Jeremy Whitman Lancaster Baptist Church Does anyone know anything about this?

[Binaca Chugger]

I was sexually abused as a child.

Excellent post, thank you for your perspective.  I really appreciate it. I think you're very correct. Also, I completely agree with what you said about the child abuse allegations. To me they're completely unbelievable if they refuse to report them to the police. The idea that pastor Chappell has every police officer in Lancaster under his thumb is completely ludicrous. Not to mention, like others have stated, you can call the child abuse hotline, DCF, the state police, or the FBI. If I found out my child had been sexually abused, I'd be reporting it to anyone who would listen immediately. Full stop. And anyone who refuses to report sexual abuse of their child is highly suspect to me.

Erik Ungerman had not attended LBC in many years and was not currently a member of the church. He *may*have still been on the roll, but nonetheless, was not an active member and had not been for quite some time.

If you know this first hand, which I have no reason to doubt you do, it certainly changes the context of the allegations and mis/dis information.

I have had people leave the church I pastor. The illustration of marriage and the believers relationship to the church is deep. When most people leave a church it is like they are going through a divorce. No one wants to spend time with an ex spouse, no matter who is right or wrong. But here, we assume it is the pastors fault if someone leaves. People leave more often for wrong reasons than because the pastor is at fault.

I repeat, if someone has knowledge of criminal activity, call the police. Step forward. It is a gutless chicken act to simply respond "well, don't go to the sheriff's office, they're his cronies too." Ridiculous. Then call the state police, call the FBI, raise a stink no one can ignore.

The reality is, those who are the quickest to accuse likely know of no actual wrong except rumour and conjecture, and that feeds their self pity. They feel vindicated. They didn't believe what the church believed but left because they weren't allowed to sing a special, or teach a class, or be a deacon. And now, any time any one criticizes the church that "did them wrong", they jump all over it.

That's the FFF in a nutshell, and truthfully, most of the blogs and pundits on the internet as well.

PS. The post above this came in as I was typing. Seems a little of my point was proven.

You really don't understand abuse.  Your lack of knowledge and subsequent wisdom on this topic should cause you to not respond.  Spend some time studying real books (not just those published by your pastor), counseling real abuse victims and go with them to report or face their offender - then come back to the forum.  I think you will modify your posts.

Then I hurt for you.  You should understand that many have an EXTREMELY difficult time admitting what happened to them and facing their abusers.  My point is simply that just because someone is having difficulty with this stage, does not mean it didn't happen.  We who grew up at FBCH are too familiar with the long term ramifications of abusers in power and the difficulty to coming forward.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

As was my wife. I also pastor victims of incest and war vets suffering from PTSD. I am not ignorant of what I speak Binaca Chugger. It is very true there are those who suffer from abuse. But to go from that truth to the conclusion that FFF is a cathartic haven for them is ludicrous.

I was sexually abused as a child.

Excellent post, thank you for your perspective.  I really appreciate it. I think you're very correct. Also, I completely agree with what you said about the child abuse allegations. To me they're completely unbelievable if they refuse to report them to the police. The idea that pastor Chappell has every police officer in Lancaster under his thumb is completely ludicrous. Not to mention, like others have stated, you can call the child abuse hotline, DCF, the state police, or the FBI. If I found out my child had been sexually abused, I'd be reporting it to anyone who would listen immediately. Full stop. And anyone who refuses to report sexual abuse of their child is highly suspect to me.

Erik Ungerman had not attended LBC in many years and was not currently a member of the church. He *may*have still been on the roll, but nonetheless, was not an active member and had not been for quite some time.

If you know this first hand, which I have no reason to doubt you do, it certainly changes the context of the allegations and mis/dis information.

I have had people leave the church I pastor. The illustration of marriage and the believers relationship to the church is deep. When most people leave a church it is like they are going through a divorce. No one wants to spend time with an ex spouse, no matter who is right or wrong. But here, we assume it is the pastors fault if someone leaves. People leave more often for wrong reasons than because the pastor is at fault.

I repeat, if someone has knowledge of criminal activity, call the police. Step forward. It is a gutless chicken act to simply respond "well, don't go to the sheriff's office, they're his cronies too." Ridiculous. Then call the state police, call the FBI, raise a stink no one can ignore.

The reality is, those who are the quickest to accuse likely know of no actual wrong except rumour and conjecture, and that feeds their self pity. They feel vindicated. They didn't believe what the church believed but left because they weren't allowed to sing a special, or teach a class, or be a deacon. And now, any time any one criticizes the church that "did them wrong", they jump all over it.

That's the FFF in a nutshell, and truthfully, most of the blogs and pundits on the internet as well.

PS. The post above this came in as I was typing. Seems a little of my point was proven.

You really don't understand abuse.  Your lack of knowledge and subsequent wisdom on this topic should cause you to not respond.  Spend some time studying real books (not just those published by your pastor), counseling real abuse victims and go with them to report or face their offender - then come back to the forum.  I think you will modify your posts.

It has been for many of us.  While you may have been fortunate to find people who would love, counsel and stand by you or your spouse, many of us found ourselves isolated from anything we every knew when we finally found the courage (or anger) to admit what had happened.  This forum has been a place to discover we are not alone after all.  Others have been through the same experience.  The offender is wrong, though they might never be brought to justice in this lifetime for political reasons.

There really is more on this forum than just assumption.  Go back and read post #93.  The goal of most on this forum is NOT name-calling and dreaming up wild accusations.  We are trying to help others face truth and grow by reminding of what has happened in other places to other people.  We are challenging people to ask difficult questions to ensure they understand the difficult truth.  Ostrich Syndrome helps no one truly heal.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

As was my wife. I also pastor victims of incest and war vets suffering from PTSD. I am not ignorant of what I speak Binaca Chugger. It is very true there are those who suffer from abuse. But to go from that truth to the conclusion that FFF is a cathartic haven for them is ludicrous.

It has been for many of us.  While you may have been fortunate to find people who would love, counsel and stand by you or your spouse, many of us found ourselves isolated from anything we every knew when we finally found the courage (or anger) to admit what had happened.  This forum has been a place to discover we are not alone after all.  Others have been through the same experience.  The offender is wrong, though they might never be brought to justice in this lifetime for political reasons.

There really is more on this forum than just assumption.  Go back and read post #93.  The goal of most on this forum is NOT name-calling and dreaming up wild accusations.  We are trying to help others face truth and grow by reminding of what has happened in other places to other people.  We are challenging people to ask difficult questions to ensure they understand the difficult truth.  Ostrich Syndrome helps no one truly heal.

I want to clarify a couple things. In regards to my wife, it did not happen in church, and it was before she was saved. In regards to the incest, the perpetrator was not a church member, and the perpetrator went to jail for his crimes.

I for my own personal reasons choose to maintain a large measure of anonymity here, buy my heritage points through Jim Vineyard. BC, you and I have had similar posts where you basically accused me of not understanding performance based Christianity, but I do.

In regards to the tone of my posts, you point out post #93, BC, your intent/goal may not be name calling etc, but an online forum is rife with overtones of slander. First of all, there is personal anonymity here. That may seem like a haven to some, but it also provides a place for others to vent misplaced bitterness. Not all bitterness is "misplaced", but "Christendom" is full of people with problems, more so than pastors with problems. Second of all there is doctrinal anonymity here. Because there is, many will not agree with statement, but the natural man is quick to be at odds with the spiritual man. I believe in a repentant faith in Christ alone. Plus nothing, minus nothing. Many here do not, and as a result cannot truly exhibit the fruit of the Spirit, because they know not the Spirit. But you can't tell that from their avatar and username.

Let me point out
Post #5, #8, #22, #28,

How about #37? "we are not done"? Who are we? Typical forum talk.
#39,
#52. Read the article. It's 23 years old. No outrage? It's been 23 years. OR the poster is insinuating something without any facts.

Compare #39 with #83. Post #39 insinuates a cover up, #83 posts facts. My point is it is easy to insinuate without facts, and easier on an online forum.
Compare #59 with #82 and #87. The insinuation is that the shooter left church one day and committed these acts. The reality is neither of the men had been in the church for months. Once again easy to insinuate without facts.

My larger point is that it is naive to think that an anonymous forum with a membership of diverse views will help heal or correct a spiritual problem. It simply turns into a place for embittered people to vent and to rant without consequence.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I want to clarify a couple things. In regards to my wife, it did not happen in church, and it was before she was saved. In regards to the incest, the perpetrator was not a church member, and the perpetrator went to jail for his crimes.

Sorry for you, but glad that you folks were able to see justice served.  Glad to hear you have found grace with which to live with the offender.  Now imagine that instead of your actual experience, you were accused of the wrong while everyone in the only world you know continue to glorify the offender, abandon and shun you from existence.  Imagine that you had been trained to believe that the offender is actually the messenger of God and determiner of His will.  You understand the effects of abuse, now amplify the effects this way - this has been the experience of many in our circles. 

I for my own personal reasons choose to maintain a large measure of anonymity here, buy my heritage points through Jim Vineyard. BC, you and I have had similar posts where you basically accused me of not understanding performance based Christianity, but I do.

I, too, value some anonymity on this forum.  It gives me the ability to express the truth of my experiences while searching for other answers from others who had lived in the same world all while not feeling the wrath of family and friends for searching out what really happened.  Grew up under JV?  Hammond or OK?  Either way, sorry for you.  I grew up under EL.

In regards to the tone of my posts, you point out post #93, BC, your intent/goal may not be name calling etc, but an online forum is rife with overtones of slander. First of all, there is personal anonymity here. That may seem like a haven to some, but it also provides a place for others to vent misplaced bitterness. Not all bitterness is "misplaced", but "Christendom" is full of people with problems, more so than pastors with problems. Second of all there is doctrinal anonymity here. Because there is, many will not agree with statement, but the natural man is quick to be at odds with the spiritual man. I believe in a repentant faith in Christ alone. Plus nothing, minus nothing. Many here do not, and as a result cannot truly exhibit the fruit of the Spirit, because they know not the Spirit. But you can't tell that from their avatar and username.

Let me point out
Post #5, #8, #22, #28,

How about #37? "we are not done"? Who are we? Typical forum talk.
#39,
#52. Read the article. It's 23 years old. No outrage? It's been 23 years. OR the poster is insinuating something without any facts.

Compare #39 with #83. Post #39 insinuates a cover up, #83 posts facts. My point is it is easy to insinuate without facts, and easier on an online forum.
Compare #59 with #82 and #87. The insinuation is that the shooter left church one day and committed these acts. The reality is neither of the men had been in the church for months. Once again easy to insinuate without facts.

My larger point is that it is naive to think that an anonymous forum with a membership of diverse views will help heal or correct a spiritual problem. It simply turns into a place for embittered people to vent and to rant without consequence.

Sure.  There are embittered people here.  Some have chosen to reject God completely or a new variation of religion with new doctrines.  In other threads, we debate and discuss those doctrines.  In cases like this, it is obvious that emotion sometimes gets the better of all of us.  Not emotion at the actual event, but the emotion that these stories trigger inside us.  Still, most of it is warning about the cover-ups we experienced.

Fact vs insinuation?  Hey, it's the internet!  Any or none of anything posted may be true.  When you start reading the internet, you must accept that just because it is there, doesn't mean it is real.  Otherwise, you will wind up dating an overweight French model who wears a fanny pack - Bonjour!

Obviously the we is the power of the press, or in this case, the supposed power of anonymous posters who are challenging people to think independently.

Can healing be found here?  It was for me.  I joined over a year ago in anger to "blast" people.  I was quickly put in my place by Christians who have some different views, challenged to back up what I believe and encouraged to seek truth.  The regulars on this forum became more like a church family than what I had known in the IFB NADD (Not-A-Denomination-Denomination).

 

[Binaca Chugger]

To address the original post - apparently, mommabella, you know more than anyone else here.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

BC, The JV reference, OKC time, but not directly. I am a disciple of a disciple of JV, and my discipler holds JV in high regard. I was never however taught man worship, as a matter of fact the opposite. I was taught to judge everything according to the WOG in context, and to question that which I did not see in context from birth (new) till today. I encourage it as I was taught it, from the pulpit to all who listen.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Can healing be found here?  It was for me.  I joined over a year ago in anger to "blast" people.  I was quickly put in my place by Christians who have some different views, challenged to back up what I believe and encouraged to seek truth.  The regulars on this forum became more like a church family than what I had known in the IFB NADD (Not-A-Denomination-Denomination).[/quote]

:-* :-* :-*

 

[Binaca Chugger]

BC, The JV reference, OKC time, but not directly. I am a disciple of a disciple of JV, and my discipler holds JV in high regard. I was never however taught man worship, as a matter of fact the opposite. I was taught to judge everything according to the WOG in context, and to question that which I did not see in context from birth (new) till today. I encourage it as I was taught it, from the pulpit to all who listen.

Kudos to you.

Back to the subject of the thread, I would encourage people to not blindly accept what is told them.  Not because I know anything that is privy only to me, but because I am familiar with the system from which LBC sprang.  If you have read this far in the thread, you have some concern within you.  Don't play the ostrich.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Can healing be found here?  It was for me.  I joined over a year ago in anger to "blast" people.  I was quickly put in my place by Christians who have some different views, challenged to back up what I believe and encouraged to seek truth.  The regulars on this forum became more like a church family than what I had known in the IFB NADD (Not-A-Denomination-Denomination).

:-* :-* :-*


[/quote]

: yes, rsc2a - you were one of the first to rebuke me.  Thank you.  I enjoy arguing with you and pointing out how wrong you are, except for those rare moments when you are correct when, though it hurts me deeply, I must agree with you.    :

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Can healing be found here?  It was for me.  I joined over a year ago in anger to "blast" people.  I was quickly put in my place by Christians who have some different views, challenged to back up what I believe and encouraged to seek truth.  The regulars on this forum became more like a church family than what I had known in the IFB NADD (Not-A-Denomination-Denomination).

:-* :-* :-*

: yes, rsc2a - you were one of the first to rebuke me.  Thank you.  I enjoy arguing with you and pointing out how wrong you are, except for those rare moments when you are correct when, though it hurts me deeply, I must agree with you.    :
[/quote]

I was? Well, at least you know the truth now.

And, I appreciate your perspective as well as that of most of the other posters here.

Edited to add: Looked it up. Musical preferences and you pointing towards the golden calf passage!

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

BC, The JV reference, OKC time, but not directly. I am a disciple of a disciple of JV, and my discipler holds JV in high regard. I was never however taught man worship, as a matter of fact the opposite. I was taught to judge everything according to the WOG in context, and to question that which I did not see in context from birth (new) till today. I encourage it as I was taught it, from the pulpit to all who listen.

Kudos to you.

Back to the subject of the thread, I would encourage people to not blindly accept what is told them.  Not because I know anything that is privy only to me, but because I am familiar with the system from which LBC sprang.  If you have read this far in the thread, you have some concern within you.  Don't play the ostrich.

No ostrich here. If there are those who know of genuine wrong doing, (not a lack of handshake in the parking lot) then they need to step forward. I encourage then to. If it is illegal, to the police. If it is immoral but not illegal, then it needs to be confronted. Folks need to shake things up if they have knowledge.

What my caution is against is unfounded allegation. Here is a bit of why. As a pastor, I don't have to commit impropriety, I simply have to be accused of it. My good testimony will suffer nearly irreparable damage from merely the accusation.

If you know, tell. If you don't, don't assume.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

No ostrich here. If there are those who know of genuine wrong doing, (not a lack of handshake in the parking lot) then they need to step forward. I encourage then to. If it is illegal, to the police. If it is immoral but not illegal, then it needs to be confronted. Folks need to shake things up if they have knowledge.

What my caution is against is unfounded allegation. Here is a bit of why. As a pastor, I don't have to commit impropriety, I simply have to be accused of it. My good testimony will suffer nearly irreparable damage from merely the accusation.

If you know, tell. If you don't, don't assume.

AH!  We agree!

However, I wish like crazy that people who only had a good supposition would have spoken up before so many were hurt and decades later........  There is a way to address these issues without causing irreparable damage to a good testimony.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Can healing be found here?  It was for me.  I joined over a year ago in anger to "blast" people.  I was quickly put in my place by Christians who have some different views, challenged to back up what I believe and encouraged to seek truth.  The regulars on this forum became more like a church family than what I had known in the IFB NADD (Not-A-Denomination-Denomination).

:-* :-* :-*

: yes, rsc2a - you were one of the first to rebuke me.  Thank you.  I enjoy arguing with you and pointing out how wrong you are, except for those rare moments when you are correct when, though it hurts me deeply, I must agree with you.    :

I was? Well, at least you know the truth now.

And, I appreciate your perspective as well as that of most of the other posters here.

Edited to add: Looked it up. Musical preferences and you pointing towards the golden calf passage! [/quote]

Hey!  Hey!  I still hold to that!  8)

Don't tear down my golden calf!  (get it?  it's a play on words!)
[/quote]

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

No ostrich here. If there are those who know of genuine wrong doing, (not a lack of handshake in the parking lot) then they need to step forward. I encourage then to. If it is illegal, to the police. If it is immoral but not illegal, then it needs to be confronted. Folks need to shake things up if they have knowledge.

What my caution is against is unfounded allegation. Here is a bit of why. As a pastor, I don't have to commit impropriety, I simply have to be accused of it. My good testimony will suffer nearly irreparable damage from merely the accusation.

If you know, tell. If you don't, don't assume.

AH!  We agree!

However, I wish like crazy that people who only had a good supposition would have spoken up before so many were hurt and decades later........  There is a way to address these issues without causing irreparable damage to a good testimony.

There is.
Step 1. Confront them. Privately, but take others who you know to be spiritual with you. Make the leadership/pastor prove accountability both financially and morally. I am never alone with a woman that is not my wife or daughter. Ever. You may go so far as to ask any woman or teenage girl in the church. I try as much as possible to keep my hands off the money. I approve expenditures, but account for pennies. I say take others with you FIRST because if you truly believe there is significant wrongdoing, you will get ahead of any potential cover up or smear campaign. You may not stop one from occurring, but you will lessen it's likelihood. you are not guilty of contravening 1Timothy 5:19 because you are not accusing, merely asking for Biblical accountability. This is the precursor to the accusation. If there is an accusation to be made after the initial meeting, you have established the witnesses necessary to be in compliance with 1Timothy 5:19.

Step 2. If you were wrong, and are genuinely satisfied you were wrong, go no further. If there are repercussions for asking in the first place, you were either right and slick willied, or you were actually wrong about what you questioned but are in a church with an insecure pastor. Confront the repercussions. You may have to repeat step 1, but now for this issue.

Step3. If you are not heard, go again.

Step 4.  If you are not heard again, tell it to the church. Make it public (within the local church) knowledge.

Step 5. If the church won't hear you, withdraw. Get out. If you don't. you will get hurt.

Side note. If some form of discipline is levelled against you, those witnesses will come in handy. First of all, you are not under discipline if you have followed my outline. True discipline for Biblical reasons is a serious matter, 1Corinthians 5:5, but the church lacks authourity to administer discipline for unBiblical reasons. Spiritually, it means nothing. And, any good pastor will recognize the situation if you are up front with him. If he doesn't, it is an indicator that you are not supposed to be there either.

Thats the short version. With specifics, I might have more, but thats the general way to proceed. BUT, proceed we must.

PS. This deals with things that are improper, not illegal. If a pastor steals money, move to have him removed from his office. If the suspicion goes from improper to illegal ie JS, involve the appropriate authourities.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

And, in fairness, my response was off topic.

On topic. If you are in a church where you suspect impropriety, start doing something about it.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

Why was Chappell the one to let the families know of Jeremy's death?! Isn't that something the police do?

I don't know the answer, but I have a couple of ideas.
1) one of the responding officers was a church member (there are a lot of them) and recognized Jeremy as being the deceased, and called Pastor to help bring the news to the family. I know I'd like to have my pastor present while receiving such news from the police.

2) Jeremy left a suicide note in the car asking for him to be notified first and to tell his family.  This is believable to me as well because I know how much he loved his children, and he would've wanted it to be as least traumatic as possible (in his own twisted way of thinking).

Regardless, I don't think there's anything sinister about it.

It is being alleged the rx drugs made him insane enough to hunt down his supposed bff and brutally shoot him many times, putting many passersbys at risk, then going off and shooting himself...If what they are claiming is true I doubt he was thoughtful enough to think of his children's future.

Those two concepts do not match.

I read that he killed himself near his parent's home...I hope that was NOT true. I hope his parents did not find him...I just can't imagine that pain.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

Erik Ungerman had not attended LBC in many years and was not currently a member of the church. He *may*have still been on the roll, but nonetheless, was not an active member and had not been for quite some time.

After Chappell was publicly kicked around he posted about giving the victim's family assistance.

http://www.paulchappell.com/.../an-update-on-the.../

The will be holding some kind of memorial for church members during tomorrow's Sunday night church service...is that even remotely appropriate? At a regular church service?

I still don't get it.  Why is there only one sentence dedicated to the church member who was murdered?

PC now proclaims that JW left employment, family, his whole world, because he was on a prescription drug after a surgery?  ???  I know first hand that those things can make you goofy, but........

I still cry foul.

Pft - they probably still have me on the roll, lol! That is how they report a membership of 10,000...that and counting every satellite church probably. And everyone who drove by during the service.

Church services are for worshipping God, not memorial services. That is my big objection to a memorial on Sunday night.  And Chappell basically introduced the two...so yeah, it would be good to take care of the victim's family the way they are his killer's.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

I'm friends on FB with literally hundreds of LBC church members and they absolutely have been posting about it. Just because the posts are set to "friends only" rather than "public", doesn't mean they aren't posting. I never post anything on public on FB. There's also an entire group on fb dedicated to it. Also, I know for an absolute fact that no one was ordered not to speak to Jeremy, so we can go ahead and nip that rumor in the bud. Several friends of mine had continually tried to reach out to him over text and phone over the past months and he refused to respond to anyone, even friends he'd known for many, many years.

I am also fb friends with many LBCers. A few folks have commented about how bizarre their silence was.

I know of the group you are talking about. Too bad it went private, but heaven forbid anyone get a bad impression about LBC by having comments public... Kinda like how PC doesn't like opening up the comment section of his blog.

Also, he had to turn in his church provided phone, so he did not have the same number. Also, staff are the ones making the allegations that they were told not to contact him. These allegations are very much alive.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

NO!!!  My point is, if you know this to be true then you are responsible to report it to the proper authorities.  If you are not willing then all you are doing is being slanderous.

I have inquired and was told a victim has to come forward and file a report for them to take action. All we can do is encourage them to go to the sheriff's dept. and honestly tell their story. Victims of church abuse face a lot of fear and opposition. People are rejecting their story out of hand because the idea of this happening at their church is so horrific they do not want to believe it.

But to quote a friend of mine:

"Silence helps no one and puts everyone at risk."

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

Also, we don't know if he had moved on to different/stronger drugs. I assume the toxicology screen will shed light on the situation. 

Yes, this I agree with. This particular crime makes a lot more sense if he were a meth addict than a rx drug addict.

Look, I only want to know the truth about Jeremy's motive. I do not trust PC to give me that, so I require a better source. PC lied (through Tim Christoson) to the AVPress about Jeremy being a clerical employee and tried erasing like 20 years of his life by deleting tons of stuff.