Refuting Calvinism

[Ransom]

Arminius had discovered a fatal flaw in the philosophies of St. Augustine and John Calvin. If the lost were unable to respond to God (which contradicts Scripture) then they could not accept God's grace if He gave it to them.

And God is obviously powerless to make them able, isn't he?

Pfft! So much for Lazarus. Jesus must have been disappointed.

 

[Ransom]

Although John Calvin did not believe in irresistible grace (he had never heard of it)

And now for reality, taken from Calvin's commentary on John 6:44 . . .

Unless the Father draw him. To come to Christ being here used metaphorically for believing, the Evangelist, in order to carry out the metaphor in the apposite clause, says that those persons are drawn whose understandings God enlightens, and whose hearts he bends and forms to the obedience of Christ. The statement amounts to this, that we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected. True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. It is a false and profane assertion, therefore, that none are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from himself, who has formed their hearts to obey him. (John Calvin, Commentary on John, Vol. 1)

That's as good a definition of the doctrine of irresistible grace as you can find.

Oh, wait, did you mean he didn't believe in it, or he didn't use the words? Because I think you're still labouring under the misapprehension that those are the same thing.

 

[Ransom]

"This passages says that God promised to harden Pharaoh's heart, but what it really means is that Pharaoh was going to harden his own heart." <~~ exact words I heard in a sermon

Genesis 1:1 says that God created the heaven and the earth, but what it really means is that it created itself.

 

[Ransom]

I think the reason someone might say  Calvinism is a doctrine of fear is because Calvinism requires a capricious God. Look at the verses in Romans that were just quoted. God shows mercy or hardens whoever he wants to. It's all up to his whims. That's kind of scary.

I find the kind of liberty you take with the biblical text kind of scary. (Isn't there a verse that threatens plagues on people who add to Scripture, or something?)

God does what God wills. That does not imply that his will is arbitrary or capricious - only that it's his. He doesn't need to run his ideas past someone else first.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Hey I got no dog in this fight. I'm just looking for answers

 

[Vince Massi]

Hey I got no dog in this fight. I'm just looking for answers

Happy to help you, Buddy.

Christ enlightens all men: John 1:4,9; 8:12; 9:5
God's grace appears to all men: John 12:32; 16:8; Acts 26:22-23; Titus 2:11
Men can resist God: Jer 13:11; Acts 7:51
Our actions may win souls: 1 Peter 3:1; James 5:19-20
God wants everyone to be saved: Luke 19:10; John 17:21; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; 1 John 4:14; John 12:47; Acts 3:26
Christ died for all: John 1:29; 4:42; 6:33; Rom 5:18; 1 Cor 15:22; 2 Cor 5:14-15; 1 Tim 2:6; 4:10; Heb 2:9; 10:29; 2 Pet 2:1-3; 1 John 2:2; Col 1:20
Why God hardens some: Is 54:15 Rom 1:21 Rom 11:32 Is 6:9-10 AND Acts 28:25-27 Is 48:8 God still desires their salvation Ps 90:3
How God elects people: 1 Pet 1:2 Election does not usually refer to salvation: Rom 9:11-13
People are saved while still blind: 2 Cor 3:13-16
Predestination is not to salvation: Rom 8:29; Eph 1:5
God the Father draws all people to Christ: John 6:44-45
The same works of God can be accepted or rejected by the lost: Luke 10:13

 

[subllibrm]

"Whosoever will" is a doctrine (teaching) for the lost (unbeliever) as an offer of salvation.

"Chosen before the foundation of the world" is a doctrine given to the believer as an assurance of their security in God's hand.

Both are entirely true and clearly taught in scripture. Context and application matter.

I am comfortable leaving it at that.

 

[bruinboy]

Two things:

I have never met a person, who studied God's Word, with an open mind that did not come to the truth of God's Sovereign Grace. 

The phrase "sovereign grace" does not appear in Scripture. If you are referring to irresistible grace, that is a philosophical plug invented in the early seventeenth century. Irresistible grace is not a doctrine--it is not based on Scripture, nor is it based on a misunderstanding of Scripture.

Ever hear of the story of Apostle Paul on the Road to Damascus?  According to the way you believe, Paul could have refused God's saving grace after he was knocked to the ground and blinded by God Almighty.  Who'd have thunk it?

BTW is Noah's Ark a type of salvation? 

 

[Vince Massi]

Ransom, I also believe that Jesus draws all men to Himself. I also believe that God the father teaches all men, and those who respond to this drawing come to Christ. But his is not irresistible grace.

The same Greek word is used for drawing in a netload of fish. But when they start to draw the net, most of the fish escape.

 

[Ransom]

The same Greek word is used for drawing in a netload of fish. But when they start to draw the net, most of the fish escape.

Not the ones the net is designed to catch.

 

[Biblebeliever]

“Our compassion should be intensified by knowing that God cannot be sincerely called upon by others than those to whom, through the preaching of the gospel, His kindness has been known.”

In other words, what Calvin is actually saying is that only those who have been pre-elected and ordained to eternal life can sincerely and genuinely call upon the the name of the Lord.

“We owe it to God to strive for the salvation of others.”

What Calvin really means though, is that we should strive for the salvation of the other Elect.


After all, Calvin did not believe that the Gospel was sufficient to convict and convert the heart of the sinner. He believed that those who are elect that God would force them to get saved without any choice on their part. Hence, "irresistable grace."

How do you over emphasize His sovereignty? Either He is sovereign or He is not. There is no " a little sovereign".

Of course God is soveriegn. But God's soveriegnty does not negate man's free will and responsibility to respond to the Gospel.

 

[Biblebeliever]

And you have documentation of anyone teaching this?

They may not come right out and say it, but that is what they really belive. Have you even studied the "T.U.L.I.P." formula?

Or, you made a strawman out of your obvious misunderstanding of the doctrines of grace and God's sovereignty.

While I certainly do not understand all things, there is something that I do understand is that while God is in control and is sovereign, still though, His sovereignty does not at all negate the free will, choices and responsibility of man for their actions.

Let me quote one of the most enthusiastic, prolific and effective evangelists I ever met. He was taking a fellow pastor friend on his visitation rounds. They pulled up to an apartment complex. As the got out of the car and headed toward the buildings, he turned tot he other man and said "some of God's elect live here, let's go find them".

That is not the mindset of a man who thinks that his efforts are pointless as you have alleged out of ignorance.

When was the last time you saw a Calvinist (James White, John Piper, etc.) street preaching? Or passing out Tracts?

 

[Biblebeliever]

Ok, then provide proper attribution. Name of the work, edition of the work and the page number that supports

your points.

"1. THE covenant of life is not preached equally to all, and among those to whom it is preached, does not always meet with the same reception. This diversity displays the unsearchable depth of the divine judgment, and is without doubt subordinate to God's purpose of eternal election. But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it, great and difficult questions immediately arise, questions which are inexplicable, when just views are not entertained concerning election and predestination. To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it most incongruous that of the great body of mankind some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction. How ceaselessly they entangle themselves will appear as we proceed. We may add, that in the very obscurity which deters them, we may see not only the utility of this doctrine, but also its most pleasant fruits. We shall never feel persuaded as we ought that our salvation flows from the free mercy of God as its fountain, until we are made acquainted with his eternal election, the grace of God being illustrated by the contrast--viz. that he does not adopt all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but gives to some what he denies to others." - Taken from John Calvin's work: Institutes of the Christian Religion (Ch. 21, OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION.).



Now did you get what Calvin was teaching in that passage??


"The pleasure of God that Salvation is offered spontaneously to SOME... while OTHERS have no access to it."

You see, John Calvin basically believed that the covenant of life was only offered to some, or as he calls them, the "elect." While the "NON- ELECT" have no access to it whatsoever. And yet, at the same time, these "non-elect" will have to stand at the Great White Throne Judgment to give account of their lives and also for rejecting the gift of Salvation which THEY NEVER HAD A CHANCE to receive in the first place because after all, they were not a part of the "Elect."

Do you see the utter error of this teaching of Calvinism? Now do you begin to see how this wicked Calvinistic system is based on pride?

The very idea that God saw fit from Eternity past to only offer the Gift of Eternal Life and Salvation to some while not offering it to the majority of mankind is a wicked thing to put on God. I like how Dave Hunt puts it in his book; what love is this? on page 117:


"To say that God commands men to do what they cannot do without His grace, then withholds the grace they need and punishes them eternally for failing to obey, is to make a mockery of God’s Word, of His mercy and love, and is to libel His character."

How do you expect anyone to follow your line of thinking?

Please cite Calvin's original writings not what someone said he said. Only Calvin no one else.

"4. They again object, Were not men predestinated by the ordination of God to that corruption which is now held forth as the cause of condemnation? If so, when they perish in their corruptions they do nothing else than suffer punishment for that calamity, into which, by the predestination of God, Adam fell, and dragged all his posterity headlong with him. Is not he, therefore, unjust in thus cruelly mocking his creatures? I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself. But it does not forthwith follow that God lies open to this charge. For we will answer with Paul in these words, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" (Rom. 9:20, 21). They will deny that the justice of God is thus truly defended, and will allege that we seek an evasion, such as those are wont to employ who have no good excuse. For what more seems to be said here than just that the power of God is such as cannot be hindered, so that he can do whatsoever he pleases? But it is far otherwise. For what stronger reason can be given than when we are ordered to reflect who God is? How could he who is the Judge of the world commit any unrighteousness? If it properly belongs to the nature of God to do judgment, he must naturally love justice and abhor injustice. Wherefore, the Apostle did not, as if he had been caught in a difficulty, have recourse to evasion; he only intimated that the procedure of divine justice is too high to be scanned by human measure, or comprehended by the feebleness of human intellect. The Apostle, indeed, confesses that in the divine judgments there is a depth in which all the minds of men must be engulfed if they attempt to penetrate into it. But he also shows how unbecoming it is to reduce the works of God to such a law as that we can presume to condemn them the moment they accord not with our reason. There is a well-known saying of Solomon (which, however, few properly understand), "The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool and rewardeth transgressors," (Prov. 26:10). For he is speaking of the greatness of God, whose pleasure it is to inflict punishment on fools and transgressors though he is not pleased to bestow his Spirit upon them. It is a monstrous infatuation in men to seek to subject that which has no bounds to the little measure of their reason. Paul gives the name of elect to the angels who maintained their integrity. If their steadfastness was owing to the good pleasure of God, the revolt of the others proves that they were abandoned.50" [size=12pt]- Taken from John Calvin's work: Institutes of the Christian Religion (Ch. 23, REFUTATION OF THE CALUMNIES BY WHICH THIS DOCTRINE IS ALWAYS UNJUSTLY ASSAILED.).


John Calvin clearly does not delineate between the Soverignty & divine will of God and the free will of God's creatures.

 

[Ransom]

Thanks for posting those fine words from John Calvin, Bibleburner. It was a blessing to read the godly reasoning of a true Christian scholar. He certainly makes indy-fundy KJV-only-worshipping Baptist blabbermouths look like drooling retards!

 

[Recovering IFB]

Of course God is soveriegn. But God's soveriegnty does not negate man's free will and responsibility to respond to the Gospel.

Did Paul have a choice on the road to Damascus? I don't think He was seeking God when Christ appeared to Him. We are all unrighteous, no one seeks after Him.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Of course God is soveriegn. But God's soveriegnty does not negate man's free will and responsibility to respond to the Gospel.

Next you'll say it was God's sovereign choice not to be sovereign over man's will. 

Go on.  I love that doublespeak. 

 

[Biblebeliever]

Did Paul have a choice on the road to Damascus? I don't think He was seeking God when Christ appeared to Him. We are all unrighteous, no one seeks after Him.

Sure, Paul chose to go on the road to Damascus.

Well, he definitely was not seeking God at the time he was heading over to Damascus, but when God appeared to Him, Paul then had a choice to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and to obey His command.

 

[Biblebeliever]

Go on. 

http://youtu.be/IULNn-d6tO8


In this first message, we expose the false doctrine of Calvinism known as "Total Inability".

Most Calvinists falsely claim (or falsely believe) that Calvinism starts with the Biblical doctrine of "Total Depravity", which is the Scriptural teaching that through original sin ALL are completely lost and with out hope of salvation without Jesus Christ. But, as we discuss, Calvin and his system of Augustinian doctrines actually goes beyond the Biblical doctrine of Total Depravity and espouses "Total Inability", the real "T" in the Calvinism T-U-L-I-P.

This is the first in a series of messages Refuting Calvinism. This upload is a "reload" with the full 29:30 length video in one single part, in high quality video.

 

[Biblebeliever]

http://youtu.be/3bgcF0ZMJ40

 

[Recovering IFB]

um,no. Jesus said no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father. It takes God to change our heart because we were spiritually dead. If it wasn't for God's grace we would chose not to worship him. Our free will is only choosing to sin.