Some who don't Pastor, or once Pastored....

[ALAYMAN]

Yet again, I say...IF it's so easy, if it's just a gravy train....gather a few people around the table and begin a church. In a few years, let us know how the gravy train has worked out for you.

Wow! talk about obsession, your starting to sound like a broken record.

lol, have you even read a small fraction of TRT's posts?  A conversation about the atonement of Christ will be turned into a rant about the one-man show of today, or how the church is wrongly structured.  Definitely a stuck needle on vinyl.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Yet again, I say...IF it's so easy, if it's just a gravy train....gather a few people around the table and begin a church. In a few years, let us know how the gravy train has worked out for you.

Wow! talk about obsession, your starting to sound like a broken record.

I'M starting to sound like a broken record?
Mater is the one trick pony in this act.
Constant bashing and re-hashing IFB atrocities are posted daily here.

I offer a logical response to 'Pastoring is a gravy train for those who don't have real jobs', and I'm a broken record. IF it's a gravy train for those who abhor work, YOU go start a church in your basement and let us know how it works out for you. You, r2 and Mater could be the elders and go from there....

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I offer a logical response to 'Pastoring is a gravy train for those who don't have real jobs', and I'm a broken record. IF it's a gravy train for those who abhor work, YOU go start a church in your basement and let us know how it works out for you. You, r2 and Mater could be the elders and go from there....[/quote]

"Pastoring" can be a gravy train for those who don't want to work. I know some folks who really pastor who work very, very hard. I also know a very large number of "pastors" who are extremely lazy and ride that gravy train for all its worth. The balance of folks I know definitely fall towards the gravy train.

As far as having church in my basement, it's at my kitchen table and we are doing it. It's working out fine, but that's for your concern. As far as it being a gravy train, every one of us hold "non-ministry" jobs and contribute to the group in order for it to function. It's honestly not that difficult. If someone has a need, they make a phone call and we do what we can to meet it. No special designee required1. Just a matter of all members of the body doing what they can to make sure the other members are well.

1 FTR: I, for one, and not opposed to someone within the assembly being financially supported by that assembly in order to minister to the others. I do have a really big problem with that someone thinking they are somehow a snowflake in the assembly, not quite like the little people, either in responsibility or in authority.

 

[Recovering IFB]

I never said pastoring was easy, my old IFB pastor wasn't just my pastor, he was one of my closest freinds. We were freinds  for years before I joined his church. I saw his life up close, the hospital visits, the counseling, visiting jails, time away from family. I saw them all.
The real fact is that as imperfect people we all have our hobby horses that we like to beat, mine is liberty,  But I think the fact that God has gifted people to lead they shouldn't be looking for preferential treatment either, we all have hard jobs, you pastor, Chris is a chemist, I drive a tractor trailer, all hard jobs in there own way

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

YOU go start a church in your basement and let us know how it works out for you.

You keep saying this, as if you have some magical idea of what success looks like.  I don't even know what success looks like. 

How about every one edified, and growing in Christ?  No, that's impossible in your church model, since 15-60% aren't even believers, which poisons the purpose of the assembly of the saints.  And (in my experience only, of course), the vast majority of the believers who have been "going to church" and even "going to Sunday school" for a decade or more still don't have a clue what the Bible really says.  That's what success doesn't look like.  You can plant 100 churches like that, and most of what you've done is spread a cancer on the body of Christ. 

Like I said elsewhere, you want to know what your church model is worth?  Listen to what the "going to church" people talk about after the service is over.  Of course, you can't be the pastor and do that.  You'd have to go undercover. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

YOU go start a church in your basement and let us know how it works out for you.

You keep saying this, as if you have some magical idea of what success looks like.  I don't even know what success looks like. 

How about every one edified, and growing in Christ?  No, that's impossible in your church model, since 15-60% aren't even believers, which poisons the purpose of the assembly of the saints.  And (in my experience only, of course), the vast majority of the believers who have been "going to church" and even "going to Sunday school" for a decade or more still don't have a clue what the Bible really says.  That's what success doesn't look like.  You can plant 100 churches like that, and most of what you've done is spread a cancer on the body of Christ. 

Like I said elsewhere, you want to know what your church model is worth?  Listen to what the "going to church" people talk about after the service is over.  Of course, you can't be the pastor and do that.  You'd have to go undercover.

No, I have NEVER said I had any formula, magic or otherwise.
My church model isn't the point....your pulling these mythical examples out of thin air, or other places isn't the point.

IF it's a gravy train.
IF it's a job, not a calling.
Start one and in a few years...few months, see how it works out for you.

But to sit around your kitchen table and criticize, make accusations based on made up illustrations/generalizations illustrates "Those who can, DO. Those who can't criticize those who can, and do". 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

r2:
"Pastoring" can be a gravy train for those who don't want to work. I know some folks who really pastor who work very, very hard. I also know a very large number of "pastors" who are extremely lazy and ride that gravy train for all its worth. The balance of folks I know definitely fall towards the gravy train.

I knew a man once who had a five legged cow.

 

[bruinboy]

While I respect the pastors who work hard, and I believe that includes about 50%, based on nothing but my personal experience, I am not sure I buy into the "those who can do" argument, regardless of my respect for Dr. Falwell.  He was the hardest working Pastor I have ever seen. I know Tarheel is as well. 
But we can also use the argument the other way.  I am sure that Tarheel could not do the job I have done for many years.  And I could say, "those who can do".  In reality we all have gifts that are specific to us alone. In addition, I do believe that being a good pastor does require a holy calling.  Without it, one can only fake it so long, ie. pastor marty, dr. saaaaap, The Real Novice, etc. 
True story, I know of one pastor who named his boat "Visitation", so when someone called looking for him, the secretary would always say, "he is out on Visitation." Unfortunately, there are waaaaaay too many of those, gives the good, hard working, pastors a bad name.   

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

While I respect the pastors who work hard, and I believe that includes about 50%, based on nothing but my personal experience, I am not sure I buy into the "those who can do" argument, regardless of my respect for Dr. Falwell.  He was the hardest working Pastor I have ever seen. I know Tarheel is as well. 
But we can also use the argument the other way.  I am sure that Tarheel could not do the job I have done for many years.  And I could say, "those who can do".  In reality we all have gifts that are specific to us alone. In addition, I do believe that being a good pastor does require a holy calling.  Without it, one can only fake it so long, ie. pastor marty, dr. saaaaap, The Real Novice, etc. 
True story, I know of one pastor who named his boat "Visitation", so when someone called looking for him, the secretary would always say, "he is out on Visitation." Unfortunately, there are waaaaaay too many of those, gives the good, hard working, pastors a bad name. 

Jerry didn't narrow that statement to Pastors.
I'm relatively sure I'd be a failure at what you do...or mater does, for that matter.
But, I haven't defamed, mocked or belittled the job either of you do, and never would.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

While I respect the pastors who work hard, and I believe that includes about 50%, based on nothing but my personal experience, I am not sure I buy into the "those who can do" argument, regardless of my respect for Dr. Falwell.  He was the hardest working Pastor I have ever seen. I know Tarheel is as well. 
But we can also use the argument the other way.  I am sure that Tarheel could not do the job I have done for many years.  And I could say, "those who can do".  In reality we all have gifts that are specific to us alone. In addition, I do believe that being a good pastor does require a holy calling.  Without it, one can only fake it so long, ie. pastor marty, dr. saaaaap, The Real Novice, etc. 
True story, I know of one pastor who named his boat "Visitation", so when someone called looking for him, the secretary would always say, "he is out on Visitation." Unfortunately, there are waaaaaay too many of those, gives the good, hard working, pastors a bad name. 

Jerry didn't narrow that statement to Pastors.
I'm relatively sure I'd be a failure at what you do...or mater does, for that matter.
But, I haven't defamed, mocked or belittled the job either of you do, and never would.

No, you're too busy mocking the New Testament model for the assembling of believers.  And since there's no job involved with that, there's no associated job you can mock. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

While I respect the pastors who work hard, and I believe that includes about 50%, based on nothing but my personal experience, I am not sure I buy into the "those who can do" argument, regardless of my respect for Dr. Falwell.  He was the hardest working Pastor I have ever seen. I know Tarheel is as well. 
But we can also use the argument the other way.  I am sure that Tarheel could not do the job I have done for many years.  And I could say, "those who can do".  In reality we all have gifts that are specific to us alone. In addition, I do believe that being a good pastor does require a holy calling.  Without it, one can only fake it so long, ie. pastor marty, dr. saaaaap, The Real Novice, etc. 
True story, I know of one pastor who named his boat "Visitation", so when someone called looking for him, the secretary would always say, "he is out on Visitation." Unfortunately, there are waaaaaay too many of those, gives the good, hard working, pastors a bad name. 

Jerry didn't narrow that statement to Pastors.
I'm relatively sure I'd be a failure at what you do...or mater does, for that matter.
But, I haven't defamed, mocked or belittled the job either of you do, and never would.

No, you're too busy mocking the New Testament model for the assembling of believers.  And since there's no job involved with that, there's no associated job you can mock.

^^^^ See what I mean? 

 

[bruinboy]

While I respect the pastors who work hard, and I believe that includes about 50%, based on nothing but my personal experience, I am not sure I buy into the "those who can do" argument, regardless of my respect for Dr. Falwell.  He was the hardest working Pastor I have ever seen. I know Tarheel is as well. 
But we can also use the argument the other way.  I am sure that Tarheel could not do the job I have done for many years.  And I could say, "those who can do".  In reality we all have gifts that are specific to us alone. In addition, I do believe that being a good pastor does require a holy calling.  Without it, one can only fake it so long, ie. pastor marty, dr. saaaaap, The Real Novice, etc. 
True story, I know of one pastor who named his boat "Visitation", so when someone called looking for him, the secretary would always say, "he is out on Visitation." Unfortunately, there are waaaaaay too many of those, gives the good, hard working, pastors a bad name. 

Jerry didn't narrow that statement to Pastors.
I'm relatively sure I'd be a failure at what you do...or mater does, for that matter.
But, I haven't defamed, mocked or belittled the job either of you do, and never would.

To be clear and only speaking for myself, I don't belittle the job that you , or any other pastor does. I respect the office for what it is.  What is bothersome, is to see some of these guys who act like they work so hard and do very little in actually.  Then they say to others, "well if it is so easy, let's see you do it".  I know you are not one who does that, but many do.  Many more than in the secular/business world.  You don't last very long in the business world if you don't work hard, especially now days. I think I understand the pressures of being in the ministry, pretty well.  I can say, they pale compared to those in a senior position the business world.  Personally, I hear very few people in the business world talk about how hard they work, it is expected and frankly a given. I have often heard pastors talk about how hard they work and many do, but many don't too. Hate to say it, but missionaries are much worse.  I know more than a few missionaries and 80-90% are on holidays.
Not sure if explained myself very well, but in reality I have the utmost respect for those who do their job, regardless of position. However, it is troubling to hear those to talk, better than they work.  I once had a boss who used to say, "I don't want to hear about the pain, just deliver the baby". God bless you all.     

 

[subllibrm]

Why don't y'all just pull your church models out of your pants and put em on the table to measure like real men.  :

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Those who can't just change their model to fit their 'gifts'.....

 

[Bruh]

While I respect the pastors who work hard, and I believe that includes about 50%, based on nothing but my personal experience, I am not sure I buy into the "those who can do" argument, regardless of my respect for Dr. Falwell.  He was the hardest working Pastor I have ever seen. I know Tarheel is as well. 
But we can also use the argument the other way.  I am sure that Tarheel could not do the job I have done for many years.  And I could say, "those who can do".  In reality we all have gifts that are specific to us alone. In addition, I do believe that being a good pastor does require a holy calling.  Without it, one can only fake it so long, ie. pastor marty, dr. saaaaap, The Real Novice, etc. 
True story, I know of one pastor who named his boat "Visitation", so when someone called looking for him, the secretary would always say, "he is out on Visitation." Unfortunately, there are waaaaaay too many of those, gives the good, hard working, pastors a bad name. 

Jerry didn't narrow that statement to Pastors.
I'm relatively sure I'd be a failure at what you do...or mater does, for that matter.
But, I haven't defamed, mocked or belittled the job either of you do, and never would.

To be clear and only speaking for myself, I don't belittle the job that you , or any other pastor does. I respect the office for what it is.  What is bothersome, is to see some of these guys who act like they work so hard and do very little in actually.  Then they say to others, "well if it is so easy, let's see you do it".  I know you are not one who does that, but many do.  Many more than in the secular/business world.  You don't last very long in the business world if you don't work hard, especially now days. I think I understand the pressures of being in the ministry, pretty well.  I can say, they pale compared to those in a senior position the business world.  Personally, I hear very few people in the business world talk about how hard they work, it is expected and frankly a given. I have often heard pastors talk about how hard they work and many do, but many don't too. Hate to say it, but missionaries are much worse.  I know more than a few missionaries and 80-90% are on holidays.
Not sure if explained myself very well, but in reality I have the utmost respect for those who do their job, regardless of position. However, it is troubling to hear those to talk, better than they work.  I once had a boss who used to say, "I don't want to hear about the pain, just deliver the baby". God bless you all.   

Speaking only for the Secular aspect. 

We have to do this rubbing shoulders with reprobates and do our best to keep a good testimony for Christ.  Then go home after rubbing shoulders with these reprobates.  I have often wondered how many Pastors could rub shoulders with the world everyday 8 to 16 hours a day and still have the walk they have?

I believe "SOME" Pastors forget what it is to rub shoulders with the world everyday.     

 

[Frag]

Been there, done that, bought a tee shirt.

God bless those that do and God bless those of us that did.

Yep.

Two most miserable people in the world -- a man who should be pastoring but isn't and the man who shouldn't be pastoring who is! 

Good to see you are alive and kicking, Billy....

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Been there, done that, bought a tee shirt.

God bless those that do and God bless those of us that did.

Two most miserable people in the world -- a man who should be pastoring but isn't and the man who shouldn't be pastoring who is! 

Huh?  You, IP and TB don't seem miserable to me.