Refuting Calvinism

[The Rogue Tomato]

Another false accusation that Calvinists frighten people with is the statement that if you choose to accept Chirst, that is a good work, and you are teaching salvation by works.

Straw men much?

Please tell me you're not a pastor/preacher. 

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Thank you for answering, I guess I'm being obtuse because I still don't understand. Since you don't wish to explain it better is there a link you would recommend?

I keep asking you what the third option is and you won't answer me!
Option 1: God chooses what we do
Option 2: we choose
option 3: . . .

I've answered you multiple times.  "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." 

On the surface, that would make it seem like Option 1 AND Option 2.  But it's not quite that simple.  And you seem to have the mistaken opinion that if we choose according to God's will, then God must be forcing us to do something we otherwise wouldn't do.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

it would be received. Now, here I preach "come, repent, but come". There I would be compelled to preach (if I was a Calvinist) "Come, don't come, what is that to me. If you are going to come you will, and there is nothing you can do about it, and you will be happy after you do. Some of you want to come, but you can't. Simple as that. Too bad, so sad, but you aren't one of us. Some of you don't even weant to come, so don't, see if i care. Both of you buncha unsaved are vessels fitted to destruction who were chosen in the good pleasure of God to show His wrath. Don't fret, get out of here and live it up. Eat, drink, be merry for this life is all you have. Hell is hell, so why bother trying to be good or moral? It's just gonna get worse after you die so you better make the most of it down here. Some of you feel convicted, tough. If you can come, God will bring you, if you can't, well, now you know why, you just can't, you weren't chosen, or at least you weren't chosen for heaven. I was and I am glad. Jesus saves, well, Jesus saves some, and His blood cleanses sin, well ,some of us at least, so, come, don't come, what is that to me? If God is pleased to send you to hell, so am I.

I'm not at all surprised you see it that way.  I sometimes wonder if you've even read the Bible, let alone understood any of it.

Or, you don't like my answer, but while it is sarcastic and insensitive and from that perspective more or less unacceptable from a pulpit, it expresses the net result of Calvinsims views on salvation.

"My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."

I can see it's not going to go well for you.

You are aware that you would have to convince me you were correct, or I would simply quote the verse back at you and we would merrily go on our way both thinking something like "wait till that guy sees Jesus"?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Thank you for answering, I guess I'm being obtuse because I still don't understand. Since you don't wish to explain it better is there a link you would recommend?

I keep asking you what the third option is and you won't answer me!
Option 1: God chooses what we do
Option 2: we choose
option 3: . . .

I've answered you multiple times.  "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." 

On the surface, that would make it seem like Option 1 AND Option 2.  But it's not quite that simple.  And you seem to have the mistaken opinion that if we choose according to God's will, then God must be forcing us to do something we otherwise wouldn't do.

No, I don't know of any book that explains it better than the Bible itself.  You could read a good translation of Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will" but even that doesn't address the paradoxical nature of our "own" will being the fulfillment of God's purpose.  IMO, it's just a matter of taking what the Bible says at face value. 

Personally, I think "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" says it all.  But you can find God's sovereignty over everything, large and small, plainly taught throughout the whole Bible. 

Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.

People seem to think it reads "apart from you Father's knowledge".  I'm sure you know the song about how his eye is on the sparrow.  But that's not what it says.  It says that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will.  Even that little event is part of God's plan. 

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

And so on.  It's everywhere in the Bible if you simply look and see what's there. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You are aware that you would have to convince me you were correct, or I would simply quote the verse back at you and we would merrily go on our way both thinking something like "wait till that guy sees Jesus"?

I don't have to convince you of anything.  And, no, you can't quote it back at me.  I don't teach/preach, and I don't claim to have the gift of teaching.  I'm just a nobody. 

Here's the sad part.  I know lots of laymen (and women), many of them here on this forum, who have a much more firm grasp of the Bible than you do.  And you're supposed to be the Itinerant Preacher.  Are you a typical example of what they're churning out for preachers these days?  Personally, I'd say "yes, quit your day job."

 

[Vince Massi]

"My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."

I can see it's not going to go well for you.

The first time I met a Calvinist, I realized that it is a religion of fear and false accusation.

 

[bruinboy]

Two things:

I have never met a person, who studied God's Word, with an open mind that did not come to the truth of God's Sovereign Grace.  I witnessed many a pastor, who after sitting down with my FIL, become a Calvinist.  He was a 5 pointer and pastored a church that gave more money to missions, per capita, than any other church that associated with the BBF.

Spuergon (sp)? once said that if God would show him the elect, that would be the people he would preach to. We are commanded to tell everyone of God's saving grace. The rest is 100% up to Him.  BTW, Spuergon preached on Sundays and very seldom gave an invitation. He invited those who wanted to be saved to come back on Monday for further teaching/counseling. NO ONE can talk someone into being saved. You might can talk them into a false confession of faith. It is ALL Him, NONE OF MAN. The example of Lazarus is 100% valid in this situation.

Finally to the free-willys, was Noah's Ark a type of salvation? 

 

[Vince Massi]

Two things:

I have never met a person, who studied God's Word, with an open mind that did not come to the truth of God's Sovereign Grace. 

The phrase "sovereign grace" does not appear in Scripture. If you are referring to irresistible grace, that is a philosophical plug invented in the early seventeenth century. Irresistible grace is not a doctrine--it is not based on Scripture, nor is it based on a misunderstanding of Scripture.

Arminius had discovered a fatal flaw in the philosophies of St. Augustine and John Calvin. If the lost were unable to respond to God (which contradicts Scripture) then they could not accept God's grace if He gave it to them. That's it. Calvinism can't work. Period.  Although John Calvin did not believe in irresistible grace (he had never heard of it), Calvinists invented it to plug this fatal flaw in their philosophy. Scripture is not a factor--irresistible grace is a philosophical plug designed to correct a fatal philosophical flaw in John Calvin's philosophical system.

 

[bruinboy]

Two things:

I have never met a person, who studied God's Word, with an open mind that did not come to the truth of God's Sovereign Grace. 

The phrase "sovereign grace" does not appear in Scripture. If you are referring to irresistible grace, that is a philosophical plug invented in the early seventeenth century. Irresistible grace is not a doctrine--it is not based on
Scripture, nor is it based on a misunderstanding of Scripture.
Arminius had discovered a fatal flaw in the philosophies of St. Augustine and John Calvin. If the lost were unable to respond to God (which contradicts Scripture) then they could not accept God's grace if He gave it to them. That's it. Calvinism can't work. Period.  Although John Calvin did not believe in irresistible grace (he had never heard of it), Calvinists invented it to plug this fatal flaw in their philosophy. Scripture is not a factor--irresistible grace is a philosophical plug designed to correct a fatal philosophical flaw in John Calvin's philosophical system.


Is that it?  Pretty weak.  We will allow you another chance just in case you were too inebriated to follow what we were speaking of. 

 

[Vince Massi]

 

No, Bruin Boy, it's pretty strong. Irresistible grace is not found in Scripture.

As a fundamentalist, I'll continue to use Scripture to refute Calvinism. Slander is not one of my tools.

As I have pointed out previously, Calvinism is a religion of fear and false accusation, not of Scripture.

 

[Recovering IFB]

 

No, Bruin Boy, it's pretty strong. Irresistible grace is not found in Scripture.

As a fundamentalist, I'll continue to use Scripture to refute Calvinism. Slander is not one of my tools.

As I have pointed out previously, Calvinism is a religion of fear and false accusation, not of Scripture.

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
    and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
26 and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,
    ‘You are not my people,’
    there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
    only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
    his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”
29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty
    had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
    we would have been like Gomorrah.”
Israel’s Unbelief
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
    and a rock that makes them fall,
    and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.
John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you. I appointed you that you should go out and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

No, Bruin Boy, it's pretty strong. Irresistible grace is not found in Scripture.

As a fundamentalist, I'll continue to use Scripture to refute Calvinism. Slander is not one of my tools.

As I have pointed out previously, Calvinism is a religion of fear and false accusation, not of Scripture.

Come on.  Say "whosoever".  You know you want to. 

Seriously, I don't get the "fear" part of Calvinism.  Nothing is more comforting than knowing God is sovereign, that he is absolutely and utterly reliable when it comes to even the tiniest detail. 

The most frightening thing I can think of regarding salvation is the notion that God would leave it up to me and my free will, especially since the fall crippled my reasoning with a sin nature and lack of the Spirit.  <shiver>  And add to that the idea that you can LOSE your salvation?  Yeah, that's a real comfort. 

 

[Vince Massi]

You do realize that the passage in Romans refers to God hardening Pharaoh's heart to to physical death. Going to Hell is not mentioned. Pharaoh had already hardened his own heart before God took vengeance.

Furthermore, God stated several times in Exodus that He was doing this so that the Egyptians would know that He is the Lord. God did this to bring the Egyptians to Him, not to send them to Hell.

The Bible teaches that Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath, designed for destruction. But the Calvinist doctrine that this was unconditional is contrary to Scripture. Pharaoh had brought God's curse on himself by mistreating Israel. He had brought God's vengeance on himself by hardening his own heart. THEN God destroyed him in order that His Name would be proclaimed throughout the earth.  Pharaoh was not an innocent man whom God forced to sin, as Calvinism teaches.

The Bible teaches us that the destruction of Pharaoh was physical death; it does not tell us whether or not Pharaoh repented.

 

[rsc2a]

"This passages says that God promised to harden Pharaoh's heart, but what it really means is that Pharaoh was going to harden his own heart." <~~ exact words I heard in a sermon

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

"This passages says that God promised to harden Pharaoh's heart, but what it really means is that Pharaoh was going to harden his own heart." <~~ exact words I heard in a sermon

The one I hear most often is, "God further hardened the heart of Pharaoh because Pharaoh hardened his own heart."  In other words, Pharaoh started it, so it was his own fault.  But that's not the stated purpose recorded in Scripture. 

And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

So, if God had not hardened Pharaoh's heart, he would have let the people go, and God's plan would not have been fulfilled. 

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I think the reason someone might say  Calvinism is a doctrine of fear is because Calvinism requires a capricious God. Look at the verses in Romans that were just quoted. God shows mercy or hardens whoever he wants to. It's all up to his whims. That's kind of scary.

In fact those verses in Romans make me almost not want any part of a God like that.

 

[Recovering IFB]

In fact those verses in Romans make me almost not want any part of a God like that.

Is your issue more with God rather the Calvinist?

 

[Ransom]

The phrase "sovereign grace" does not appear in Scripture.

There's that weak argument again.

I've been writing an article on the Council of Nicaea for an apologetics ministry's blog that I'm involved with. Alexander, the bishop of Alexandria, preached a sermon around AD 313 in which he affirmed that the Son was of the same essence ("homoousios") as the Father; that is, God the Father and God the Son were two Persons in one Being. Arius, a local priest, countered that no, the Son was the first created being, and while he might be divine, he wasn't deity, because he was of different essence ("heteroousios") than the Father.

When the bishops convened at the Council of Nicaea to debate this controversy, Alexander, Athanasius and the orthodox party initially  tried to stick to biblical language. However, they discovered that whatever they said, the Arians always managed to construe the orthodox arguments in a way that was favourable to themselves. To make it plain that the Arians were heretics, the orthodox party had no alternative but to resort to extrabiblical categories such as homoousios and heteroousios.

Without that option and divine Providence, it's quite plausible that the Arians would have persuaded the majority of bishops that were straddling the fence, and we'd all be Jehovah's Witnesses today.

If you want to pretend that an absence of specific terminology in the Bible implies an absence of the reality it signifies, go right ahead. Just recognize that you do so despite the fact it is no argument at all.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I think the reason someone might say  Calvinism is a doctrine of fear is because Calvinism requires a capricious God.

If by "capricious" you mean "arbitrary" or "suddenly changing", then you don't know God. 

If by "capricious" you mean "impossible to predict", then I have to ask, "So, what?  Does God owe you an explanation for how he deals with his own creation?" 

That's pretty much what Romans is saying.  No, he doesn't owe you an explanation.  Who are you to talk back to God and question what he does and why he does it? 

Look at the verses in Romans that were just quoted. God shows mercy or hardens whoever he wants to. It's all up to his whims. That's kind of scary.

Again, "whims?"  That suggests something arbitrary and always changing.  It's not a matter of a "whim".  It's a matter of his discretion (the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation). 

And his discretion is only scary if you don't trust him. 

Which I suspect is your real problem. 

 

[Ransom]

If you are referring to irresistible grace, that is a philosophical plug invented in the early seventeenth century.

I hadn't realized Augustine was so long-lived.

Of course, the term "irresistible grace" wasn't used in his day, either, so he must not have really believed in it, right?

Arminius had discovered a fatal flaw in the philosophies of St. Augustine . . .

Oh. I guess he did, even without the right words. How confusing!

Irresistible grace is not a doctrine--it is not based on Scripture, nor is it based on a misunderstanding of Scripture.

I'm sure this also comes as a surprise to Augustine.

For that very pride has so stopped the ears of their heart that they do not hear, "For what hast thou that thou hast not received?" They do not hear, "Without me ye can do nothing"; they do not hear, "Love is of God"; they do not hear, "God hath dealt the measure of faith"; they do not hear, "The Spirit breatheth where it will," and, "They who are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God"; they do not hear, "No one can come unto me, unless it were given him of my Father"; they do not hear what Esdras writes, "Blessed is the Lord of our fathers, who hath put into the heart of the king to glorify His house which is in Jerusalem"; they do not hear what the Lord says by Jeremiah, "And I will put my fear into their heart, that they depart not from me; and I will visit them to make them good"; and specially that word by Ezekiel the prophet, where God fully shows that He is induced by no good deservings of men to make them good, that is, obedient to His commands, but rather that He repays to them good for evil, by doing this for His own sake, and not for theirs. For He says, "These things saith the Lord God: I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine own holy name’s sake, which has been profaned among the nations, whither ye have gone in there; and I will sanctify my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord, saith Adonai the Lord, when I shall be sanctified among you before their eyes. And I will take you from among the nations, and gather you together out of all lands, and will bring you into your own land. And I will sprinkle upon you clean water, and ye shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you. And I will give unto you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you: and the stony heart shall be taken away out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and will cause you to walk in my righteousness, and to observe my judgments, and do them." And after a few words, by the same prophet He says, "Not for your sakes do I do this, saith the Lord God; it shall be known unto you: be ye confounded and blush for your ways, O house of Israel. These things saith the Lord God: In the day in which I shall cleanse you from all your iniquities, and shall ordain cities, and the wilderness shall be built, and the desolated land shall be tilled, whereas it was desolated before the eyes of every passer by. And they shall say, This land that was desolated has become as a garden of pleasure; and the wasted and desolated and ruined cities have settled down fortified. And whatever nations have been left round about you shall know that I the Lord have built the ruined places, I have planted the desolated places: I the Lord have spoken, and have done it. Thus saith the Lord: I will yet for this inquire of the house of Israel, that I may do it for them; I will multiply them men like sheep, as holy sheep, as the sheep of Jerusalem in the days of her feast; so shall be those desolated cities full of men as sheep: and they shall know that I am the Lord." (Augustine, A Treatise Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, IV.14)

Well, that certainly looks like a lot of Scripture to me; indeed, the majority of the citation is directly quoting the word of God.  So your assertion that it is not based on Scripture is obviously untrue. Do you wish to defend your second assertion, that it is not based on a misunderstanding of Scripture? The empirical reality is that Augustine argued from Scripture, so the only alternative left to you is that it is based on a correct understanding of Scripture.

But you are stuck in error no matter which way we go from here. Looks like you really painted yourself into a corner! Do your homework, next time.