Parable of the tares

Ransom said:
Who are the "saints" mentioned 13 times from Revelation 5 to Revelation 20?
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They aren't the NT Church. They are tribulation saints. The 144,000 Jews that are sealed are described as being from the twelve tribes of Israel in chapter seven.
 
illinoisguy said:
"All expositors connected with State churches, and those who follow their leading, unite in wresting by interpretation in the support of those false churches, by teaching that the FIELD is the VISIBLE STATE CHURCH, in which the notoriously bad must be allowed to grow without disturbance by healthy discipline, thus using God's word to defend corrupt churches and to keep manifestly wicked men in the church. Christ explicitly declares that the FIELD is the WORLD, and not THE CHURCH, which He everywhere commands His servants to keep PURE by the prompt expulsion of all classes of evil men. . . .

"We learn that God denies to the children of the kingdom the use of FORCE, oppression or PERSECUTION. Christian rulers are forbidden the use of the sword or force to EXTIRPATE heretics. While the churches of Christ must be kept pure, the wicked must be permitted to exist in the WORLD, since the attempt to forcibly root them out of it now would break up the foundations of society and destroy the kingdom of Christ, because it would have no material out of which to renew its membership by conversion to itself."

J.R. Graves, "Parables and Prophecies of Christ," published in 1887.
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I think the nature of the doctrine of church discipline, among other things, is the strongest argument against the interpretation that the parable is about the church.
 
biscuit1953 said:
They aren't the NT Church. They are tribulation saints. The 144,000 Jews that are sealed are described as being from the twelve tribes of Israel in chapter seven.
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Where does the author of Revelation inform us that he is using "saints" differently than in the rest of the New Testament?
 
Ransom said:
Where does the author of Revelation inform us that he is using "saints" differently than in the rest of the New Testament?
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If it was the Church, it would say so. It comes down to whether God has a future plan for Israel or not. I believe that to be the case.
 
biscuit1953 said:
If it was the Church, it would say so.
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"The saints" is a common name for Christians, i.e. the church.

How come that isn't "saying so"?

It comes down to whether God has a future plan for Israel or not. I believe that to be the case.
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It comes down to whether you need to jump through a myriad of dispensational hoops to understand the Bible properly. I do not believe that to be the case.
 
biscuit1953 said:
Revelation chapters 7 and 14 talk about 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel being sealed to preach the everlasting gospel during the terrible time of tribulation.
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Revelation 7:3-8 and 14:1-5 do not make any mention whatsoever of the 144,000 preaching the everlasting gospel. Nor is there any mention of them making any converts. Revelation 7:9-10, the "great multitude," is assumed by some to refer to those converted by the 144,000, but the text does not say that. Also, it is assumed that the episode of the 144,000 takes place after the Rapture, but nowhere does the text say that.

biscuit1953 said:
The main thing is I don’t believe purpose of the Second Coming of Christ is to punish the Church. It will be the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer 30:6-7).
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So the main purpose of the Great Tribulation is for God to pound on the poor Jews? That is a common theme in dispensational prophecy teaching, but I don't believe it. How does this concept, that the Jews are God's main target for wrath in a future tribulation period, fit with Christ's teaching in Matthew 23:35-36 that all of the judgments prophesied against the Jews would be fulfilled within one generation? The prophecy was fulfilled when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, so why would it be necessary to put the poor old Jews through another fulfillment of this already-completed judgment? As for the time of Jacob's trouble, Jeremiah was talking about the Babylonian Captivity of 70 years from 586 to 516 BC. Here again, the prophecy was fulfilled and Jacob was saved out of it when they returned to Judea. Been there, done that.
 
Ransom said:
Where does the author of Revelation inform us that he is using "saints" differently than in the rest of the New Testament?
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“Saints” according to the context can refer to more than just Christians in the Church age. The word simply means “holy ones.” Not only do you have it used for Old Testament saints, but angels are sometimes referred to as “saints” (KJV) as in Deuteronomy 33:2. References to angels at the giving of the Law are found in Acts 7:53; Gal 3:19 and Heb 2:2. It is obvious the saints during the tribulation period described in Revelation are Jewish saints from the twelve tribes of Israel (Rev 7:4).
 
biscuit1953 said:
The Church is not mentioned during the tribulation judgments.
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Clearly Christians are mentioned as being present during the tribulation judgments. The 144,000 are Christians. Christian believers are mentioned in Revelation 7:14-15, 11:3, 12:17, 13:7, 14:12, etc. I don't see how we can get around this by saying that the "saints" are not necessarily Christians. The presence of Christians, during the tribulation period described in John's Revelation, invalidates the use of this prophecy to bolster any hypotheses about a pre-trib Rapture or a primarily Jewish punishment in the future tribulation period.
 
illinoisguy said:
Clearly Christians are mentioned as being present during the tribulation judgments. The 144,000 are Christians. Christian believers are mentioned in Revelation 7:14-15, 11:3, 12:17, 13:7, 14:12, etc. I don't see how we can get around this by saying that the "saints" are not necessarily Christians. The presence of Christians, during the tribulation period described in John's Revelation, invalidates the use of this prophecy to bolster any hypotheses about a pre-trib Rapture or a primarily Jewish punishment in the future tribulation period.
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Clearly the Church is only mentioned seven times in the first three chapters of Revelation. Only Israel and the Jewish saints from the 12 tribes are mentioned after that. It is the time of Jacob's trouble (Jer 30:7). It has nothing to do with the punishment of the Church. I refer once again to 2 Thess 1 where the apostle Paul distinguishes between the tribulation from men and the tribulation from God on a Christ rejecting world.
 
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