.  In the disposition Tom said that his family came home from shopping to the alarm going off.  He went inside to investigate and was jumped by the burglar and after a struggle Tom shot him.

Please tell me where the "wild conjecture" is in that.

I therefore question, based upon years of knowledge of Tom and the Vineyards, the rest of the story too.
 
I guess that this young respectable individual wanted to seek out this pastor in an attempt to find Jesus.....




And he did.....
 
qwerty said:
I guess that this young respectable individual wanted to seek out this pastor in an attempt to find Jesus.....




And he did.....
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Well he was, at one time, bus kid at WHBC as well as SWBC
 
The dead burglar was a 14 year old kid.

According to an article I read, Vineyard was out Christmas shopping when he received notification that his home alarm had gone off. Why didn't he call the police immediately and have them check out the house? They probably would have arrived at the house before he did, and could have handled it better. He entered the house not knowing how many burglars there were or if they were armed?  Why were the police only called after the shooting? Had Tom brought the police in as soon as the alarm was tripped, this might have ended better.

 
AmazedbyGrace said:
The dead burglar was a 14 year old kid.

According to an article I read, Vineyard was out Christmas shopping when he received notification that his home alarm had gone off. Why didn't he call the police immediately and have them check out the house? They probably would have arrived at the house before he did, and could have handled it better. He entered the house not knowing how many burglars there were or if they were armed?  Why were the police only called after the shooting? Had Tom brought the police in as soon as the alarm was tripped, this might have ended better.
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Valid questions I have also.  But it is "wild conjuncture" when I say hmmmmmmm

By the way they never said if the kid was armed or not.  I suspect not by the way it has been reported.
 
AmazedbyGrace said:
The dead burglar was a 14 year old kid.

According to an article I read, Vineyard was out Christmas shopping when he received notification that his home alarm had gone off. Why didn't he call the police immediately and have them check out the house? They probably would have arrived at the house before he did, and could have handled it better. He entered the house not knowing how many burglars there were or if they were armed?  Why were the police only called after the shooting? Had Tom brought the police in as soon as the alarm was tripped, this might have ended better.
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I think I can answer this. It is not the standard thing to do where I am to call the police first. Motion detector alarms go off for a lot of silly reasons, pets, kids who forgot a window etc. I am the emergency call for a family here if they cannot be reached. If the police respond, there is a bill attached. No one wants to pay $100 because there stupid cat set it off. I have gotten the call and went and checked the house without calling the police. (Now, it's Canada, I am not packing). Turns out it was a teenage boy who forgot to set the alarm properly.

Anyway, it is not standard protocol to call the police first, home alarms go off all the time.

Edit:
It appears from the wording here the police were called
http://www.newson6.com/story/27679583/okc-pastor-shoots-and-kills-home-break-in-suspect
"Oklahoma City police said they got a call for an alarm sounding off around 3:15 Saturday afternoon and learned a suspect had broken into the home."
 
Just me said:
Thanks for your words ItinerantPreacher but my suspicion only comes from what they police officer says Tom told them the day it happened versus what Tom said in his disposition.  On the day it happened the officer said that Tom told him he and his son were in the house when the alarm went off and the burglar came in and Tom shot him.  In the disposition Tom said that his family came home from shopping to the alarm going off.  He went inside to investigate and was jumped by the burglar and after a struggle Tom shot him.

Please tell me where the "wild conjecture" is in that.

I therefore question, based upon years of knowledge of Tom and the Vineyards, the rest of the story too.
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I can't find the officer saying that. I can find news reporters saying that.
http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/21/oklahoma-city-pastor-fatally-shoots-home-intruder-video/

Ok, foud one. The reporter says that's what police told them. If indeed true, you are correct, it is contrary to the story now being circulated.
http://www.koco.com/news/police-metro-pastor-fatally-shoots-alleged-home-intruder/30361252
 
It does not cost anything here to call the police to check out a possible burglar. Vineyard's carelessness could have turned out badly for him and his son too. What if there were multiple armed burglars? He did not have a clue what was waiting for him in that house. The police are better trained for such scenarios and would have covered both entrances (probably with a k-9 too) and ordered the burglar to come out of the house. Calling the police would have been safer for all sides. Vineyard handling the scenario himself upped the level of risk for all...and the 14 year old burglar died when he probably did not have to.
 
Another story in the news:

Home invader critically wounded two apartment residents.  A third shot from the invader killed a neighbor.

Legally, a citizen has the right to defend his person and property.

Don't be guilty of condoning the criminal.
 
Binaca Chugger said:
Another story in the news:

Home invader critically wounded two apartment residents.  A third shot from the invader killed a neighbor.

Legally, a citizen has the right to defend his person and property.

Don't be guilty of condoning the criminal.
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He should have called the police.....

they would have sent a dog.
 
Ok so I am about to do a 180 here.  If me and family are at home and my door gets kicked in I shoot to kill.  I am not protecting a TV, I am protecting my family.  However, if you and your family are out of the house it is a police matter and should be left to them.  If he entered that house to confront the intruder he was protecting his TV and in my opinion was not necessary.
 
Binaca Chugger said:
Another story in the news:

Home invader critically wounded two apartment residents.  A third shot from the invader killed a neighbor.

Legally, a citizen has the right to defend his person and property.

Don't be guilty of condoning the criminal.
Click to expand...


qwerty said:
He should have called the police.....

they would have sent a dog.
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The situation being discussed in this thread was not a home invasion robbery. Vineyard and son were safely outside their home. No lives were being threatened until Vineyard made the decision to enter the home to protect his personal property.

The police are very good at clearing a house without having to use lethal force...professionals even. Vineyard notsomuch. Had he let the police do their job, he would not have to deal with the personal guilt of having killed a 14 year old kid. I doubt he will ever be able to clear that picture out of his mind.
 
Tanner said:
Ok so I am about to do a 180 here.  If me and family are at home and my door gets kicked in I shoot to kill.  I am not protecting a TV, I am protecting my family.  However, if you and your family are out of the house it is a police matter and should be left to them. If he entered that house to confront the intruder he was protecting his TV and in my opinion was not necessary.
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Bingo!!!  Most would call the police and not go all Rambo into an unknown situation.  But we are talking about a Vineyard here so no surprise to me.
 
AmazedbyGrace said:
The situation being discussed in this thread was not a home invasion robbery. Vineyard and son were safely outside their home. No lives were being threatened until Vineyard made the decision to enter the home to protect his personal property.

The police are very good at clearing a house without having to use lethal force...professionals even. Vineyard notsomuch. Had he let the police do their job, he would not have to deal with the personal guilt of having killed a 14 year old kid. I doubt he will ever be able to clear that picture out of his mind.
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I suspect Tom was fully aware of the difference also.  Why give an initial account that he and his boy were in the home when the alarm went off then, when giving a sworn statement, tell the truth?  There in lies the heart of the situation.

In my opinion it is just another sign of the over all moral corruptness of that organization.  And as Vineyard teaches "Everything rises and falls on leadership!!"
 
Part of the problem in accurately evaluating the situation in my opinion is the simple fact that we are relying on news reporters accounts to draw conclusions from. I have no trust in news reporters accuracy. None.

The facts of this may be revealed given time, but right now I have a problem with the sources of information and their accuracy, probably as much problem as I have with Tom's own record of truthfulness. One cancels out the other in my mind and I find myself unable to draw a reasonably informed conclusion.
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
Part of the problem in accurately evaluating the situation in my opinion is the simple fact that we are relying on news reporters accounts to draw conclusions from. I have no trust in news reporters accuracy. None.

The facts of this may be revealed given time, but right now I have a problem with the sources of information and their accuracy, probably as much problem as I have with Tom's own record of truthfulness. One cancels out the other in my mind and I find myself unable to draw a reasonably informed conclusion.
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Amen. I totally agree about Tom and reporters.
 
There really is a problem with the accuracy of reputable news sources. I followed this story from the very beginning, using only professional news services (ABC News, OKC Channel 4, etc.) Accounts changed every day. It was reported that the burglar's body was found inside the house and outside. Tom was in the front room and Tom was out Christmas shopping. The burglar entered through the back door, and he entered through the air-conditioning unit.

I got into trouble on another thread for citing news and blog sources from a few years ago, and when challenged, I could only find little information. Professional news services are not as accurate as they claim, because they are in a hurry to get out the news while it is fresh.
 
Just me said:
And WHBC has off duty police officers that are paid to be at every church service.  In talking with those officers they have said to me on several occasions, "If anything happens they will be the first to hit the floor for their safety because of all church members that have concealed carry permits. They do not want to be caught in the crossfire"  They would then chuckle but their face told me they really meant it.

With all the emphisis of guns, shoot first ask questions later and Second Amendment  rights preached and taught by WHBC it is no wonder a cloud of question hangs over Tom's killing of the "intruder".
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When Tommy Boy publically bad mouthed Chief Citty the officers quit guarding the church, they were more loyal to their Chief than Tommy boy. I don't know if they started again but I know they quit about 3 years ago. But you are right I heard them say the same thing.
 
Vince Massi said:
Oklahoma City police released the following statement Tuesday:

“The resident, Tom Vineyard, came home and interrupted the burglary while it was still in progress. Mr. Vineyard became involved in a physical altercation with Reese, inside of the residence. While defending himself during the altercation, Mr. Vineyard shot and killed Reese.”
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So with Tommy Boys dad Rambo Vineyard's training he is not man enough to take down a 14 year old boy? Maybe he should have Melissa fight his fights.



 
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