Performance based 'Christianity'.

[Mathew Ward]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Just sayin'

True, but there are many ways to "keep his commandments" and not all of them indicate that the person knows God....

Who said otherwise?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I was just sayin'

I don't think anyone on either side of the argument here would say otherwise.
It seems clear to me that the OT, NT and The Words of Jesus, which to some here belong in a category all their own, are clear that a Christian should deal with sin in his or her life....not for judicial purposes but for his or her own good, growth and maturity and maintaining close fellowship with the Father.

So are you confessing sins in order to maintain close fellowship. So those that do not confess their sins fall out of close fellowship.

So in reality you are confessing to restore fellowship.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Just sayin'

True, but there are many ways to "keep his commandments" and not all of them indicate that the person knows God....

Who said otherwise?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I was just sayin'

I don't think anyone on either side of the argument here would say otherwise.
It seems clear to me that the OT, NT and The Words of Jesus, which to some here belong in a category all their own, are clear that a Christian should deal with sin in his or her life....not for judicial purposes but for his or her own good, growth and maturity and maintaining close fellowship with the Father.

So are you confessing sins in order to maintain close fellowship. So those that do not confess their sins fall out of close fellowship.

So in reality you are confessing to restore fellowship.

Have you actually read any of my posts?
I've stated repeatedly what I believe, we know what Scripture says.
Jesus says in the model prayer...which I assume is our model and not just for the 12 while He was alive.
I wonder again what your Pastor believes about this?

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

 

[Mathew Ward]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Just sayin'

True, but there are many ways to "keep his commandments" and not all of them indicate that the person knows God....

Who said otherwise?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I was just sayin'

I don't think anyone on either side of the argument here would say otherwise.
It seems clear to me that the OT, NT and The Words of Jesus, which to some here belong in a category all their own, are clear that a Christian should deal with sin in his or her life....not for judicial purposes but for his or her own good, growth and maturity and maintaining close fellowship with the Father.

So are you confessing sins in order to maintain close fellowship. So those that do not confess their sins fall out of close fellowship.

So in reality you are confessing to restore fellowship.

Have you actually read any of my posts?
I've stated repeatedly what I believe, we know what Scripture says.
Jesus says in the model prayer...which I assume is our model and not just for the 12 while He was alive.
I wonder again what your Pastor believes about this?

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

You have said it is not for restoring fellowship but it is for maintaining close fellowship. I'm sure you don't see the disconnect.

Sure sounds we confess to restore close fellowship. But hey in your world you have explained it perfectly.

What should it matter what my pastor believes about this when we are having an online discussion?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Just sayin'

True, but there are many ways to "keep his commandments" and not all of them indicate that the person knows God....

Who said otherwise?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I was just sayin'

I don't think anyone on either side of the argument here would say otherwise.
It seems clear to me that the OT, NT and The Words of Jesus, which to some here belong in a category all their own, are clear that a Christian should deal with sin in his or her life....not for judicial purposes but for his or her own good, growth and maturity and maintaining close fellowship with the Father.

So are you confessing sins in order to maintain close fellowship. So those that do not confess their sins fall out of close fellowship.

So in reality you are confessing to restore fellowship.

Have you actually read any of my posts?
I've stated repeatedly what I believe, we know what Scripture says.
Jesus says in the model prayer...which I assume is our model and not just for the 12 while He was alive.
I wonder again what your Pastor believes about this?

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

You have said it is not for restoring fellowship but it is for maintaining close fellowship. I'm sure you don't see the disconnect.

Sure sounds we confess to restore close fellowship. But hey in your world you have explained it perfectly.

What should it matter what my pastor believes about this when we are having an online discussion?

Again, I did not make that statement in a vacuum, but in the context of my other posts on the issue. I notice you continue to ignore the Biblical proof and ask me insane questions.

You are the one who asked me about my preaching....so wouldn't my asking about the preaching at your church be just as legitimate? 

And, I'm not advocating some far fetched position, but one that is fairly mainstream in evangelicalism. You believe you should repent of your sins, but somehow begrudge the fact that others do as well.

 

[Mathew Ward]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Just sayin'

True, but there are many ways to "keep his commandments" and not all of them indicate that the person knows God....

Who said otherwise?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I was just sayin'

I don't think anyone on either side of the argument here would say otherwise.
It seems clear to me that the OT, NT and The Words of Jesus, which to some here belong in a category all their own, are clear that a Christian should deal with sin in his or her life....not for judicial purposes but for his or her own good, growth and maturity and maintaining close fellowship with the Father.

So are you confessing sins in order to maintain close fellowship. So those that do not confess their sins fall out of close fellowship.

So in reality you are confessing to restore fellowship.

Have you actually read any of my posts?
I've stated repeatedly what I believe, we know what Scripture says.
Jesus says in the model prayer...which I assume is our model and not just for the 12 while He was alive.
I wonder again what your Pastor believes about this?

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

You have said it is not for restoring fellowship but it is for maintaining close fellowship. I'm sure you don't see the disconnect.

Sure sounds we confess to restore close fellowship. But hey in your world you have explained it perfectly.

What should it matter what my pastor believes about this when we are having an online discussion?

Again, I did not make that statement in a vacuum, but in the context of my other posts on the issue. I notice you continue to ignore the Biblical proof and ask me insane questions.

You are the one who asked me about my preaching....so wouldn't my asking about the preaching at your church be just as legitimate? 

And, I'm not advocating some far fetched position, but one that is fairly mainstream in evangelicalism. You believe you should repent of your sins, but somehow begrudge the fact that others do as well.

Let me reiterate that confession of sin is used/taught in a performance based Christianity way to get folks to confess in order to restore fellowship with God. I know you don't hold to it to that extent, but to maintain closr fellowship.

If one doesn't do it do they still maintain close fellowship?

It would seem they wouldn't by your statements.

I will say again if folks want to confess their sins  confess on. Not sure where you get I am begrudging them.

I have looked at the Scrptures and found that my sins are gone, never to be remembered no more, paid in full. And yet somehow I am suppose to go to God and ask Him to forgive my sins, those that He has placed under the blood and doesn't have any knowledge of. Ok.

Actually I asked what your members believed, you may want to re-read what I wrote

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Just sayin'

True, but there are many ways to "keep his commandments" and not all of them indicate that the person knows God....

Who said otherwise?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I was just sayin'

I don't think anyone on either side of the argument here would say otherwise.
It seems clear to me that the OT, NT and The Words of Jesus, which to some here belong in a category all their own, are clear that a Christian should deal with sin in his or her life....not for judicial purposes but for his or her own good, growth and maturity and maintaining close fellowship with the Father.

So are you confessing sins in order to maintain close fellowship. So those that do not confess their sins fall out of close fellowship.

So in reality you are confessing to restore fellowship.

Have you actually read any of my posts?
I've stated repeatedly what I believe, we know what Scripture says.
Jesus says in the model prayer...which I assume is our model and not just for the 12 while He was alive.
I wonder again what your Pastor believes about this?

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

You have said it is not for restoring fellowship but it is for maintaining close fellowship. I'm sure you don't see the disconnect.

Sure sounds we confess to restore close fellowship. But hey in your world you have explained it perfectly.

What should it matter what my pastor believes about this when we are having an online discussion?

Again, I did not make that statement in a vacuum, but in the context of my other posts on the issue. I notice you continue to ignore the Biblical proof and ask me insane questions.

You are the one who asked me about my preaching....so wouldn't my asking about the preaching at your church be just as legitimate? 

And, I'm not advocating some far fetched position, but one that is fairly mainstream in evangelicalism. You believe you should repent of your sins, but somehow begrudge the fact that others do as well.

Let me reiterate that confession of sin is used/taught in a performance based Christianity way to get folks to confess in order to restore fellowship with God. I know you don't hold to it to that extent, but to maintain closr fellowship.

If one doesn't do it do they still maintain close fellowship?

It would seem they wouldn't by your statements.

I will say again if folks want to confess their sins  confess on. Not sure where you get I am begrudging them.

I have looked at the Scrptures and found that my sins are gone, never to be remembered no more, paid in full. And yet somehow I am suppose to go to God and ask Him to forgive my sins, those that He has placed under the blood and doesn't have any knowledge of. Ok.

Actually I asked what your members believed, you may want to re-read what I wrote

And read wht I wrote in response...what do the people in your church think they are doing when they confess their sins...because many/most of them probably do. As I've stated on the forum before in our interaction : the fundy left over in you needs the last word.
So, Your next post can be 'It'. 

 

[Mathew Ward]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Just sayin'

True, but there are many ways to "keep his commandments" and not all of them indicate that the person knows God....

Who said otherwise?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I was just sayin'

I don't think anyone on either side of the argument here would say otherwise.
It seems clear to me that the OT, NT and The Words of Jesus, which to some here belong in a category all their own, are clear that a Christian should deal with sin in his or her life....not for judicial purposes but for his or her own good, growth and maturity and maintaining close fellowship with the Father.

So are you confessing sins in order to maintain close fellowship. So those that do not confess their sins fall out of close fellowship.

So in reality you are confessing to restore fellowship.

Have you actually read any of my posts?
I've stated repeatedly what I believe, we know what Scripture says.
Jesus says in the model prayer...which I assume is our model and not just for the 12 while He was alive.
I wonder again what your Pastor believes about this?

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

You have said it is not for restoring fellowship but it is for maintaining close fellowship. I'm sure you don't see the disconnect.

Sure sounds we confess to restore close fellowship. But hey in your world you have explained it perfectly.

What should it matter what my pastor believes about this when we are having an online discussion?

Again, I did not make that statement in a vacuum, but in the context of my other posts on the issue. I notice you continue to ignore the Biblical proof and ask me insane questions.

You are the one who asked me about my preaching....so wouldn't my asking about the preaching at your church be just as legitimate? 

And, I'm not advocating some far fetched position, but one that is fairly mainstream in evangelicalism. You believe you should repent of your sins, but somehow begrudge the fact that others do as well.

Let me reiterate that confession of sin is used/taught in a performance based Christianity way to get folks to confess in order to restore fellowship with God. I know you don't hold to it to that extent, but to maintain closr fellowship.

If one doesn't do it do they still maintain close fellowship?

It would seem they wouldn't by your statements.

I will say again if folks want to confess their sins  confess on. Not sure where you get I am begrudging them.

I have looked at the Scrptures and found that my sins are gone, never to be remembered no more, paid in full. And yet somehow I am suppose to go to God and ask Him to forgive my sins, those that He has placed under the blood and doesn't have any knowledge of. Ok.

Actually I asked what your members believed, you may want to re-read what I wrote

And read wht I wrote in response...what do the people in your church think they are doing when they confess their sins...because many/most of them probably do. As I've stated on the forum before in our interaction : the fundy left over in you needs the last word.
So, Your next post can be 'It'. 

I'm sure there is plenty of Gundy left in me that God is patient and gracious in dealing with. Not so sure it is why I need the last word.

I think it might be your antagonist way or the mischaracterized position of me at times.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Tom what must you do to be right with God? Please list those things.

Well, I could give you a generic answer like, 'Read the Bible.' That would be ducking the question. Alternatively, I could go through it and find every detailed command that is applicable in this dispensation. That would take me months. I get your point just like you get mine. We just disagree with each other. To me, Scripture is clear that although I am accepted in the beloved, positionally, there are things I must do/be in order to be accepted by Him in this moment, practically. I realize many people disagree with me on this but that road runs both ways.

I've actually already written a chapter in my next book about this very topic. I think it is a troubling aspect of contemporary American Christianity and that it provides an incredible amount of cover for an incredible amount of mischief.

1 John 3:22 (KJV 1900)
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Tom could you list the top 5 things we need to do to be accepted by God in the moment?

 

[Fresh Air]

Tom could you list the top 5 things we need to do to be accepted by God in the moment?

Well, I can give you nine immediately off the top of my head. You'll find them in Exodus 20...

 

[Mathew Ward]

Tom could you list the top 5 things we need to do to be accepted by God in the moment?

Well, I can give you nine immediately off the top of my head. You'll find them in Exodus 20...

Not sure why you would leave the Sabbath off the list, since it is listed in Exodus 20 and is given 4 verses. And it is in the middle of the list.

So if a person doesn't honor their mother or father than God will not accept them, would that be a correct application of your belief?

 

[Walt]

Tom could you list the top 5 things we need to do to be accepted by God in the moment?

Well, I can give you nine immediately off the top of my head. You'll find them in Exodus 20...

In this context, what does "accepted by God in the moment" mean?  (Bro Brennan, this is your phrase).  If we are not "accepted by God in the moment", what does it practically mean?

1. God will not answer our prayers?
2. God will chastise us?
3. Other?

I avoided using the phrase "we are not right with God", since I think we spent most of our lives not "right" with God - as soon as we sin any sin, we are not "right" with God.

You referenced the ten (nine) commandments... but even then, there's a difference between stealing to feed one's children, and stealing out of jealousy.  Both are sin, but we don't tend to despise the man who steals to feed a hungry child.  Then there is the the "thou shalt not bear false witness" - is this the same as lying? When we tell a spouse "you're not fat" or "you look good" instead of "you better not go to the beach, or you may come back with a harpoon in you" or "our daughter cried when she saw you in that dress"; these are lies, but isn't false witness telling another person or group something that isn't true: For example, writing on this form or telling church members: "I saw the pastor helping himself to the offering money".

 

[Walt]

Tom could you list the top 5 things we need to do to be accepted by God in the moment?

Well, I can give you nine immediately off the top of my head. You'll find them in Exodus 20...

Not sure why you would leave the Sabbath off the list, since it is listed in Exodus 20 and is given 4 verses. And it is in the middle of the list.

So if a person doesn't honor their mother or father than God will not accept them, would that be a correct application of your belief?

Many Christians believe that the command to keep the Sabbath was only between God and the Jews and do not apply to Christians.

I believe that the principle of a day off to rest is sound, but I don't believe that we need to follow the Jewish rules from Fri evening to Sat evening regarding the Sabbath.