Regeneration

Twisted said:
FSSL said:
Actually, I have given quite a bit of consideration to an exaggerated dispensational division. I grew up in it, went to a college that taught it. I attended a seminary that is dispensational but kicked most of the strange divisions out of it.

I get the idea of a progressive revelation. Unfortunately, while I get accused of bringing NT concepts back into the OT, I am suggesting otherwise. Most dispensationalists don't understand that the concepts and promises of salvation were understood by the OT saint (including this remission of their sins). They also knew about the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit... which we may eventually get to.

I'm lost and unable to follow. It seems you argue one direction (no eternal remission of sins), then you quote Jeremiah which says, quite clearly, that the OT saint understood that he had the promise of remission of his sins.

But isn't Jeremiah 31 yet future?

Not for those of us in relationship with God through the New Covenant.

In view is the promise of the New Covenant, which, though not embraced by Israel as a nation yet (that will happen), has been embraced by many Jews and Gentiles alike.  Just because the Prophecy is directed to Israel in her divided state doesn't mean we discount the teaching of the New Testament that the New Covenant has been established:


2 Corinthians 3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


This is another example of the Covenant of Law being contrasted with the New Covenant.


God bless.


 
Our agreement is here: "Never read NT concepts back into the OT."

Our difference is that I see, in the OT, salvation concepts like "adoption," "redemption," "regeneration," "remission," "justification." However, the OT uses different words. I believe the synonyms and differences between Hebrew and Greek are causing you to be too narrow, semantically.

You DID argue "no eternal remission of sins."
 
FSSL said:
Our agreement is here: "Never read NT concepts back into the OT."

Our difference is that I see, in the OT, salvation concepts like "adoption," "redemption," "regeneration," "remission," "justification."

I agree, however, as I have maintained...it was all prophesied and remained as promise until it began to be bestowed.

Consider:

Romans 9
King James Version (KJV)

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;



A primary thrust of Romans 9-11 is Israel's state in regards to the bringing in of the New Covenant.

They are lost and in need of salvation:


Romans 11:22-27
King James Version (KJV)

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.



We have received the promises of God through relationship with Him through the New Covenant. Israel, as a Nation, will also receive the Promised Deliverer. This will occur in the Tribulation and "all Israel shall be saved" at that point because all unbelievers will perish, not only during the Tribulation, but those (unbelievers) who survive will perish at the Sheep and Goat Judgment described in Matthew 25.


Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.



We see in this statement the same things we have already been discussing: a point in time when Christ came to bestow the promises of God, a distinction between the Age of Law and the abrogation of the Law, redemption of those who were under Law (which applies to previous Ages as well), and the eternal indwelling of Christ, which is the Mystery not revealed to the world in past Ages.

Not even to the Saints.

That is when the promise of adoption began, FSSL. Just as John writes,,,


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



One can only be a child of God if they are born of God, which is the same concept seen in being born again, born from above, born of water and Spirit.

That is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost which the disciples received on the Day of Pentecost, when they were immersed into God.


1 John 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.




FSSL said:
However, the OT uses different words.

So show me these concepts in the Hebrew where it is not Promise and Prophecy in view. I have already asked for Biblical support.

The clearest promise of the New Birth is seen here...


Ezekiel 36:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



...and it is a promise. It is Prophecy of what is going to happen, just as Christ's teaching in John 14 and 16 are prophecy.

This is what Christ is speaking of here:


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



What, if not the promise of the Spirit, could we possibly think this is speaking about? What else could the Lord be referring to that He had taught them?

But thankfully He defines what He means in v.5.


FSSL said:
I believe the synonyms and differences between Hebrew and Greek are causing you to be too narrow, semantically.

Not at all, for I have not denied that the Gospel of Christ, the Promises of God, and the concepts concerning salvation in Christ were taught in the Hebrew Scriptures. All I am saying is that the revelation and understanding afforded us under New Covenant conditions not only explain what they meant, but contribute to them. For example, the Hebrew Scriptures taught the resurrection of the dead, but, they did not reveal the Mystery of the Gospel. They taught of Messiah, but they did not reveal that He would die for the sins of men and establish a spiritual Kingdom, rather than the physical Kingdom they longed for. Israel will get that Kingdom but not until they are born again.


FSSL said:

As I clarified in the last post, I have never argued "no eternal remission of sins," but "no eternal remission of sins in the lifetime of the Old Testament Saint. Again, that distinction is critical. They were redeemed retroactively when Christ died on the Cross to redeem the transgressions that were under the Law.

And I was taken to Post #26 which didn't mention remission of sins, are you sure that is the post you are thinking of?


God bless.
 
Your quote, in full: "I would suggest that the Old Testament Saint was Justified by grace through faith, and upon that basis his/her eternal destiny was as secure as ours. But, that does not mean they had received the promises of eternal remission of sins, Eternal Indwelling, or came into the presence of God at death.

Saved, yes, from an eternal perspective, but, still in need of...

...Eternal Redemption:"

I know that we are discussing the OT saint. I just believe that Scripture does not support your conclusions. The NT saint has the mysteries of salvation, more unveiled than the OT saint. They know that Jesus Christ of Bethlehem is their Savior.

My point is simply that the OT saint knew a whole lot more than you are willing to allow. I gave you Scripture about the idea that the OT saint enjoyed a remission of sin and knew that God would never hold it against him. Psalm 103 cannot be disputed. Yet, you hand-wave it.

Look at Joseph... how, in the world, would that young man endure and persevere in his faith if it were not for his knowledge of God's salvation? If it were not for a regenerating faith with Holy Spirit indwelling, there is no other answer as to how this young man survived. Were OT saints dependent on their own resources? Or, were they 100% regenerated saints who enjoyed a full knowledge of their own redemption and all of the benefits that come from that?
 
FSSL said:
Your quote, in full: "I would suggest that the Old Testament Saint was Justified by grace through faith, and upon that basis his/her eternal destiny was as secure as ours. But, that does not mean they had received the promises of eternal remission of sins, Eternal Indwelling, or came into the presence of God at death.

Saved, yes, from an eternal perspective, but, still in need of...

...Eternal Redemption:"

I know that we are discussing the OT saint. I just believe that Scripture does not support your conclusions.

What has been presented to you are not my conclusions, but basic Bible truths. Let's focus on Eternal Redemption, and I will simply start with one passage:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



A few things to consider:

1. Eternal Redemption is shown not to have been obtained through the sacrificial provision of the Old Testament (v.12);

2. The sacrificial provision is shown to be physical...only ( sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh, v.13);

3. The New Covenant was established through His blood (His Death) (v.15);

4. The transgressions of the Old Testament Saint (and in the context of the Book this primarily deals with those under the Covenant of Law as opposed to those under the New Covenant) were redeemed at the time of Christ's Sacrifice, and through His Sacrifice (v.15);

5. It His death that allows those who are called to receive the Promise of Eternal Inheritance.

And again, I would point out that a promise is just a promise (unfulfilled) until the promise is kept. And the Promises of God were kept through Christ.

As far as Eternal Indwelling you come into conflict with Christ's teaching in John 14 which makes it clear that it is a future time in which the disciples will be indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The distinction between the coming upon men in that day and the coming within is made clear enough that it is not open to debate:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.



We can say of the disciples they were not indwelt eternally (v.16, where Christ's presence which will soon end will be replaced (or filled might be a better way to put it) at the time Christ is teaching them.


Continued...

 
FSSL said:
The NT saint has the mysteries of salvation, more unveiled than the OT saint. They know that Jesus Christ of Bethlehem is their Savior.

How can something not revealed in past Ages, hidden wisdom...be "more unveiled?"

The disciples had revealed to them that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God...yet they were not only still without understanding of the Gospel of Christ...Peter shows he is hostile to the idea of Messiah dying:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



It does not nullify the fact they were men of faith, but...we have to distinguish that their faith was maintained within the framework of the revelation provided to them at this point.

John explains why not only did they not understand the Gospel, but were unbelieving in His Resurrection:


John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


This is not something we can debate about, FSSL, Scripture makes it clear that the Gospel of Christ was unveiled by the Spirit in this Age. The disciples were men of faith within the framework of the revelation provided them, but, it would not be until they were reconciled to God through Christ's Sacrifice, Eternally indwelt by God, that they would sons of God, born of God, and would then go out to preach the Gospel of Christ, not the Gospel of the Kingdom.


Continued...
 
FSSL said:
My point is simply that the OT saint knew a whole lot more than you are willing to allow.

They knew exactly what God allowed them to know. I have shown that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery not revealed to the Saints in Ages past, and asked, if you think they did understand the Gospel as it has been revealed to us to first show this in the Old Testament, and secondly address the points raised which show explicit teaching that this was not the case.


FSSL said:
I gave you Scripture about the idea that the OT saint enjoyed a remission of sin and knew that God would never hold it against him. Psalm 103 cannot be disputed.

They did enjoy remission of sin, but...it was not eternal.

That is why they had to keep offering up the physical provision, vicarious animal death...continually:

Hebrews 10
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



Basic truth: the (Covenant of) Law could never cause the need for sacrifice to cease. That is the simple question asked by both the Writer and the Author in v.2.

"Perfection" speaks of completion, a "bringing to an end," and it is specific to Remission of sins. The could not do, and did not do, what Christ accomplished through His Sacrifice:


Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



Not only doe we see that the sacrificial provision of the Old Testament Economies had to be continually repeated for remission of sins, we see that the Sacrifice of Christ has, forever (eternally)...

...brought to an end the necessity for further sacrifice (v.14).

Can I ask you, have you ever really given consideration to the full import of v.14?

Eternal Remission of sins was a Promise...


Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


...that was fulfilled through Christ...


Hebrews 8:10-13
King James Version (KJV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.



He goes on to make this clearer...


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.



Just consider the last statement of v.18: the remission in view is the remission that was promised, and only that Remission can be said to be Eternal Remission. If there was continual offering for sin within the framework of the Old Testament Sacrificial Provision, then we cannot conclude those who offered them up received the Promise.


Continued...

 
FSSL said:
I gave you Scripture about the idea that the OT saint enjoyed a remission of sin and knew that God would never hold it against him. Psalm 103 cannot be disputed.

Yet, you hand-wave it.

Well, I guess I can see how detailed responses would be considered "hand waving" to some...

;)

As far as Psalm 103 goes, exactly what in there do you think suggests Eternal Indwelling, Eternal Remission of sins, or Regeneration?

It is clearly within the framework of the Covenant of Law:


Psalm 103:17-18
King James Version (KJV)

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.



The question is...who kept His Covenant?


Hebrews 8:7-10
King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:



We simply cannot equate the Covenant of Law with the New Covenant and the receiving of the Promises of God:


Galatians 3:17-22
King James Version (KJV)

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.



A few things to consider:

1. The Law did not contain the Promise/s, and it did not disannul the Promise/s;

2. The Inheritance is promised by God, and stands separate from man's sin.transgressions (even Abraham's);

3. The Law was only meant to be temporary;

4. The Law would lose relevance when Christ came;

5. The Promise of inheritance is seen as fulfilled in Christ, when He came;

6. The Law did not bestow Life;

7. The Law did not result in righteousness;

8. The promise of inheritance is obtained through faith in Christ...alone.


Now see this passage again:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



There is no conceivable way to impose this into Psalm 103.


Continued...

 
FSSL said:
Look at Joseph... how, in the world, would that young man endure and persevere in his faith if it were not for his knowledge of God's salvation? If it were not for a regenerating faith with Holy Spirit indwelling, there is no other answer as to how this young man survived.

We do not negate the ministry of the Spirit in the lives of men, but, as I have said, we cannot, must not...equate that to something Christ Himself taught as something that would take place after He returned to Heaven.


FSSL said:
Were OT saints dependent on their own resources?

Sometimes:

Ezekiel 18:30-32
King James Version (KJV)

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


Again, contrast that with the Promise:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


And if we really want to dig in deep, we could consider Paul's teaching in Romans 1-2, where we see God has provided man with three forms of revelation by which they will be held accountable: the internal witness of God (which speaks of God ministering upon/within a man's heart, and is typical of all Ages), the testimony of Creation, and direct revelation, such as God speaking directly to men, speaking to men through men, or speaking to men through His Word.

If we follow that out and balance it with one simple basic truth we see in Scripture, that is, God will judge every man, regardless of the Age he lived in, according to his response to the revelation provided them.

Here we see that in regards to Gentiles who do not have the Law or the Word of God:


Romans 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.



In the case of Joseph, we can allow for direct intervention on God's part, though we still have no basis to negate Christ and the Apostles' teachings and view him as regenerate.

I am perplexed, really, at how many Independent Fundamental Baptists do not consider the distinction between the Holy Ghost coming upon someone (Old Testament) and coming within someone on an eternal basis. This was a basic teaching in every IFB I have ever been a member of, so it surprises me to see IFBs failing to make that distinction on the Forums.

Continued...
 
FSSL said:
Or, were they 100% regenerated saints who enjoyed a full knowledge of their own redemption and all of the benefits that come from that?

All we need is to see it in the Hebrew Scriptures.

That's all I ask for.


God bless.
 
Why write so much?

Here is a simple answer: "God's promises are real and factual."

We, NT believers are also promised a future salvation. It doesn't make it any less.

Like NT believers, the future promises given to the OT believer actualized into their present lives through perseverance, justification, remission of sins, assurance, indwelling and pretty much all of the same benefits we have.

Disobedient Israelites were unbelieving, yet religious ones.

IFBs, historically, have erred on an extreme version of NT onlyism. Very few ventured into the OT as it was/is viewed as having less practicality for the NT believer.

Unfortunately this mindset has given the IFB the idea that the OT believer lacked real and practical benefits of salvation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
FSSL said:
Why write so much?

Because if I don't, someone, somewhere, is going to accuse me of hand waving.

;)

Secondly, I am always in hopes that someone is going to want to actually discuss the issue in detail. There is enough in this thread already to make the case for the position I take, and the evidence of basic truths that most do not consider are given for those who may take interest.

It will help us to understand the magnitude of what Christ has accomplished.


FSSL said:
Here is a simple answer: "God's promises are real and factual."

Here is another: a promise is not realized until fulfilled.

If we try to say that the Old Testament Saints received the promises, even when Scripture makes it clear they did not, then we create conflict in Scripture:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Promise and Perfection, FSSL, just two things I ask you to give some consideration to.


FSSL said:
We, NT believers are also promised a future salvation. It doesn't make it any less.

We are promised "salvation" from the presence of sin. That is...we will receive glorified bodies and dwell eternally in the Eternal State.

We do not confuse that with the fact we have received salvation in Christ:


Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


The "salvation" we will enjoy in the future is not identical to the difference between the salvation we enjoy and the less progressed salvation of the Old Testament Saint, who remained unregenerate through their lives and were made perfect at the time of the Cross. Those are the "just spirits of men made perfect" who are now in Heaven.

So there is a difference in not being Eternally Indwelt, Eternally Redeemed, Eternally Forgiven. When we receive our glorified bodies nothing in regards to salvation from the penalty of sin will change, just the salvation from the presence of sin.


Continued...
 
FSSL said:
Like NT believers, the future promises given to the OT believer actualized into their present lives through perseverance, justification, remission of sins, assurance, indwelling and pretty much all of the same benefits we have.

So you equate, for example, the sacrifice of animals...to the SAcrifice of Christ?

I know you do not, but, that is the conclusion when you say the Old Testament Saint "had the future promise of remission of sins."

And I have shown you several passages that make it clear...they did not. Are you reading any of the posts? Again, the Law could not make perfect/complete (in regards to remission of sins), but Christ has through His Sacrifice made perfect/complete them that are sanctified (by the Blood of Christ).


FSSL said:
Disobedient Israelites were unbelieving, yet religious ones.

Even believing Israelites were disobedient, FSSL. ITs just a basic truth of the Covenant of Law that no-one could actually keep the Law that they might gain life and righteousness.

Moses did not enter into God's Rest (Canaan) either.


FSSL said:
IFBs, historically, have erred on an extreme version of NT onlyism. Very few ventured into the OT as it was/is viewed as having less practicality for the NT believer.

Does not speak of any IFB I have ever been a member of. Though I should clarify that these were actually Independent Baptist Fellowships, lol.

But I will say that many people merge and blend the Covenants to the point where they seek to apply principles of ancient cultures into our daily conversation today. Many try to "keep the Law" so to speak.


FSSL said:
Unfortunately this mindset has given the IFB the idea that the OT believer lacked real and practical benefits of salvation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I haven't done that. As I said early on, the Old Testament Saint was "saved" in the sense that their eternal destiny was sealed during their lifetimes, through faith in God according to the revelation provided them. However, that does not mean we can equally say that Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, or any other Saint you care to mention was trusting in Christ for their redemption from their condition. The condition of being separated from God.

Not even the disciples understood that. And they sat under Christ's teachings for three years.

The reason is because God did not reveal this Mystery to men...and Scripture makes that clear. I have given numerous passages which cannot be debated, it is what it is.

I guess, FSSL, we have reached a standstill in this discussion, because it is not going to progress unless you address the positive points as to why we would view men as unregenerate prior to Pentecost, when men began to be Eternally Indwelt by God. Our immersion into God is the reason why we are new creatures, have a new heart, and have a new spirit. Rather than aggravate you, I will leave you to simply consider some of the things brought forth, and I know it seems like a lot. But if you will, I guarantee you will not regret it.


God bless.
 
S.T.Ranger said:
So you equate, for example, the sacrifice of animals...to the SAcrifice of Christ?

I know you do not, but, that is the conclusion when you say the Old Testament Saint "had the future promise of remission of sins."

And I have shown you several passages that make it clear...they did not. Are you reading any of the posts? Again, the Law could not make perfect/complete (in regards to remission of sins), but Christ has through His Sacrifice made perfect/complete them that are sanctified (by the Blood of Christ).

Right... the Law could not make perfect/complete. That does not mean that an OT was imperfectly or incompletely regenerated. Either he was 100% regenerated through faith in God as Messiah or he was able to contribute to his regeneration.

I haven't done that. As I said early on, the Old Testament Saint was "saved" in the sense that their eternal destiny was sealed during their lifetimes, through faith in God according to the revelation provided them. However, that does not mean we can equally say that Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, or any other Saint you care to mention was trusting in Christ for their redemption from their condition. The condition of being separated from God.

I never said that they were trusting in Christ. They trusted in their Redeemer, God. (Job 19.25)

I guess, FSSL, we have reached a standstill in this discussion, because it is not going to progress unless you address the positive points as to why we would view men as unregenerate prior to Pentecost, when men began to be Eternally Indwelt by God. Our immersion into God is the reason why we are new creatures, have a new heart, and have a new spirit. Rather than aggravate you, I will leave you to simply consider some of the things brought forth, and I know it seems like a lot. But if you will, I guarantee you will not regret it.

I have been exposed to this teaching all my life, until my final years of Seminary. The conflict is simple. You think I am bringing a common (pedestrian-style) Covenant Theology into this discussion. I am not a Covenant Theologian and do not use phrasing like "looking forward to the Cross."

I simply believe that OT believers were believers, in the full sense of the term.

I tried to follow your lengthy posts but got lost in the length and many verses you dropped in. I found many instances where your passages had no relevance to the discussion and in some cases did not even make your case. I am sorry.
 
FSSL said:
S.T.Ranger said:
So you equate, for example, the sacrifice of animals...to the Sacrifice of Christ?

I know you do not, but, that is the conclusion when you say the Old Testament Saint "had the future promise of remission of sins."

And I have shown you several passages that make it clear...they did not. Are you reading any of the posts? Again, the Law could not make perfect/complete (in regards to remission of sins), but Christ has through His Sacrifice made perfect/complete them that are sanctified (by the Blood of Christ).

Right... the Law could not make perfect/complete. That does not mean that an OT was imperfectly or incompletely regenerated.

So we can have people that are born again apart from being reconciled to God (brought into relationship with Him in Eternal Union), Eternally Redeemed, and Eternally Forgiven?

Then I guess we must have two classes of Christians, right?


Continued...

 
FSSL said:
Either he was 100% regenerated through faith in God as Messiah or he was able to contribute to his regeneration.

So what do we do with those who lived prior to Prophecy concerning Messiah?

Did Adam and Eve understand that God was speaking about Jesus Christ? Did they understand that Christ would die for their sins?

We can see the Gospel of Christ in the Age/s before the Age of Law, but do you seriously think they did?


Continued...
 
FSSL said:
I haven't done that. As I said early on, the Old Testament Saint was "saved" in the sense that their eternal destiny was sealed during their lifetimes, through faith in God according to the revelation provided them. However, that does not mean we can equally say that Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, or any other Saint you care to mention was trusting in Christ for their redemption from their condition. The condition of being separated from God.

I never said that they were trusting in Christ. They trusted in their Redeemer, God. (Job 19.25)

This is true, however, can I suggest to you that in this Age a general faith in God is not enough?

Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.


The Writer is not, as many suppose, teaching Christians to "grow up," or, mature. What he is doing is teaching the same theme of Perfection that flows through the entire Book. While men could be justified by faith in God in previous Ages, all that a general faith in God will get us today is rebuke, just as he rebukes his Hebrew Brethren in Ch.5.

The same thing is true here:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



The Exhortation and warning is not for Christians to be better Christians, it is for Jews not to remain under Law.

And this has been discussed before.


Continued...
 
FSSL said:
I guess, FSSL, we have reached a standstill in this discussion, because it is not going to progress unless you address the positive points as to why we would view men as unregenerate prior to Pentecost, when men began to be Eternally Indwelt by God. Our immersion into God is the reason why we are new creatures, have a new heart, and have a new spirit. Rather than aggravate you, I will leave you to simply consider some of the things brought forth, and I know it seems like a lot. But if you will, I guarantee you will not regret it.

I have been exposed to this teaching all my life, until my final years of Seminary. The conflict is simple. You think I am bringing a common (pedestrian-style) Covenant Theology into this discussion. I am not a Covenant Theologian and do not use phrasing like "looking forward to the Cross."

FSSL, can I just ask, can men be born again without Christ?

Do we nullify the simple truth that men simply did not receive the promises prior to Christ?

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection which occurs when men receive the Life Christ came to bring:


John 6:51-53
King James Version (KJV)

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Who was trusting in Christ prior to Christ dying on the Cross? No-one. Not even the disciples.


Continued...

 
FSSL said:
I simply believe that OT believers were believers, in the full sense of the term.

And I have stated numerous times I take the same view, that they were believers, and justified by grace through faith.

That still doesn't mean we nullify many teachings that clarify God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Not before. That was when men received the power to become the sons of God. And we do not create a "regeneration" that lacks the Life that Christ came to bring.


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FSSL said:
I tried to follow your lengthy posts but got lost in the length and many verses you dropped in.

I doubt any of them would take more than a couple minutes to read, and if that is more than you are willing to invest in the discussion, okay, I am used to that. And since nobody else seems interested in the discussion it looks as though it is time to seek out a new Forum.


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