How did the Body of Christ come to be comprised of 25-40% unbelievers?

[Castor Muscular]

I don't doubt that, but I suspect having 25%-40% (and according to some pastors up to 50%) of the assembly being unbelievers who religiously attend every week is probably of more recent origin.  How recent, I don't know.

*shrug* Then you're not really interested in a theological answer, just a demographic one, which interests me not in the slightest. Take a survey.

No, I was interested in what it is about church that attracts so many unbelievers that they comprise up to 40-50% of their attendees.  I took a guess as to the primary factor, but that doesn't mean my guess is right.

 

[Izdaari]

My guess is that it's always been that way, and in the past when there was much more social pressure to be part of a church, it was probably higher, maybe even much higher, because all kinds of people that normally would never have anything to do with a church felt compelled to be there or suffer dire consequences, such as losing their job or their family, or even being burned at the stake.

 

[lnf]

My guess is that it's always been that way, and in the past when there was much more social pressure to be part of a church, it was probably higher, maybe even much higher, because all kinds of people that normally would never have anything to do with a church felt compelled to be there or suffer dire consequences, such as losing their job or their family, or even being burned at the stake.

I agree with you, Izdaari.

 

[lnf]

I don't doubt that, but I suspect having 25%-40% (and according to some pastors up to 50%) of the assembly being unbelievers who religiously attend every week is probably of more recent origin.  How recent, I don't know.

*shrug* Then you're not really interested in a theological answer, just a demographic one, which interests me not in the slightest. Take a survey.

No, I was interested in what it is about church that attracts so many unbelievers that they comprise up to 40-50% of their attendees.  I took a guess as to the primary factor, but that doesn't mean my guess is right.

why worry about it?..... i always assumed anyone who came to church and wanted to be there was either already saved or wanted to learn to how to be saved....... it would seem to me that a person who believes God directs, decrees and preordains everything would look at extra people in the church and be thankful God sent them there....... ???.... but if He didn;t.... i;m sure He has a purpose for allowing them to attend.... 

Yes...God had a purpose when He drew me (back) to church.  But I'm not sure that my personal salvation experience will be PappaBear-approved.  You see, I attended many different churches in my youth,  mostly Catholic, some Southern Baptist, but many were simply called "protestant", due to the fact that I most often attended church on a military base.  I only went when I was invited by a friend.  My parents were not church attenders.  My mom taught me to pray and to believe in Jesus...but without much further explanation.  I cannot remember a time that I didn't believe in God.  I learned about Father/Son/Holy Ghost, but I didn't have a clear understanding of why we need to pray in Jesus' name.  I knew that I wasn't baptized, and that always bothered me.  Yes, that bothered me, but not enough to find a new church after my dad retired and we moved away, because I had already concluded that church was just a bunch of hypocrites. 

It wasn't until we enrolled my son in a Christian school (he had trouble in the public school) that I began attending church again...and only because I didn't know a Pastor who would sign a statement of faith on our behalf.  So I started attending church.  I walked into church thinking I would make a "sacrifice" for my son's education, but I went out knowing that God had used my son to get me into church.

Six months later, I raced down the aisle for baptism.  Even though I had learned that baptism was simply a sign of obedience and identification, I was convinced that I had to be baptized the following Sunday, lest I die first.

So, I ask PappaBear...do you think I experienced a "proper" born-again experience? 

I personally think God drew me to Himself in my youth, even as I rejected the church experiences of my youth.  He used my son to get me into a church where I would come to know Him and trust Him...and run down the aisle for baptism.  But I have no point-in-time salvation experience.  I only have the gentle drawing, the patient wooing of my Lord Jesus Christ...which resulted in me giving my life to Him.       

 

[Castor Muscular]

My guess is that it's always been that way, and in the past when there was much more social pressure to be part of a church, it was probably higher, maybe even much higher, because all kinds of people that normally would never have anything to do with a church felt compelled to be there or suffer dire consequences, such as losing their job or their family, or even being burned at the stake.

That doesn't account for pre-Constantine, though.  But I have no idea if there were 25%-40% unbelievers in assemblies before Constantine.  I would expect not, since the church was persecuted and it wouldn't be very attractive to unbelievers to be pretend Christians. 

Also, I don't know off hand when people started being persecuted for being non-Christians.  Wasn't that pretty late in history (relatively)?  I also don't know if there were many unbelievers at churches then, either.

I just wonder about these things, so sue me.   You won't get much, though, I'm just a po boy, from a po family.

GAZILLIONTH EDIT:  Also, even if it started during the persecution of unbelievers (which it probably did), why does it persist today?  As an unbeliever, I was never motivated to go to church services.  It was the last thing I wanted to do.  Why so many pretend Christians today if there's no danger in being a non-Christian?  Not even close to danger -- it's a benefit depending on your views.  The answer to THAT gets to the root of my question.  Knowing a time when unbelievers pretended to be Christians in order to avoid persecution isn't an answer. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

maybe it doesn;t persist..... maybe this whole idea that a certain percentage of those attending any given church are non believers is just a figment of your imagination.......didn;t you say your say yourself, or at least imply, it was all hypothetical?... .... so it stands to reason you are probably asking the whys and hows about a situation that hasnt even been proven to exist yet.....

but if you really believe your theory on this is true.... and you seriously want answers to your questions......  then just go out and start asking people ...  :-\..... start with your own church an ask everybody there .... and then when you are satisfied they are either saved or convinced to start packing then move on to other churches..... ..... it wouldn;t be that hard.....  you wouldn;t even have to attend the service at those other churches... ...... just show up as they are about to leave and stand by the door......  then catch them as they walk out......

"excuse me sir... would you mind if i ask you a couple of questions?.....  are you a true believer?..... you are?..... ok... move along then.....  :-\.. .... excuse me maam?.. what about you?......  are you a believer?..... ... you are not sure?..... ???.....  then may i ask you what in the blazes you are doing here?.....  ???.... don;t you know these people use to hold heretic roasts for people like you?.... :.... .. what.. is the summer not hot enough for you?...... ".....

it could work.... might give you the answers you need ...... and might even run a few non believing fakers out of a church at the same time....if that;s really what you want to do....  who knows?....  8)

Um... that's like asking folks if they hate black people.  You're going to get the same answer no matter what the truth may be. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

How about I ask this, then.  Does anyone disagree with these possible reasons why many unbelievers attend church services?

1. Because that's what their family did, or how they were raised.
2. To be seen going to church (big with politicians and business people, I'm sure).
3. It's a place to meet with their friends, extended family, and socialize.
4. They like to socialize (not just friends and family) before and after church service.
5. To show off their new clothes, car, kids, whatever. 
6. They like the entertainment value (music, pastor's performance, whatever).
7. It makes them feel like a better person. 
8. It's a place to meet new people. 
9. They like to perform (sing, play) and choir/band is an outlet for that.
10. They want to be "in good" with the pastor for some reason.
11. They like the outlet for expressions of emotion (probably limited to charismatic churches).
12. Catch up on the latest gossip (probably should go with #3 and #4).

 

[Castor Muscular]

maybe it doesn;t persist..... maybe this whole idea that a certain percentage of those attending any given church are non believers is just a figment of your imagination.......didn;t you say your say yourself, or at least imply, it was all hypothetical?... .... so it stands to reason you are probably asking the whys and hows about a situation that hasnt even been proven to exist yet.....

but if you really believe your theory on this is true.... and you seriously want answers to your questions......  then just go out and start asking people ...  :-\..... start with your own church an ask everybody there .... and then when you are satisfied they are either saved or convinced to start packing then move on to other churches..... ..... it wouldn;t be that hard.....  you wouldn;t even have to attend the service at those other churches... ...... just show up as they are about to leave and stand by the door......  then catch them as they walk out......

"excuse me sir... would you mind if i ask you a couple of questions?.....  are you a true believer?..... you are?..... ok... move along then.....  :-\.. .... excuse me maam?.. what about you?......  are you a believer?..... ... you are not sure?..... ???.....  then may i ask you what in the blazes you are doing here?.....  ???.... don;t you know these people use to hold heretic roasts for people like you?.... :.... .. what.. is the summer not hot enough for you?...... ".....

it could work.... might give you the answers you need ...... and might even run a few non believing fakers out of a church at the same time....if that;s really what you want to do....  who knows?....  8)

Um... that's like asking folks if they hate black people.  You're going to get the same answer no matter what the truth may be.

what can you do about it either way?.........  other than preach the Gospel of Christ and live your own life in a way that shows you believe it and that you love all of mankind.... regardless of their race...as Christ loves them?....and pray Gods will be done..... ...  and why is so important to force that question or to worry about it...... God knows who they are... and He knows how to change them..... sometimes He uses us to help and sometimes He changes them in spite of us....... 

a guy in the Bible.. who actually wrote a small part of it.... dedicated a whole book once to worrying and wondering about things he couldn;t do anything about.....  then at the end of that book he wrote.... "fear God and keep His commandments.... for this is the whole duty of man..... for God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil............ God never told us to search out people within the church who might be non believers and do something about it..... searching out the secret things and bringing them into judgement is His job.... not ours......

Why don't you answer my question above about possible reasons?

 

[rsc2a]

How about I ask this, then.  Does anyone disagree with these possible reasons why many unbelievers attend church services?

1. Because that's what their family did, or how they were raised.
2. To be seen going to church (big with politicians and business people, I'm sure).
3. It's a place to meet with their friends, extended family, and socialize.
4. They like to socialize (not just friends and family) before and after church service.
5. To show off their new clothes, car, kids, whatever. 
6. They like the entertainment value (music, pastor's performance, whatever).
7. It makes them feel like a better person. 
8. It's a place to meet new people. 
9. They like to perform (sing, play) and choir/band is an outlet for that.
10. They want to be "in good" with the pastor for some reason.
11. They like the outlet for expressions of emotion (probably limited to charismatic churches).
12. Catch up on the latest gossip (probably should go with #3 and #4).

I would go with that. I would also add a #13.

13. The Spirit of God is calling and wooing to them, and they can feel "something" that they cannot identify when they are around believers, but it attracts them.

 

[Castor Muscular]

How about I ask this, then.  Does anyone disagree with these possible reasons why many unbelievers attend church services?

1. Because that's what their family did, or how they were raised.
2. To be seen going to church (big with politicians and business people, I'm sure).
3. It's a place to meet with their friends, extended family, and socialize.
4. They like to socialize (not just friends and family) before and after church service.
5. To show off their new clothes, car, kids, whatever. 
6. They like the entertainment value (music, pastor's performance, whatever).
7. It makes them feel like a better person. 
8. It's a place to meet new people. 
9. They like to perform (sing, play) and choir/band is an outlet for that.
10. They want to be "in good" with the pastor for some reason.
11. They like the outlet for expressions of emotion (probably limited to charismatic churches).
12. Catch up on the latest gossip (probably should go with #3 and #4).

I would go with that. I would also add a #13.

13. The Spirit of God is calling and wooing to them, and they can feel "something" that they cannot identify when they are around believers, but it attracts them.

That's a good one.

 

[Castor Muscular]

i don;t know of anyone who goes to church for any of those reasons you listed......

I've seen a picture of your church, and I'd go there just for the scenery.   

But, I believe you and that's very good!  But I think we've already established that many churches, particularly the bigger ones, have a high percentage of unbelievers attending.  When pastors tell me they think up to 50% of their congregation is unsaved, I believe them. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

one more way for you to take another jab at organized churches as we know them and modern christian traditions...

If I think contemporary organized churches and modern Christian traditions deserve criticism, I will offer it for the sake of the Body of Christ.  Even if you're satisfied with the way things are, I'd be surprised if you have a problem with that. 

 

[Headbutter of the gods]

Religious adherence statistics are notoriously unreliable but here in the UK it looks like around a third of survey respondents self-identify as Christian despite having no belief. That's 15 million adults! Obviously that doesn't translate into church attendance but it should be clear enough that a significant number of atheists are regular attenders. Castor has postulated some reasons and I could think of a few more. I would dismiss rc2a's comment as pure invention.

I recall on the old FFF having a conversation with a fool called spgdmin on this subject. I might as well have banged my head on the desk for all the understanding he had, but I did make the point that my own mother is one of these people. Not only does she attend church, but she gets involved in various charitable efforts that it co-ordinates, and moreover, at one time was the Scottish president of a national Christian charity. But she doesn't think that there is a god.

She would like to think it's true, though, and this might be common. Perhaps some of these people are playing a form of Pascal's Wager...

 

[Castor Muscular]

one more way for you to take another jab at organized churches as we know them and modern christian traditions...

If I think contemporary organized churches and modern Christian traditions deserve criticism, I will offer it for the sake of the Body of Christ.  Even if you're satisfied with the way things are, I'd be surprised if you have a problem with that.

if i believed your crusade against modern christian traditions was being conducted for the sake of the body of Christ i wouldn;t have a problem with it at all........ but i don;t believe it...

That's your choice.  Believe what you want.

 

[Timothy]

Perhaps it might be helpful to speculate as to why an unbeliever would want to go to church.

1. Because that's what their family did, or how they were raised.
2. To be seen going to church.
3. It's a social event.
4. They like the entertainment value (music, pastor's performance, whatever).
5. To show off their new clothes, car, kids, whatever.  Maybe this is the same as #3. 

Perhaps someone could come up with more reasons. 

Now -- what reasons would an unbeliever have to purposely avoid going to church? 

And what might we learn from the answers to these questions?

You forgot that they are flat out confused with themselves and life, this seems to work for others, why isn't it working for me, I better attend and perhaps some day this will stick ....

 

[rsc2a]

Perhaps it might be helpful to speculate as to why an unbeliever would want to go to church.

1. Because that's what their family did, or how they were raised.
2. To be seen going to church.
3. It's a social event.
4. They like the entertainment value (music, pastor's performance, whatever).
5. To show off their new clothes, car, kids, whatever.  Maybe this is the same as #3. 

Perhaps someone could come up with more reasons. 

Now -- what reasons would an unbeliever have to purposely avoid going to church? 

And what might we learn from the answers to these questions?

You forgot that they are flat out confused with themselves and life, this seems to work for others, why isn't it working for me, I better attend and perhaps some day this will stick ....

Clearly "pure invention" on your part.

 

[Timothy]

How responsible is the "pastor" for the percentage of unbelievers?

If he preaches properly, wouldn't they eventually leave, or accept Christ?

 

[Castor Muscular]

How responsible is the "pastor" for the percentage of unbelievers?

If he preaches properly, wouldn't they eventually leave, or accept Christ?

I don't think so.  The pastor/sermon model is a theatrical model.  People come to see a performance.  Even if the lost don't like the performance, the social aspects of church will probably keep them coming.  Some might even ENJOY not liking the sermon.

The gathering of the Body of Christ in NT times was not the least bit theatrical, and not centered on one person preaching.  They came together to edify and admonish one another.  I don't think unbelievers would want to be involved in that, unless they're on the cusp of being saved. 

 

[Timothy]

How responsible is the "pastor" for the percentage of unbelievers?

If he preaches properly, wouldn't they eventually leave, or accept Christ?

I don't think so.  The pastor/sermon model is a theatrical model.  People come to see a performance.  Even if the lost don't like the performance, the social aspects of church will probably keep them coming.  Some might even ENJOY not liking the sermon.

The gathering of the Body of Christ in NT times was not the least bit theatrical, and not centered on one person preaching.  They came together to edify and admonish one another.  I don't think unbelievers would want to be involved in that, unless they're on the cusp of being saved.

Not liking the sermon gives them a topic around the dinner table ....

 

[ALAYMAN]

I don't think so.  The pastor/sermon model is a theatrical model.  People come to see a performance...


The gathering of the Body of Christ in NT times was not the least bit theatrical, and not centered on one person preaching.  They came together to edify and admonish one another. 

This is pretty much malarkey.  The Corinthian church, who were coming together for the love feast presumably, messed things up royally.  The idea that "the NT church" in early times was purer than today is just goofy idealism.  And the notion of the sermon not being important is so far out in left field that it is laughable.  The NT is replete with conceptual data that honors the preaching of the word, and the prominence of the word amongst the people of God.  Mot to mention the historical evangelical data that shows the opposite of what you claim.