Refuting Calvinism

[Darkwing Duck]

Surely no one is arguing that God controls everything in the sense that he makes it happen? If that were the case we would have no responsibility for our actions. ( And God would be unjust for punishing all those bible characters for something they couldn't control).

 

[rsc2a]

I have yet to see anyone make any argument against determinism from either a theological or scientific perspective that had been even remotely convincing.

 

[christundivided]

I have yet to see anyone make any argument against determinism from either a theological or scientific perspective that had been even remotely convincing.

You know that determinism is rather broad classification. There's plenty of room to throw "elbows" in that box....

 

[christundivided]

Pathetic view of theology if you think Omniscience has anything to do with your God's divine action.... in forcing you to take a poop at 5:00 PM EST July 18, 2014 instead of 5:01 PM EST. 

Fallacy of no third option:  Either you poop of your own free will, or God forces you to do it (implied: against your will). 

Ironically, if you really want to know if you poop of your own free will, decide never to poop again and see how long you can hold it in. 

Seriously, God's sovereignty over our will is complicated and seems like a paradox to us mere humans.  The best way to illustrate the principle is when Joseph said to his brothers, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."

I realize its a rather complicated issue. I enjoy the debate. I do try to antagonize people too much about it.

Let me propose a alternate observation. If you quit eating and drinking.... you'll not going to have a problem ever pooping again. In such.... I could decide never to poop again. However, I like eating too much to be so stupid....

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Surely no one is arguing that God controls everything in the sense that he makes it happen? If that were the case we would have no responsibility for our actions. ( And God would be unjust for punishing all those bible characters for something they couldn't control).

Yes, I'm arguing that God controls everything.  What you're asking is, “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Funny, I think I've heard that question somewhere before.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Did you get this out of Calvin's writings?

I got it out of his writings and teachings on his heresy of "limited atonement" as well as "irresistible grace."

Ok, then provide proper attribution. Name of the work, edition of the work and the page number that supports

your points.

How do you expect anyone to follow your line of thinking?

Please cite Calvin's original writings not what someone said he said. Only Calvin no one else.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Surely no one is arguing that God controls everything in the sense that he makes it happen? If that were the case we would have no responsibility for our actions. ( And God would be unjust for punishing all those bible characters for something they couldn't control).

Yes, I'm arguing that God controls everything.  What you're asking is, “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Funny, I think I've heard that question somewhere before.

Care to share the answer?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Surely no one is arguing that God controls everything in the sense that he makes it happen? If that were the case we would have no responsibility for our actions. ( And God would be unjust for punishing all those bible characters for something they couldn't control).

Yes, I'm arguing that God controls everything.  What you're asking is, “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Funny, I think I've heard that question somewhere before.

Care to share the answer?

My pleasure.

Who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

What were you expecting the answer to be? 

 

[Vince Massi]

Okay, Okay, I stole this off another forum:

Christ enlightens all men: John 1:4,9; 8:12; 9:5
God's grace appears to all men: John 12:32; 16:8; Acts 26:22-23; Titus 2:11
Men can resist God: Jer 13:11; Acts 7:51
Our actions may win souls: 1 Peter 3:1; James 5:19-20
God wants everyone to be saved: Luke 19:10; John 17:21; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; 1 John 4:14; John 12:47; Acts 3:26
Christ died for all: John 1:29; 4:42; 6:33; Rom 5:18; 1 Cor 15:22; 2 Cor 5:14-15; 1 Tim 2:6; 4:10; Heb 2:9; 10:29; 2 Pet 2:1-3; 1 John 2:2; Col 1:20
Why God hardens some: Is 54:15 Rom 1:21 Rom 11:32 Is 6:9-10 AND Acts 28:25-27 Is 48:8 God still desires their salvation Ps 90:3
How God elects people: 1 Pet 1:2 Election does not usually refer to salvation: Rom 9:11-13
People are saved while still blind: 2 Cor 3:13-16
Predestination is not to salvation: Rom 8:29; Eph 1:5
God the Father draws all people to Christ: John 6:44-45
The same works of God can be accepted or rejected by the lost: Luke 10:13

 

[FSSL]

I would be careful taking that stuff off a forum that also believes one can lose their salvation.

The above decontextualized, Arminian talking-points undermine the idea of eternal security.

 

[Vince Massi]

I met my first Calvinist a year after accepting Christ. He make an error, and I was quoting John 3:16 when he interrupted me by telling me that I was robbing Christ of the glory. Thinking he misunderstood me, I explained that I was quoting John 3:16, and he again objected that I was robbing Christ of the glory.

I learned more good Calvinism from that man than you'll learn in years at the seminary--Calvinism is a religion of fear and false accusation.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Ok I get it but I wasn't really arguing with God.
I'm suggesting that if I kill you then can I really claim that God made me do it or did I have some choice in the matter?

Surely no one is arguing that God controls everything in the sense that he makes it happen? If that were the case we would have no responsibility for our actions. ( And God would be unjust for punishing all those bible characters for something they couldn't control).

Yes, I'm arguing that God controls everything.  What you're asking is, “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Funny, I think I've heard that question somewhere before.

Care to share the answer?

My pleasure.

Who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

What were you expecting the answer to be?

 

[Vince Massi]

Do you reject eternal security?

I believe in eternal security, and not a single verse that I cited shows otherwise.

Brethren, the accusation that you don't believe in eternal security if you believe that God loves the world, that He calls all men to be saved, that He still wants people saved even if He hardens them, that Jesus died for all men, that God draws all people to Himself, that Jesus enlightens all men, that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, etc., is false.

I don't need fear and false accusations to teach those doctrines--every one of them is in the Word of God.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Ok I get it but I wasn't really arguing with God.
I'm suggesting that if I kill you then can I really claim that God made me do it or did I have some choice in the matter?

You can claim that you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. 

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Ok I get it but I wasn't really arguing with God.
I'm suggesting that if I kill you then can I really claim that God made me do it or did I have some choice in the matter?

You can claim that you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

But I chose to do it right? God didn't control me?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Ok I get it but I wasn't really arguing with God.
I'm suggesting that if I kill you then can I really claim that God made me do it or did I have some choice in the matter?

You can claim that you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

But I chose to do it right? God didn't control me?

You figure it out.  "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."  Not permitted it.  Meant it.

 

[Vince Massi]

One of Calvinism's strongest attacks is that they believe in the sovereignty of God.

That attack becomes a lot weaker when you learn that the phrase "sovereignty of God" does not appear in Scripture.

God enlightens all men, draws all men, teaches all men, grants repentance to all men, and gives the grace that brings salvation to all men. I don't need to invent unscriptural phrases to prove any of those Biblical doctrines.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Ok I get it but I wasn't really arguing with God.
I'm suggesting that if I kill you then can I really claim that God made me do it or did I have some choice in the matter?

You can claim that you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

But I chose to do it right? God didn't control me?

You figure it out.  "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."  Not permitted it.  Meant it.

I'm lost. I'm sure you aren't avoiding my question on purpose but I'm quite confused.

I haven't before encountered a Calvinist that would say that a person has no personal responsibility. Most Calvinists believe in punishment for sin. (What exactly are we being saved from if not sin's punishment?)  People may not have a choice in salvation but that doesn't mean people don't have a choice in living their life. The Bible is worthless if everything is already pre-determined. Guilt doesn't exist if one believes that God determined one's actions and not himself.

 

[Vince Massi]

One of Calvinism's errors is that because the lost are dead in trespasses and sins, they cannot respond to God. But on at least three occasions, Jesus spoke to a dead person, and the dead person heard Him and obeyed.

You don't need faulty human logic to refute Calvinism. Just stick close to God's Word.

 

[rsc2a]

One of Calvinism's errors is that because the lost are dead in trespasses and sins, they cannot respond to God. But on at least three occasions, Jesus spoke to a dead person, and the dead person heard Him and obeyed.

You don't need faulty human logic to refute Calvinism. Just stick close to God's Word.

So a major error with Calvinism is the belief that one who is dead cannot respond without God intervening and the proof you have is that "on at least three occasions", a dead person responded to God's intervention whereas, without it, they were incapable of response?