Refuting Calvinism

[prophet]

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

Isn't it precious the way he keeps spelling this out, as if we need a reminder every five seconds what Bible Bibleburner, false prophet of the Antichrist Peter Ruckman, likes?

to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Talk about shooting your own argument in the foot!

Those who become the "sons of God" don't do so under their own power: that power has to be given to them.
The believing ones aren't born "of blood"; you don't inherit your faith from your parents.
They're not born "of the will of the flesh"; it's not by our will. Nor is it "of the will of man"; it's not in the power of any other human being to bring us to faith, either. It is solely "of God."

Of course we don't have the power to regenerate ourselves.
We can't will ourselves to be reborn, only the Creator has that power.
The Bridegroom made us an offer, and those who accept it recieve much....and are regenerated by God.

It doesn't take power to say "yes" to a great offer.

He, in His Sovereignty, set up the parameters and we enjoy the fruits of His labours.

It was His Will that made it our choice.

He is Just, we all had a chance.

 

[Ransom]

The Bridegroom made us an offer, and those who accept it recieve much....and are regenerated by God.

So you can't will yourself to be reborn, but you can accept someone's offer to be reborn? How does this make sense? You contradict yourself.

 

[prophet]

The Bridegroom made us an offer, and those who accept it recieve much....and are regenerated by God.

So you can't will yourself to be reborn, but you can accept someone's offer to be reborn? How does this make sense? You contradict yourself.

To accept an offer requires no power.
To be reborn, requires power.

I accepted God's offer.
He remade me.

This passage is shooting down Works-based redemption,  not grace.

It ties right in to Eph. 2:8-9

 

[prophet]

Mat 23:37
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Mat 15:28
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith:be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

This lady believed she could be made whole, but had no power to heal herself.  God healed her, or empowered her powerless will.
Her will didnt heal her.  Faith, granted by God, exercised by her will, was in turn empowered by God.

I can't will the lights on in my home.
I can choose to accept the empowered service of Coverland Electric.

 

[subllibrm]

The is no contradiction between whosoever will and chosen before the foundation of the world.

Glad I could help.

You are welcome.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Her will didnt heal her.  Faith, granted by God, exercised by her will, was in turn empowered by God.

I can't will the lights on in my home.
I can choose to accept the empowered service of Coverland Electric.

Unless you are Amish or have your own power source, you have no other choice but to use your power company

 

[prophet]

Her will didnt heal her.  Faith, granted by God, exercised by her will, was in turn empowered by God.

I can't will the lights on in my home.
I can choose to accept the empowered service of Coverland Electric.

Unless you are Amish or have your own power source, you have no other choice but to use your power company

Unless you have several choices, you have no choice....Wow, that's illuminating!

8)

 

[Recovering IFB]

IMO, all of Biblebummer's threads should be moved to either the Cal/Arm or Bible Versions forums where we can more easily ignore them.

I concur.  Otherwise, what is the use of having the other forums.  Some argue "Nobody reads those forums, so I posted it here, instead."  Well, gee, maybe no one is INTERESTED in those forums, except for a select few...

True.  And few people are interested in watching Biblebummer's foam at the mouth, no matter what the topic. 

He is searching on YouTube for more videos that will silence us once and for all.

The video with brother Andrian Rogers and the brief teaching he did, already silenced you all in terms of rebuttal. How do I know that? Because not one of you have refuted what he said. That's because you can't.

If you were paying attention, my rebuttal was immediately after that post, you are being dishonest. Adrian Rogers made no Biblical clams but rather his own opinions with nobody to challenge him.

 

[subllibrm]

IMO, all of Biblebummer's threads should be moved to either the Cal/Arm or Bible Versions forums where we can more easily ignore them.

I concur.  Otherwise, what is the use of having the other forums.  Some argue "Nobody reads those forums, so I posted it here, instead."  Well, gee, maybe no one is INTERESTED in those forums, except for a select few...

True.  And few people are interested in watching Biblebummer's foam at the mouth, no matter what the topic. 

He is searching on YouTube for more videos that will silence us once and for all.

The video with brother Andrian Rogers and the brief teaching he did, already silenced you all in terms of rebuttal. How do I know that? Because not one of you have refuted what he said. That's because you can't.

If you were paying attention, my rebuttal was immediately after that post, you are being dishonest. Adrian Rogers made no Biblical clams but rather his own opinions with nobody to challenge him.

I watched the video (I will admit that I do enjoy listening to his preaching) and you are correct. He made no real scriptural case. He noted that Satan "chose" to rebel and then stretched that into we all have the choice to repent. Well of course we do. No one ever said we didn't. If the offer isn't valid then God isn't just.

But that is not the question. The question is; outside of God working to change our heart, will we choose Him?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

IMO, all of Biblebummer's threads should be moved to either the Cal/Arm or Bible Versions forums where we can more easily ignore them.

I concur.  Otherwise, what is the use of having the other forums.  Some argue "Nobody reads those forums, so I posted it here, instead."  Well, gee, maybe no one is INTERESTED in those forums, except for a select few...

True.  And few people are interested in watching Biblebummer's foam at the mouth, no matter what the topic. 

He is searching on YouTube for more videos that will silence us once and for all.

The video with brother Andrian Rogers and the brief teaching he did, already silenced you all in terms of rebuttal. How do I know that? Because not one of you have refuted what he said. That's because you can't.

If you were paying attention, my rebuttal was immediately after that post, you are being dishonest. Adrian Rogers made no Biblical clams but rather his own opinions with nobody to challenge him.

I watched the video (I will admit that I do enjoy listening to his preaching) and you are correct. He made no real scriptural case. He noted that Satan "chose" to rebel and then stretched that into we all have the choice to repent. Well of course we do. No one ever said we didn't. If the offer isn't valid then God isn't just.

But that is not the question. The question is; outside of God working to change our heart, will we choose Him?

I read a book some years ago (I wish I could recall the author, but he was on par with R. C. Sproul or J. I. Packer) that made the case for God withdrawing enough of himself from satan to enable satan to fall of his own "free will".  In other words, it wasn't really as simple as free will.  It required action from God for satan to fall. 

 

[rsc2a]

IMO, all of Biblebummer's threads should be moved to either the Cal/Arm or Bible Versions forums where we can more easily ignore them.

I concur.  Otherwise, what is the use of having the other forums.  Some argue "Nobody reads those forums, so I posted it here, instead."  Well, gee, maybe no one is INTERESTED in those forums, except for a select few...

True.  And few people are interested in watching Biblebummer's foam at the mouth, no matter what the topic. 

He is searching on YouTube for more videos that will silence us once and for all.

The video with brother Andrian Rogers and the brief teaching he did, already silenced you all in terms of rebuttal. How do I know that? Because not one of you have refuted what he said. That's because you can't.

If you were paying attention, my rebuttal was immediately after that post, you are being dishonest. Adrian Rogers made no Biblical clams but rather his own opinions with nobody to challenge him.

I watched the video (I will admit that I do enjoy listening to his preaching) and you are correct. He made no real scriptural case. He noted that Satan "chose" to rebel and then stretched that into we all have the choice to repent. Well of course we do. No one ever said we didn't. If the offer isn't valid then God isn't just.

But that is not the question. The question is; outside of God working to change our heart, will we choose Him?

I read a book some years ago (I wish I could recall the author, but he was on par with R. C. Sproul or J. I. Packer) that made the case for God withdrawing enough of himself from satan to enable satan to fall of his own "free will".  In other words, it wasn't really as simple as free will.  It required action from God for satan to fall.

I would love to know that author.  Echoes of Augustine...

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

IMO, all of Biblebummer's threads should be moved to either the Cal/Arm or Bible Versions forums where we can more easily ignore them.

I concur.  Otherwise, what is the use of having the other forums.  Some argue "Nobody reads those forums, so I posted it here, instead."  Well, gee, maybe no one is INTERESTED in those forums, except for a select few...

True.  And few people are interested in watching Biblebummer's foam at the mouth, no matter what the topic. 

He is searching on YouTube for more videos that will silence us once and for all.

The video with brother Andrian Rogers and the brief teaching he did, already silenced you all in terms of rebuttal. How do I know that? Because not one of you have refuted what he said. That's because you can't.

If you were paying attention, my rebuttal was immediately after that post, you are being dishonest. Adrian Rogers made no Biblical clams but rather his own opinions with nobody to challenge him.

I watched the video (I will admit that I do enjoy listening to his preaching) and you are correct. He made no real scriptural case. He noted that Satan "chose" to rebel and then stretched that into we all have the choice to repent. Well of course we do. No one ever said we didn't. If the offer isn't valid then God isn't just.

But that is not the question. The question is; outside of God working to change our heart, will we choose Him?

I read a book some years ago (I wish I could recall the author, but he was on par with R. C. Sproul or J. I. Packer) that made the case for God withdrawing enough of himself from satan to enable satan to fall of his own "free will".  In other words, it wasn't really as simple as free will.  It required action from God for satan to fall.

I would love to know that author.  Echoes of Augustine...

I'm pretty sure I still have the book somewhere.  I'll dig through some boxes and try to find it.

 

[Ransom]

To accept an offer requires no power.
To be reborn, requires power.

Birth, however, requires someone else's power. No one chooses the time or circumstances of his birth. You make nonsense of the Bible.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Bb, you may already know this, but in order for a Calvinist to explain the verses you have shown they would have to completely brake away from Scripture, tell some sort of explanation/story and then return back to Scripture and say, see that is what John Calvin meant in his writings. 

Exactly!

And if they are not ignoring or overlooking a passage in the Bible, then they have to explain away clear Scriptures to try to make them say amd mean something else than what they actually say.

And of course,  they have to also explain away what John Calvin really believed and taught.  So your statement is definitely spot on.

Why don't you then, in your own words, tell us exactly what Calvin believed and taught. Have you ever read anything from Calvin other than what somebody told you about him? Have you read Institutes?
Please, enlighten us to the teachings of John Calvin.
I will not take you seriously or dismiss everything you post as garbage until you answer this.

 

[Biblebeliever]

Repentance is a matter of the heart.  Don't you understand that?

For one to repent, God must first change one's heart. 

Okay, now we've both stated our case.  The only difference is that I can back up mine with scripture.

For one to repent, they must come to the end of themselves. Repentance is a change of mind. And a change of heart.


A man has to choose to let go of his pride and self righteousness.

 

[Biblebeliever]

BB hasn't a clue about Calvinism.

I do know what Calvinism is about. It is a heretical teaching and its corrupt roots can be traced back to the Roman Catholic Augustine. And to no surpirse, Augustine was a heretic.

 

[Biblebeliever]

Alright, I'm already done reading this. Maybe the funny pages will be more intelligent.

Let me guess, another follower of Calvin?

 

[Biblebeliever]

This doesn't prove that people choose salvation. this is talking about repentance which has nothing to do with choosing God

Well, the people who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, God the Father grants those same people salvation.

 

[Biblebeliever]

John 1:9-14 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You see what I highlighted? this kills your argument, It is the work of God that brings people to salvation, not of our own works
you get it? i repeat," nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Of course it is the work of God that brings man to salvation. Salvation is in a person. It is the Lord Jesus Christ who saves those who call upon Him.

And when a man repents and places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, then God the Holy Ghost does the work of Regeneration in the heart of that person. Hence, God saves those who believe the Gospel.

 

[Biblebeliever]

BBYou are the one not answering the verses that we have presented. How do you account for
Romans  9:14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses:

I will show mercy
to whom I will show mercy,
and I will have compassion
on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh:

I raised you up for this reason
so that I may display My power in you
and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
18 So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden.

19 You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? 23 And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory— 24 on us, the ones He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As He also says in Hosea:

I will call Not My People, My People,
and she who is Unloved, Beloved.
26 And it will be in the place where they were told,
you are not My people,
there they will be called sons of the living God.


I am starting to think that you do not believe in God's sovereignty.

Well first of all, it is important to see what the Context of Romans 9 is. And when reading and studying the Context of the entire Chapter of Romans 9, any student of the Bible should be able to see that the Context is not about spiritual salvation of individuals in the Church Age. But rather, the Context is about God's Judgment concerning the Nation of Israel. As a matter of fact, it seems as though Paul here in Romans 9 is exonerating God Almighty's Judgment concerning Israel.

Just read how Romans 9 starts out. Paul is writing about his concern for his brethren, his kinsmen according to the FLESH.

Paul is clearly talking about National Israel (the Jews).

And therefore, Romans 9 is not talking about the Election of individuals unto salvation, but rather it is about the Election of Nations. God's Election and Choice of jacob over Esau has to do with Nations and their roles in the light of God's dealings and overall plan to fulfil His promise that He gave to Abraham.


Let us compare Scripture with Scripture:


Romans 9:9-13 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



Genesis 25:21-26 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

21 And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the Lord was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. 22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord. 23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. 26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau’s heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.


So again; we can see from the context of Romans 9 and from Comparing the O.T. Quotation in Rom. 9 to the O.T. passage in Genesis 25, that the subject of Election in Romans 9 is one concerning Nations and not individuals.