Jeremy Whitman Lancaster Baptist Church Does anyone know anything about this?

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A post to the AVTimes by a former staff member:


Worked there for 9 years

January 28, 2014 at 7:03 pm


Diana,
I worked at LBC for 9 years and your comments are exactly what I explained to workers in the interview. I have been behind closed doors in the Leadership meetings and learned how to properly word things to make them sound better than they really are. The articles I have read from the Pastor of LBC sound like more words that sound better than they really were. Jeremy was a good friend while we lived there but when he left the Pastor told the staff in staff meeting to not talk to Jeremy. That alone bothers me. If Love Works then he should allow staff friends to reach out.

Reply
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
Binaca Chugger said:
ItinerantPreacher said:
BC, The JV reference, OKC time, but not directly. I am a disciple of a disciple of JV, and my discipler holds JV in high regard. I was never however taught man worship, as a matter of fact the opposite. I was taught to judge everything according to the WOG in context, and to question that which I did not see in context from birth (new) till today. I encourage it as I was taught it, from the pulpit to all who listen.
Click to expand...

Kudos to you.

Back to the subject of the thread, I would encourage people to not blindly accept what is told them.  Not because I know anything that is privy only to me, but because I am familiar with the system from which LBC sprang.  If you have read this far in the thread, you have some concern within you.  Don't play the ostrich.
Click to expand...

No ostrich here. If there are those who know of genuine wrong doing, (not a lack of handshake in the parking lot) then they need to step forward. I encourage then to. If it is illegal, to the police. If it is immoral but not illegal, then it needs to be confronted. Folks need to shake things up if they have knowledge.

What my caution is against is unfounded allegation. Here is a bit of why. As a pastor, I don't have to commit impropriety, I simply have to be accused of it. My good testimony will suffer nearly irreparable damage from merely the accusation.

If you know, tell. If you don't, don't assume.
Click to expand...

Agreed!
UNTIL there is proof the church or Chappell did wrong, it's only accusation and rumor.
Now, if there is proof of wrongdoing, they should suffer to the fullest extent the law allows!
 
AmazedbyGrace said:
http://biblemadness.com/2014/01/29/when-fundamentalist-baptists-kill-no-one-speaks-ever/
Click to expand...

One man killed another man, tragic, heart breaking, but Itinerant Preacher's lament still stands, especially after reading the blog that you linked to.

"Jeremy Whitman is a bit more complicated. Some have speculated he was working on a book exposing the inner workings of Lancaster Baptist Church. Two articles concerning the shooting have people posting how they were molested as children by authority figures at the church. Was this a subject of Jeremy’s book? Was he writing such a book? In a brilliant show of double standard, those defending the church leap onto such victims demanding to know why they haven’t called the police."

Question:  If Jeremy Whitman was writing a book exposing LBC's inner workings, why did Whitman murder and then go suicidal?
The writer of the blog practically intimates that Chappell had something do with this whole scenario.
Fact: Whitman killed Ungerman,
But the speculation is focused on Chappell as if he pulled the trigger both times.
If Whitman was becoming a threat to LBC, would it not be more logical for Whitman to have been the one who was to be offed and not Whitman murdering someone else?



 
If the motive is not officially released by a trusted source, speculation will continue. Sounds like Chappell was also speculating.

It would be good to settle this issue.
 
AmazedbyGrace said:
If the motive is not officially released by a trusted source, speculation will continue. Sounds like Chappell was also speculating.

It would be good to settle this issue.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure a motive will ever be known.

from the first avtimes article:
"Tiffany
January 20, 2014 at 11:51 pm

Erik Ungerman was my boyfriend of 2 years. He was kind, gentle, and would’ve never hurt anyone. But a drunken brawl with someone who was supposed to be his best friend got him murdered in cold blood...If anyone here has a heart, please pray for his 16 year old daughter, 2 sisters & father. Thank you"


Erik's sister also posted a few times on the avtimes fb. In one comment she said they were like brothers and she has no idea what happened between the two men when they left the house the three shared together.
 
I highly doubt that LBC or PC were involved with the murder-suicide.  I don't think any rational thinker could come to such a conclusion.  However, many are really curious about a staff member leaving and the church being told not to contact him - about cover-up of potential indiscretions within the church that may have driven him from the church - about PC's flip-flopping. 

The girlfriend's comments are extremely telling.  I could see a staff member getting hooked on pain pills, frustrated with the level of junk within the church, decide to rebel against God rather than find truth, hook up with former class members, get in a drunken brawl over who knows what and .........

I am really curious about the "grief counselors" that were brought in to help the church.  Are these certified counselors or the church's cronies?  FBCH used to release press statements about having counselors available, but it just meant that a teen could talk to a staff member, if they dared to risk that feat.
 
Binaca Chugger said:
I am really curious about the "grief counselors" that were brought in to help the church.  Are these certified counselors or the church's cronies?  FBCH used to release press statements about having counselors available, but it just meant that a teen could talk to a staff member, if they dared to risk that feat.
Click to expand...

I was wondering about that too. Chappell has pretty much denied there is such a thing as medically treated depression, thinking it is just a spiritual issue. I remember him saying the depressed person needs to go soul-winning, prayer, etc., like it was a cure all. I do not know if he has changed his mind on that with maturity - I sure hope he has. I can't see LBC using real certified counselors.
 
Binaca Chugger said:
I highly doubt that LBC or PC were involved with the murder-suicide.  I don't think any rational thinker could come to such a conclusion.  However, many are really curious about a staff member leaving and the church being told not to contact him - about cover-up of potential indiscretions within the church that may have driven him from the church - about PC's flip-flopping. 

The girlfriend's comments are extremely telling.  I could see a staff member getting hooked on pain pills, frustrated with the level of junk within the church, decide to rebel against God rather than find truth, hook up with former class members, get in a drunken brawl over who knows what and .........

I am really curious about the "grief counselors" that were brought in to help the church.  Are these certified counselors or the church's cronies?  FBCH used to release press statements about having counselors available, but it just meant that a teen could talk to a staff member, if they dared to risk that feat.
Click to expand...
My favorite policy was the one about "taking advantage of a rare opportunity to chew someone out, who comes to you for unrelated counselling".
I had an older male student attempt to rape me, on HBHS property.  I managed to get away, thank God, due to a passerby willing to investigate my calls for help, as i fought someone 120 lbs heavier than me.

I went to see Bro.Hyles, after waiting for my appointment, like he was the Pope, for weeks,  til i had become bitter inside, and counselling would have fallen on deaf ears.
Finally, when i went into his office, he took the opportunity to chew me out for unrelated events, that Dr. Auclair had accused me of, to him.  Seems I had walked out of the bathroom at the wrong time, as he was looking for the culprit who knocked the trophy case off of the wall.  I had no idea what he was talking about, and felt like i was in a nut house, or on LSD.

I gave up on men, and religion (not God, as I told Him often through those dark times) and began the life of Solomon, trying everything under the sun, to see if there was any satisfaction therein.  There wasn't,  and I began to seek God, instead.

Eventually, I went to HAC, to get training to help people, as i knew, having worked for a men's program home, that i was not alone.
Imagine my thoughts the day that the "doctrine" of taking advantage of a counselling session to "chew out" an estranged teen, was taught in 'Pastoral Counselling' class.

I once again reminded myself of why i gave up hope in man, that day.  I purposed to find the answers from God, and then share them with others. As God is my witness, and as bad a job as i have done at it, I have tried to do that since.

So...there is confirmation to BC's not unfounded apprehension of "grief counselling" FBCH style.

BTW, Bro.Hyles NEVER addressed the issue that I came to him over, in that session.  EL only came to vist me, once, after i quit coming to church for a year or two,  but never spoke to me on Sat. morning, or Sunday Eve, or at wrestling practice.
I was within sight of him 5 times a week.

Greg Webber blew me off, when i asked to tslk to him.  My dad was a deacon, and felt pressure to toe some line.  Eventually he started drinking, and my Mother left us.  She stil claims it was about FBC's reaction to the situation.

But when we have all bought into the false doctrine, that a church has a single man who is its leader, rather than a body with one head...Jesus...we keep having the next generation pop up in the Leadership Cult.






Anishinaabe
 
prophet said:
Binaca Chugger said:
I highly doubt that LBC or PC were involved with the murder-suicide.  I don't think any rational thinker could come to such a conclusion.  However, many are really curious about a staff member leaving and the church being told not to contact him - about cover-up of potential indiscretions within the church that may have driven him from the church - about PC's flip-flopping. 

The girlfriend's comments are extremely telling.  I could see a staff member getting hooked on pain pills, frustrated with the level of junk within the church, decide to rebel against God rather than find truth, hook up with former class members, get in a drunken brawl over who knows what and .........

I am really curious about the "grief counselors" that were brought in to help the church.  Are these certified counselors or the church's cronies?  FBCH used to release press statements about having counselors available, but it just meant that a teen could talk to a staff member, if they dared to risk that feat.
Click to expand...
My favorite policy was the one about "taking advantage of a rare opportunity to chew someone out, who comes to you for unrelated counselling".
I had an older male student attempt to rape me, on HBHS property.  I managed to get away, thank God, due to a passerby willing to investigate my calls for help, as i fought someone 120 lbs heavier than me.

I went to see Bro.Hyles, after waiting for my appointment, like he was the Pope, for weeks,  til i had become bitter inside, and counselling would have fallen on deaf ears.
Finally, when i went into his office, he took the opportunity to chew me out for unrelated events, that Dr. Auclair had accused me of, to him.  Seems I had walked out of the bathroom at the wrong time, as he was looking for the culprit who knocked the trophy case off of the wall.  I had no idea what he was talking about, and felt like i was in a nut house, or on LSD.

I gave up on men, and religion (not God, as I told Him often through those dark times) and began the life of Solomon, trying everything under the sun, to see if there was any satisfaction therein.  There wasn't,  and I began to seek God, instead.

Eventually, I went to HAC, to get training to help people, as i knew, having worked for a men's program home, that i was not alone.
Imagine my thoughts the day that the "doctrine" of taking advantage of a counselling session to "chew out" an estranged teen, was taught in 'Pastoral Counselling' class.

I once again reminded myself of why i gave up hope in man, that day.  I purposed to find the answers from God, and then share them with others. As God is my witness, and as bad a job as i have done at it, I have tried to do that since.

So...there is confirmation to BC's not unfounded apprehension of "grief counselling" FBCH style.

BTW, Bro.Hyles NEVER addressed the issue that I came to him over, in that session.  EL only came to vist me, once, after i quit coming to church for a year or two,  but never spoke to me on Sat. morning, or Sunday Eve, or at wrestling practice.
I was within sight of him 5 times a week.

Greg Webber blew me off, when i asked to tslk to him.  My dad was a deacon, and felt pressure to toe some line.  Eventually he started drinking, and my Mother left us.  She stil claims it was about FBC's reaction to the situation.

But when we have all bought into the false doctrine, that a church has a single man who is its leader, rather than a body with one head...Jesus...we keep having the next generation pop up in the Leadership Cult.



Anishinaabe
Click to expand...

prophet, I remember the incident that happened to you but not how you were treated afterward. I was working in the youth department at the time (driving for TSW, chaperoning youth activities, etc.) but I don't think I ever came to you in an effort to help. For that, I am terribly sorry that I failed to do so. Though we disagree about some things doctrinally, I'm thankful that God brought you through all this and you have sought Him.

You were not alone.

The parents of one of my best friends in middle/high school had a baby girl. During the Sunday School hour one Sunday, a nursery worker dropped the newborn and the baby died. The parents were NOT notified of anything that was wrong until toward the end of the church service (second service) where they were told they needed to go to the nursery. They got there and found out their daughter had been rushed to the hospital. When they arrived, they found out she was in the morgue. Nobody at the church had the decency to notify them WHEN the accident happened. My friend became bitter, not at the accident but at the response and is now a professing atheist.

The last part of the story took place several years later in Church Ed. Ray Young recounted the tragic story about the death of the baby girl and said admitted that the parents were notified a couple hours after the accident. He then went on to say in class that it was done so as not to "prohibit God moving" in the service (or words to that effect). He said that the baby was dead and the grief of the parents and friends should take second step behind the preaching.
 
[quote author=Smellin Coffee]The last part of the story took place several years later in Church Ed. Ray Young recounted the tragic story about the death of the baby girl and said admitted that the parents were notified a couple hours after the accident. He then went on to say in class that it was done so as not to "prohibit God moving" in the service (or words to that effect). He said that the baby was dead and the grief of the parents and friends should take second step behind the preaching.[/quote]

And people go to this place for theological training?  :o
 
Smellin Coffee said:
prophet said:
Binaca Chugger said:
I highly doubt that LBC or PC were involved with the murder-suicide.  I don't think any rational thinker could come to such a conclusion.  However, many are really curious about a staff member leaving and the church being told not to contact him - about cover-up of potential indiscretions within the church that may have driven him from the church - about PC's flip-flopping. 

The girlfriend's comments are extremely telling.  I could see a staff member getting hooked on pain pills, frustrated with the level of junk within the church, decide to rebel against God rather than find truth, hook up with former class members, get in a drunken brawl over who knows what and .........

I am really curious about the "grief counselors" that were brought in to help the church.  Are these certified counselors or the church's cronies?  FBCH used to release press statements about having counselors available, but it just meant that a teen could talk to a staff member, if they dared to risk that feat.
Click to expand...
My favorite policy was the one about "taking advantage of a rare opportunity to chew someone out, who comes to you for unrelated counselling".
I had an older male student attempt to rape me, on HBHS property.  I managed to get away, thank God, due to a passerby willing to investigate my calls for help, as i fought someone 120 lbs heavier than me.

I went to see Bro.Hyles, after waiting for my appointment, like he was the Pope, for weeks,  til i had become bitter inside, and counselling would have fallen on deaf ears.
Finally, when i went into his office, he took the opportunity to chew me out for unrelated events, that Dr. Auclair had accused me of, to him.  Seems I had walked out of the bathroom at the wrong time, as he was looking for the culprit who knocked the trophy case off of the wall.  I had no idea what he was talking about, and felt like i was in a nut house, or on LSD.

I gave up on men, and religion (not God, as I told Him often through those dark times) and began the life of Solomon, trying everything under the sun, to see if there was any satisfaction therein.  There wasn't,  and I began to seek God, instead.

Eventually, I went to HAC, to get training to help people, as i knew, having worked for a men's program home, that i was not alone.
Imagine my thoughts the day that the "doctrine" of taking advantage of a counselling session to "chew out" an estranged teen, was taught in 'Pastoral Counselling' class.

I once again reminded myself of why i gave up hope in man, that day.  I purposed to find the answers from God, and then share them with others. As God is my witness, and as bad a job as i have done at it, I have tried to do that since.

So...there is confirmation to BC's not unfounded apprehension of "grief counselling" FBCH style.

BTW, Bro.Hyles NEVER addressed the issue that I came to him over, in that session.  EL only came to vist me, once, after i quit coming to church for a year or two,  but never spoke to me on Sat. morning, or Sunday Eve, or at wrestling practice.
I was within sight of him 5 times a week.

Greg Webber blew me off, when i asked to tslk to him.  My dad was a deacon, and felt pressure to toe some line.  Eventually he started drinking, and my Mother left us.  She stil claims it was about FBC's reaction to the situation.

But when we have all bought into the false doctrine, that a church has a single man who is its leader, rather than a body with one head...Jesus...we keep having the next generation pop up in the Leadership Cult.



Anishinaabe
Click to expand...

prophet, I remember the incident that happened to you but not how you were treated afterward. I was working in the youth department at the time (driving for TSW, chaperoning youth activities, etc.) but I don't think I ever came to you in an effort to help. For that, I am terribly sorry that I failed to do so. Though we disagree about some things doctrinally, I'm thankful that God brought you through all this and you have sought Him.

You were not alone.

The parents of one of my best friends in middle/high school had a baby girl. During the Sunday School hour one Sunday, a nursery worker dropped the newborn and the baby died. The parents were NOT notified of anything that was wrong until toward the end of the church service (second service) where they were told they needed to go to the nursery. They got there and found out their daughter had been rushed to the hospital. When they arrived, they found out she was in the morgue. Nobody at the church had the decency to notify them WHEN the accident happened. My friend became bitter, not at the accident but at the response and is now a professing atheist.

The last part of the story took place several years later in Church Ed. Ray Young recounted the tragic story about the death of the baby girl and said admitted that the parents were notified a couple hours after the accident. He then went on to say in class that it was done so as not to "prohibit God moving" in the service (or words to that effect). He said that the baby was dead and the grief of the parents and friends should take second step behind the preaching.
Click to expand...
Sounds familiar as well.

Then we wonder why the outsiders looking in call us a cult.

I remember a heated discussion, during a chapel pastor's meeting, where some were pleading to have certain rules removed, so that the people in their chapels could be bussed in to "get to hear the man of God" (Schaap).
They viewed the lack of finances for bussing, and rules about those who wore gang colors, as somehow limiting God from working in the lives of South Chicago residents.

I remember telling them, They don't need to hear him, God sent you.
That earned me "disloyalty" button.

Anishinaabe

 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Smellin Coffee]The last part of the story took place several years later in Church Ed. Ray Young recounted the tragic story about the death of the baby girl and said admitted that the parents were notified a couple hours after the accident. He then went on to say in class that it was done so as not to "prohibit God moving" in the service (or words to that effect). He said that the baby was dead and the grief of the parents and friends should take second step behind the preaching.
Click to expand...

And people go to this place for theological training?  :o
[/quote]

It's the place to learn what NOT to do...
 
Smellin Coffee said:
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Smellin Coffee]The last part of the story took place several years later in Church Ed. Ray Young recounted the tragic story about the death of the baby girl and said admitted that the parents were notified a couple hours after the accident. He then went on to say in class that it was done so as not to "prohibit God moving" in the service (or words to that effect). He said that the baby was dead and the grief of the parents and friends should take second step behind the preaching.
Click to expand...

And people go to this place for theological training?  :o
Click to expand...

It's the place to learn what NOT to do...
[/quote]Yes.

Anishinaabe

 
I have posted a few times in this thread advocating for truth, and I want to add something.

AmazedByGrace posted a link to an article on a blog called Bible Madness. http://biblemadness.com/who-is-behind-this-madness/
This is the individual behind Bible Madness. I have no idea who the guy is, but here me out for a second. According to his blog, he attended a Christian School (doesn't say that he attended Trinity Baptist Church, just the school. He could have left that out but if he wanted to discredit something, the more credibility he has the better for him) Then he went to BJU for three weeks. That is according to him the totality of his "IFB/Fundamentalist/Baptist/Methodist training Baptist" experience.

Then he writes this statement
This is pretty much standard in most fundamental Baptist churches.  There is never a good time to talk about what went wrong in a church.
Click to expand...
Standard? According to whom?

I can't seem to come up with the statistic any more, but I remember reading that in America there are some 15,000 or so IB churches. Now, because of the independent nature of these congregations, it is hard to get a verifiable count. Suffice it to say, thats a lot of congregations. A lot more than Dwayne Walker of Bible Madness purports to have visited or attended. Yet, he says,
This is pretty much standard in most fundamental Baptist churches.
Click to expand...

Jeri of Lily pad fame lists about 80 or so pastors on her list of abusive pastors. 80/15000 = 0.5% or 1/2 of 1 percent. When you read here, there is a recurrent theme. FBCH, LBC, WHBC, and a few others. Thats maybe 10/15000. 6/100 of 1 percent or 0.0006.

My point is that it is a giant leap to tar and feather IB churches based on the actions of a few. I am not devaluing the trouble anyone has had in a church anywhere, simply advocating fairness and equity and reality in viewing any issue. While some may comment out of a sense of hurt and or passion, there sense of outrage does not make something any more or less true.

When statements use inflammatory language like that they lose all credibility with me. Politicians use language like that all the time. I believe it is especially true that God's people ought not. (I know enough to know that not all here are a child of God. If you are, exaggeration is a sin. 1John 1:9 If you are not, exaggeration is a sin. Romans 3:23)
 
[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]My point is that it is a giant leap to tar and feather IB churches based on the actions of a few. I am not devaluing the trouble anyone has had in a church anywhere, simply advocating fairness and equity and reality in viewing any issue. While some may comment out of a sense of hurt and or passion, there sense of outrage does not make something any more or less true. [/quote]

I completely agree with this, but I would also argue that it would be fair to criticize widespread systemic practices within fundamentalism that make these kinds of rare abuses easy to commit. For example, single-elder rule and the corresponding pastor worship would spring readily to mind.
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
I have posted a few times in this thread advocating for truth, and I want to add something.

AmazedByGrace posted a link to an article on a blog called Bible Madness. http://biblemadness.com/who-is-behind-this-madness/
This is the individual behind Bible Madness. I have no idea who the guy is, but here me out for a second. According to his blog, he attended a Christian School (doesn't say that he attended Trinity Baptist Church, just the school. He could have left that out but if he wanted to discredit something, the more credibility he has the better for him) Then he went to BJU for three weeks. That is according to him the totality of his "IFB/Fundamentalist/Baptist/Methodist training Baptist" experience.

Then he writes this statement
This is pretty much standard in most fundamental Baptist churches.  There is never a good time to talk about what went wrong in a church.
Click to expand...
Standard? According to whom?

I can't seem to come up with the statistic any more, but I remember reading that in America there are some 15,000 or so IB churches. Now, because of the independent nature of these congregations, it is hard to get a verifiable count. Suffice it to say, thats a lot of congregations. A lot more than Dwayne Walker of Bible Madness purports to have visited or attended. Yet, he says,
This is pretty much standard in most fundamental Baptist churches.
Click to expand...

Jeri of Lily pad fame lists about 80 or so pastors on her list of abusive pastors. 80/15000 = 0.5% or 1/2 of 1 percent. When you read here, there is a recurrent theme. FBCH, LBC, WHBC, and a few others. Thats maybe 10/15000. 6/100 of 1 percent or 0.0006.

My point is that it is a giant leap to tar and feather IB churches based on the actions of a few. I am not devaluing the trouble anyone has had in a church anywhere, simply advocating fairness and equity and reality in viewing any issue. While some may comment out of a sense of hurt and or passion, there sense of outrage does not make something any more or less true.

When statements use inflammatory language like that they lose all credibility with me. Politicians use language like that all the time. I believe it is especially true that God's people ought not. (I know enough to know that not all here are a child of God. If you are, exaggeration is a sin. 1John 1:9 If you are not, exaggeration is a sin. Romans 3:23)
Click to expand...

Exaggeration is not always a sin. Sorry. Exaggeration could also be used as a figure of speech or perception (like the Gospel going into "the uttermost parts of the earth". Did that mean the land that is now America? :) )

Look at it from his viewpoint and experiences, not your own. I was in the Hyles-version of the "fundy-bubble" and my perception was that all IFBs were pretty much alike. Those that weren't were the exception so I came out of that "bubble" with a broadbrush. Now a couple decades out and with exposure to many other forms of fundamentalism, I now have the perspective that the "fundy-bubble" I was in might not be the norm after all. We were taught exclusivity and couldn't look outside our own bubble.

Did the author broadbrush incorrectly? I believe so. Was he wrong based from his view from his "bubble"? Probably not. I understand your desire not to be associated with the riffraff of your particular brand of Christianity. But we as people think AND speak in general terms. It is a part of human nature.

If what you say is wrong, then for you to say "Catholics are not Christians" is a broadbrush and simply not true. You then (assuming you would make a comment, though I don't know) would be guilty of what you are accusing Mr. Walker. But you would (correctly) be using it as a generality based on your own personal perspective and biblical understanding.

So realize his hurt and hurt with him. Contact him and SHOW him that not all fundamental Baptists are of the same stripe. Blasting him for a broadbrush doesn't fix his perpective.
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]My point is that it is a giant leap to tar and feather IB churches based on the actions of a few. I am not devaluing the trouble anyone has had in a church anywhere, simply advocating fairness and equity and reality in viewing any issue. While some may comment out of a sense of hurt and or passion, there sense of outrage does not make something any more or less true.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this, but I would also argue that it would be fair to criticize widespread systemic practices within fundamentalism that make these kinds of rare abuses easy to commit. For example, single-elder rule and the corresponding pastor worship would spring readily to mind.
[/quote]

I think that would fall more into a position of doctrinal disagreement.

If you follow my line of logic, based upon your comment, you do not feel/believe that the NT model was a single pastor/elder. If (and I am filling in a lot of blanks here) your version of the NT model was the correct view, ie plurality of elders, that did not prevent problems in the church. The Church at Corinth was rife with issues, The Church at Rome challenged Pauls authourity over them as an apostle, The Churches of Galatia needed to be reminded of Pauls authourity as an apostle.

My point is problems between Biblical leadership and membership have existed since the foundation of the NT church, no matter what your view/belief of leadership is.

I use the same line of thought with the house church movement, those who believe that the issue with Churches is their institutional nature. In other words, according to them, if we went back to the Biblical model of meeting in a house, our problems would be solved. But there were problems in the NT churches in the Bible, which they say were "house churches", so that theory fails.

I have seen plurality of elder churches, particularly Plymouth Brethren. They insist on it. But, they usually have someone they call a "speaking elder". He heads things up. And, if he is a tyrant, he goes unopposed. Without a doctrinal dissertation of my disagreement with the term "plurality of elders", most IB churches that reach any size have a "plurality of elders". Assistant/Associate Pastors and Deacons. (We just don't require it for the church to exist as a church) Same thing. If the Senior/Lead/Head Pastor is a tyrant, bad things happen. If he is not, good things happen. The man not the model is too blame.
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
I use the same line of thought with the house church movement, those who believe that the issue with Churches is their institutional nature. In other words, according to them, if we went back to the Biblical model of meeting in a house, our problems would be solved. But there were problems in the NT churches in the Bible, which they say were "house churches", so that theory fails.
Click to expand...

Are you sure that they believe all "our problems would be solved"? Or are you exaggerating (broadbrushing)?

From those with whom I've had contact, nothing could be further from the truth. The belief is that perhaps some issues will be curtailed but not of the idea that all problems would be eliminated. Assemblies are made of people and people are sinners. In fact in the parable of the Wheat and Tares, Jesus said that tares would be spread among the wheat. And He was talking about assemblies that did NOT meet in the local church building on the corner. His teaching on confrontation and bringing it to the church if necessary was also NOT about an assembly of 500 who meet in padded pews to hear a guy spin his belief on the congregation.
 
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