JERUSALEM is not the sole proprietorship of ISRAEL
- Thread starter Route_70
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2012
- Messages
- 13,750
- Reaction score
- 3,859
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Route_70 said:
Can you point out to us which land the Bible does promise to the Jews?
- Joined
- May 11, 2013
- Messages
- 749
- Reaction score
- -1
- Points
- 16
Twisted said:
Thank you, Twisted. I read enough of the webpage to say this: the following passage, copied and pasted from the site, is inaccurate:
"Some 3,500 years ago the Canaanites inhabited the land that God promised to give to the offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (see Timeline). God promised that He would give the land of Israel to the Jewish people as an eternal possession. The promise was unconditional. God confirmed it at least 55 times with an oath and stated at least 12 times that the covenant was everlasting (see Bible References)."
I challenge you or anyone to share here the passage or passages when God promised the land currently occupied by the State of Israel to the Jews.
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2012
- Messages
- 1,744
- Reaction score
- 327
- Points
- 83
(Gen 15:18) In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:Route_70 said:
The land promised to Israel is found in Genesis 15:18 and Ezekiel 48:1-29. Reading these verses you find that the land given to Abraham from God extends from the River of Egypt to the Great River Euphrates. From Hamath, near Damascus, to Kadesh in the south. This has has never been fulfilled yet.
Joshua 21:43-45 is not the Abrahamic land promise from ?the river of Egypt (Nile) to the Euphrates? (Gen15:18). The nation under Joshua never occupied this complete territory. The land promised to the ?fathers? alludes to the promise made to Moses (Deut 11:24) and referred to land taken by conquest (Josh 1:3).
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
It is clear in the context that the first gathering was the exodus from Egypt (Ex 14:26-29) which is the only one that would make sense to Isaiah?s generation. Also notice that the Jews are to come not from the ?East,? as when they returned from the Babylonian Captivity, but from the ?four corners of the earth? (Isa 11:12). See also Jeremiah 16:14,15
The Jews have been restored but once, and that was from Babylon. The march from Egypt to Canaan was not a "restoration" because the land had never been in their possession before, and Palestine was never in possession of the Children of Israel until after its conquest by Joshua.
Amos 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
Amos 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
This prophecy was not fulfilled in the restoration from the Babylonian Captivity for they were driven out of the land after that, and this promise is, that they shall no more be pulled out of their land and must refer to some future restoration.
The regathering officially began in 1948 and will continue until the Second Coming of Christ. It will be complete after the Battle of Armageddon in Ezekiel 38. The Jews are outnumbered 100 to 1 and yet every attempt to drive them into the sea has failed and will continue to fail.
Route_70 said:
You do realize how stupid this argument is, right?!
?Moses my servant is dead. Now then, you and all these people, get ready to cross the Jordan River into the land I am about to give to them?to the Israelites. 3 I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. 4 Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates?all the Hittite country?to the Mediterranean Sea in the west.
The New International Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), Jos 1:2?4.
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2012
- Messages
- 1,744
- Reaction score
- 327
- Points
- 83
Concerning them being the physical descendants of Abraham, God has allowed man through DNA to prove that the Jews have been preserved as a distinct race and those now occupying present day Israel are indeed the physical descendants of Abraham.
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48937817.html
Recently published research in the field of molecular genetics ?- the study of DNA sequences ?- indicates that Jewish populations of the various Diaspora communities have retained their genetic identity throughout the exile. Despite large geographic distances between the communities and the passage of thousands of years, far removed Jewish communities share a similar genetic profile. This research confirms the common ancestry and common geographical origin of world Jewry.
Jewish men from communities which developed in the Near East ?- Iran, Iraq, Kurdistan, Yemen -- and European Jews have very similar, almost identical genetic profiles.
"Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
(M.F. Hammer, Proc. Nat'l Academy of Science, May 9, 2000)
These Jewish communities are more closely related to each other and to other Middle Eastern Semitic populations -? Palestinians, Syrians, and Druze -- than to their neighboring non-Jewish populations in the Diaspora.
A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.
Among the Jewish communities sampled, North Africans (Moroccans, etc.) were most closely related to Babylonian (Iraqi) Jews. These populations may best represent the paternal gene pool of the ancient Jewish/Hebrew population dating back to the First Temple period, before the Babylonian exile (approx. 2,500 years ago). The one exception seems to be the Ethiopian Jews or ?Black Jews? who were probably Jewish Proselytes.?
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48937817.html
Recently published research in the field of molecular genetics ?- the study of DNA sequences ?- indicates that Jewish populations of the various Diaspora communities have retained their genetic identity throughout the exile. Despite large geographic distances between the communities and the passage of thousands of years, far removed Jewish communities share a similar genetic profile. This research confirms the common ancestry and common geographical origin of world Jewry.
Jewish men from communities which developed in the Near East ?- Iran, Iraq, Kurdistan, Yemen -- and European Jews have very similar, almost identical genetic profiles.
"Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
(M.F. Hammer, Proc. Nat'l Academy of Science, May 9, 2000)
These Jewish communities are more closely related to each other and to other Middle Eastern Semitic populations -? Palestinians, Syrians, and Druze -- than to their neighboring non-Jewish populations in the Diaspora.
A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.
Among the Jewish communities sampled, North Africans (Moroccans, etc.) were most closely related to Babylonian (Iraqi) Jews. These populations may best represent the paternal gene pool of the ancient Jewish/Hebrew population dating back to the First Temple period, before the Babylonian exile (approx. 2,500 years ago). The one exception seems to be the Ethiopian Jews or ?Black Jews? who were probably Jewish Proselytes.?
- Joined
- May 11, 2013
- Messages
- 749
- Reaction score
- -1
- Points
- 16
Just so we all understand each other here: The promise that God made to Abraham regarding his "seed" does not apply to anyone who is currently living in the land now occupied by the State of Israel, or to any other tribe of Israel, or to the Jews or anyone who calls himself Jew.
If you believe that the current State of Israel is entitled to sole ownership and occupation of the current city of Jerusalem, then you are wrong.
And here is the PROOF:
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ ... till the seed should come to whom the promise was made ... There is neither Jew nor Greek ... And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
The above words taken from the letter to the Galatians (3:16 - 29), written by the Apostle Paul clearly state that the promise God made to Abraham regarding his seed had nothing to do with Abraham's biological, physical descendants.
Unless you want to argue with the Apostle Paul.
If you believe that the current State of Israel is entitled to sole ownership and occupation of the current city of Jerusalem, then you are wrong.
And here is the PROOF:
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ ... till the seed should come to whom the promise was made ... There is neither Jew nor Greek ... And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
The above words taken from the letter to the Galatians (3:16 - 29), written by the Apostle Paul clearly state that the promise God made to Abraham regarding his seed had nothing to do with Abraham's biological, physical descendants.
Unless you want to argue with the Apostle Paul.
- Joined
- May 11, 2013
- Messages
- 749
- Reaction score
- -1
- Points
- 16
biscuit1953 said:
I have researched the DNA work done on Jews. The results that show a connection to the Middle East apply to only about 15% of those who call themselves Jews. The other 85% are more connected to Eastern Europe (Russia, Poland, etc.)
Furthermore, almost 100% of the local inhabitants (Palestinians, Bedouins) show a distinct genetic connection to the Land of Palestine dating back as far as 3500 to 4000 years!
Ergo, the Palestinians have a more viable claim to the land than do the Jews.
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2012
- Messages
- 1,744
- Reaction score
- 327
- Points
- 83
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.Route_70 said:
This is obviously referring to the law having fulfilled its primary function once the promised Seed came to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). The Galatians were foolish to want to return to legalistic bondage (Gal 3:1). It has nothing to do with the unconditional covenant God made with Abraham concerning the land grant.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
The verse does not deny that there are racial, social and sexual distinctions among Christians. Only Democrats do that. Spiritual equality does not mean sameness. The three persons of the Trinity are equal in deity but different in role. Women are spiritually equal with men but have different roles in the church and society.
This whole thread's theme is idiotic...Let's see Israel is a sovereign nation, Jerusalem is in the sovereign nation of Israel, Israel chooses Jerusalem as its capitol...so Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel. No other nation tells us which city is our countries capitol...nor should they Israel or any other sovereign nation.
Route_70 said:
... and there we are.
- Joined
- May 11, 2013
- Messages
- 749
- Reaction score
- -1
- Points
- 16
biscuit1953 said:
"It has nothing to do with the unconditional covenant God made with Abraham concerning the land grant."
How can you make such an assertion? Paul said "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."
Paul is clearly telling the Jews in Galatia that God's promise to Abraham regrding his seed had nothing to do with them -- land grant or not.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2012
- Messages
- 13,750
- Reaction score
- 3,859
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Route_70 said:
Then you just admitted that you lied in the OP.
- Joined
- May 11, 2013
- Messages
- 749
- Reaction score
- -1
- Points
- 16
T-Bone said:
Israel is a sovereign nation. There is no denying it. But is should not be so. The declaration of Independance made by the Zionists in 1948 on the day the British left, followed within minutes by an official recognition by the U.S., was a travesty. There were people already living there; and for someone else to go in and claim the land as theirs was illegal according to international law at the time.
Israel's continual occupation of Palestinian territory is a violation of the Geneva Convention and violates international law.
As to the theme and purpose of this post, I am showing how wrong is the argument made by Christians that the State of Israel has a right to exist because the land was given to them, when God made a promise to Abraham regarding his seed. The "seed" referred to in Genesis was Jesus, according to Paul, as I have shown from Galatians.
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2012
- Messages
- 1,744
- Reaction score
- 327
- Points
- 83
The case for the church replacing Israel is true only as far as the spiritual aspects of it are concerned. There is no doubt that all born again Christians are spiritual Jews because of faith and Abraham represents that (Rom 4), but that does not abrogate the promises concerning Abraham's physical seed. Prophecies have always been fulfilled literally and is the greatest proof that the Bible is inspired as opposed to the Koran and all other religious literature. The Old Testament prophets proclaimed that one day the Jews would go back to their homeland never to be driven out again. That started in 1948 and is continuing in 2017, I would rather believe the prophets and my lying eyes than you.Route_70 said:
- Joined
- May 11, 2013
- Messages
- 749
- Reaction score
- -1
- Points
- 16
biscuit1953 said:
Ah, the Old Testament prophets ...
Can you not reference anything from Paul or Peter or John or James or any of the NT writers who would concur with this? Why, when preachers preach on end time prophecy, do they only reference Ezekiel or Daniel -- never Paul or Peter?
Why do Jesus and Paul denigrate the Jews of their day?