Binaca Chugger said:
Apparently a bit of history and understanding is needed:
The three R's pulled out of the SBC and went different directions. Roberson started a denomination which quickly became something else and fizzeld out. Rice went with the printed word and rallied people in frustration against the liberalness of the SBC. Roloff completely went off reservation, worked with the rejected children of Christians and fought against the state proclaiming that only he is right. Jack Hyles combined all three of these sentiments into one group which I call the "Not-A-Denomination-Denomination." Paul Chappel, though he disliked JH, is a part of the NADD and now seeks to be the new leader of the group, taking them into the modern century.
I do understand the history. And have opinions about where the error lay in each of the men. Generally:
Roberson's denomination (Southwide Baptist Fellowship formed around 1956 at HPBC) did what any denomination does, robs churches of their autonomy. That being said, I have read Lee Robersons books and have been edified by them. I am a KJV/Standards/IFB, but I read Tozer, Andrew Murray and the likes and receive edification but that does not mean that I am going Christian Missionary Alliance nor am I looking for a formal fellowship under any title.
Rice wrote a ,lot of helpful books and booklets. I have many of them, and use them still from time to time. (The style is a little dated), but his position on the scriptures, the local church, and storehouse tithing (or rather lack of) are not mine. More eat the meat, spit out the bones.
Roloff inspires me also. His tenacity is legendary. However, he chose to fight the state. Not my fight. I am not convinced scripturally that political fights are the business of the CHURCH. They are the business of believers, but excessive politics from the pulpit undermines the evangelization and edification process that the church is supposed to be actively involved in. (That's the short answer of the problem of politics and the pulpit)
I agree with your assessment of the NADD. I remember the 100% Hyles pins. Never owned one. I have a couple of JH books, haven't looked at them in years. Truth is, I was edified when I read them, but I have no need to review them. I got saved in the mid 90's, when Hyles'dom was more or less at it's peak. I immediately saw problems. How can someone possibly pastor what was reported to be some 20 or so thousand people? How do you possibly keep an accurate record of membership? What are all these reports of multitudes being saved? (Statistically the cities of Chicago and Hammond had been saved some 20 or so times, I did the math a long time ago and dismissed it, memory wont pull up the actual number) Statistically the "Hyles Churches" had led the US of A to the Lord. All of it. I could go on, no need to. I rejected what was there long before reading Robert Sumners article in the Bilblical Evangelist, long before JS took over.
I explained that you in an earlier post that I tie my heritage to JV, so performance based Christianity is something I am familiar with.
Now, in regards to PC, I may get flamed here for what I am about to say, but these are my opinions. No one has to follow my opinions. First of all, I recognize the influence that PC has, and is having on IB churches. All those who had/have a mindset that is looking for some sort of national leader have and will flock to PC/LBC/WCBC. Fallout from FBCH is aligning itself for the most part in one of three places. JT of NVBC/GSBC in SC, CS of TBC/CC in KV or in Lancaster. They are looking for a leader, and there are three readily available. This will create a certain amount of man worship, and that is seriously unhealthy. Secondly, Cloud is right. The music is headed in the wrong direction, and the issue is not being rooted out. Staff members are concerned about what will happen if and or when the reigns are handed over. Thirdly / personally, there is hypocrisy in the standards in the staff at the church and the college. An old school IFB uniform is required while at church, or in the college, but not anywhere else. Teens/Young adults smell hypocrisy, especially PK/MK kids. This sets a bad example. You can believe in standards that include distinction between the sexes in dress attire, or not, but it is a bad trend to set an unclear position in front of young people you are training. I may get flamed for my position, but whatever. I have to answer for me, not those who disagree with me.
So, if a young person and or their parents come and ask me about Bible Colleges, WCBC is not high on my list. I don't tell people where to go or not go (I would caution someone if there choice was seriously out of line), but if you ask, I will tell you what I think.
Now, all that being said, I read books from Striving Together. Their book Done is a good witnessing tool, Stewarding Life is a good read, A More Sure Word is well written, and another good tool.
I sdaid all this to say, I haven't drank anyone's koolaid yet.
My issue with this thread is what I see as the baseless innuendos towards PC in regards to his handling of the JW/EU situation. It is never right to twist something to support an argument. That is what the people you warn others of do BC.
Let me give you a for instance. You said in the post I responded to "I have not accused PC of any crime". Technically true, but a statement with plausible deniability. You have not accused PC of any crime before man, but you have accused him of crime before God. Sin. The thread is filled with your innuendos.
Post #21
7. PC lied about his relationship with JW and JW's involvement in the church to the press. (Not true TC spake to the press)
8. When caught, PC changed his story, proclaimed the church's valiant efforts to help this confused man, JW, and decided to honor his life.
I cry foul. Something don't add up.
Post #25
I still cry foul.
Post #57
I really do understand wanting to remember the good and not the bad, but if there are others who are being hurt or crimes left covered......
Post#185
With no more information being posted about the original topic....... Is it safe to assume that life is back to normal at LBC and WCBC?
Let's see, a momentary "oh, my! How??" Followed by the MOG proclaiming that all is well, an isolated case, don't question me or you will end up in the same situation, etc. Now - no investigation, no audit, no disclosure - and all is back to Bubble World?
Post #219
No. There is no proof of any such heinous action. If there is such action, and there is proof, it has been bought, buried or brushed away.
Post#220
Healing can only be found once the bold truth has been accepted, bold repentance for false following, response or behavior has been made, bold forgiveness has been given and bold love is expressed. We are simply encouraging people to ask for the bold, hurtful truth, so that they can find true healing.
I quit going through posts here. Everyone of those posts points the finger while giving you plausible deniability. These posts use the same language as the pastor who says "well, you can do what you want, but I wouldn't do it if I were you". If it goes right, they get to claim "it went well because he followed my counsel". If it goes wrong, they get to say, "well, I told him not to". If the pastor gets confronted, he gets to say "I never told him what to do, that's between him and God". Plausible deniability.
IFB'dom has issues. PC's handling of this situation is not one of them.
