Standards of dress

[Mathew Ward]

What I say will not change or solidify the way you believe.  It all depends on ones definition of modest.  If modest means "the flesh covered up" than a woman can be modest in pants.  If modest means "covered up and not shape conforming" than baggy pants would be modest and tight pants would not.  If modest means "gender specific" than pants would not.

So by your definition can a woman be modest in pants?

It's either yes or no.  Or do you believe it is not a yes or no answer?

I just answered your question in detail in my last post.  How much plainer can I get?

From my reading it seems you have answered like a politician. You have answered about what others believe.

But to summarize your position if a women believes either way for or against pants or some hybrid of the two then you give her the liberty to practice her belief.

However where exactly do you fall on the issue?

Would you be a typical HACker that preaches Deuteronomy 22:5 as pants? Or have you become less performance based and believe it's a okay for wimin folks to wear pants?

 

[cast.sheep]

Raider is my friend and I respect him.

However....it is frustrating that a couple phrases were taken from my post and addressed as if the rest of my post did not exist. Was the spirit of my post completely ignored? Yes, I believe it was. I was really trying to have an open discussion about this subject. No judging. No condemnation either way. Just raw honesty. And what was addressed?  The last sentence and a phrase here and there that had little to nothing to do with the subject. Thanks for the respect.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Raider is my friend and I respect him.

However....it is frustrating that a couple phrases were taken from my post and addressed as if the rest of my post did not exist. Was the spirit of my post completely ignored? Yes, I believe it was. I was really trying to have an open discussion about this subject. No judging. No condemnation either way. Just raw honesty. And what was addressed?  The last sentence and a phrase here and there that had little to nothing to do with the subject. Thanks for the respect.

I enjoyed the spirit of your post.

 

[SwampHag]

At the end of the day, I *KNOW* the dresses and skirts and culottes I wear are modest, I don't have to wonder so, yeah, I will just stick with that.

Perhaps is there is a question in ones mind as to whether ones clothing is modest, they should avoid it?

Just my thoughts...

 

[cast.sheep]

At the end of the day, I *KNOW* the dresses and skirts and culottes I wear are modest, I don't have to wonder so, yeah, I will just stick with that.

Perhaps is there is a question in ones mind as to whether ones clothing is modest, they should avoid it?

Just my thoughts...

I couldn't agree with you more! I feel exactly the same way about my wardrobe.

 

[cast.sheep]

This thread has revealed a lot about us.  It's been very educational about why we are losing so many of our young people. There is no real discussion about a controversial subject. I think it started out well-intentioned, but all it is doing is creating more divisiveness. And not just from one side. Young people today want understanding of our beliefs. Actually, old people want that too. When they ask questions and express their own thought pattern...and what they get in return is diversion, sarcasm, belittling, and no real listening or conversation, they turn away.

We learned very well from our alma mater!

Carry on!

 

[SwampHag]

I am not trying to be divisive.  I am trying to show you ladies that wear pants that you are just as judgmental about *my* clothing choices.  I am not a Pharisee by any means in this area.  Anyone who has been on these forums with me for the past 10+ years will tell you, I don't give a rip what you wear if it is clean and covers you.  But time after time, I have been called some pretty nasty names and been told that my beautiful daughters look 'ugly' in their dresses and culottes....to the point where I won't *ever* post their photo here again and I am very selective who I add on facebook.
So don't call *me* divisive.

 

[SwampHag]

...and also, as for losing our young people...as of now <praise be to God. all 5 of my precious children love the Lord, love their church and my married children are rearing their kids to love the Lord as well, so all is NOT lost.
Thanks be to God for that.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

At the end of the day, I *KNOW* the dresses and skirts and culottes I wear are modest, I don't have to wonder so, yeah, I will just stick with that.

And that is great. You are wearing what you deem most appropriate so I have no qualms with that. I certainly would not consider it to be a legalistic tendency but rather a preference on your part.

Perhaps is there is a question in ones mind as to whether ones clothing is modest, they should avoid it?

Just my thoughts...

And how the term 'modesty' is applied is relative to each individual, which is kinda the argument I have made earlier in the thread. RAIDER applies 'modesty' considering certain attire at all times whereas I apply 'modesty' as not dressing appropriately for the occasion. Each person has their own perspective and though I might disagree with another (either on the overly-covered or more uncovered), the issue is each person with God so I can't answer for anyone else on either side of the argument.


That thought led to this generic thought, not in response to SwampHag...



If I am understanding the cyber feeling here, it seems like that those of us who have a looser sense of the application of modesty are being judged by those who are more strict. And I also get the feeling that those who are more strict are feeling judged by those of us who tend to be less restrictive. I am sorry if I have come across this thread as being angry or judgmental toward others who do not see the issue of modesty as I see it. I'm guessing each of us has a personal walk with Christ and I believe the spiritual paths we walk with Him will not be identical with one another. God knows my heart that I don't want to judge others and though I don't think I meant to, perhaps it came through in some of my posts on this thread. I hereby apologize where I have crossed a line and perhaps hurt someone else and apologize for those who may have felt judgment from me.

 

[SwampHag]

Smellin', I really think that THIS is where we are failing our young people.  We think that *WE* as adults are the Holy Spirit and COMMAND them to accept and take as their own *OUR* standards instead of teaching them the Bible and allowing God to work in their lives. 
We need to let go of the reins.  My daughters and I have some great discussions about modesty.  Scriptural ones.  And yes, while they live here we do expect them to wear what we wear, but neither will I judge them or feel as if I failed if they wear pants when they leave.  I will feel as if I failed if they turn their backs on God.....which I hope and pray never happens.
"Train up a child..."  To me that means teach them the Bible and let the Holy Spirit do His work without my help. 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Smellin', I really think that THIS is where we are failing our young people.  We think that *WE* as adults are the Holy Spirit and COMMAND them to accept and take as their own *OUR* standards instead of teaching them the Bible and allowing God to work in their lives. 
We need to let go of the reins.  My daughters and I have some great discussions about modesty.  Scriptural ones.  And yes, while they live here we do expect them to wear what we wear, but neither will I judge them or feel as if I failed if they wear pants when they leave.  I will feel as if I failed if they turn their backs on God.....which I hope and pray never happens.
"Train up a child..."  To me that means teach them the Bible and let the Holy Spirit do His work without my help. 

I agree! And I think your mention about how you have "great discussions about modesty" with your kids is a great example of good parenting in general, realizing they belong to God and train them to follow Christ but allow them to define how that looks in their personal lives.

 

[SwampHag]

See, I wasn't allowed to 'discuss' things growing up.  Their word was law and no reason for it.  I always said I wouldn't be like that

 

[Bruh]

IMO, ONE reason IB are loosing young people AND those that are older not old but those coming in, in there 30's or so is this.

Pastors say no we are not judging you if your wife wears pants but she cannot teach Sunday School or be a leader and stand in front of children. But she can be a volunteer and clean the church or help in the nursery.

Nothing wrong with either cleaning or nursery but it does send, IMO, a mixed message.

It's been my experience that the pastors attitude is if, she doesn't want to get on board with us that's fine she just won't teach and so on and so forth.

Which IMO, is very, very, very sad. The family "lines up" with the church except in one area and the wife is reduced to cleaning and nursery.  In all honesty I've seen it time and time again. And my heart breaks for these families. They want to do more for the Lord within the walls of the church and they are held back because of this.

And eventually leave and go somewhere where the wife can serve with liberty. And is not told, we love you and we do not judge you because of your pants (which is the ONLY issue) but it is a big enough sin that you cannot teach our children.

Sad!

 

[cast.sheep]

I am not trying to be divisive.  I am trying to show you ladies that wear pants that you are just as judgmental about *my* clothing choices.  I am not a Pharisee by any means in this area.  Anyone who has been on these forums with me for the past 10+ years will tell you, I don't give a rip what you wear if it is clean and covers you.  But time after time, I have been called some pretty nasty names and been told that my beautiful daughters look 'ugly' in their dresses and culottes....to the point where I won't *ever* post their photo here again and I am very selective who I add on facebook.
So don't call *me* divisive.

I wasn't talking about you, or anyone in particular.  I was talking about ALL of us.  Don't take things so personal. 

 

[cast.sheep]

I am not trying to be divisive.  I am trying to show you ladies that wear pants that you are just as judgmental about *my* clothing choices.  I am not a Pharisee by any means in this area.  Anyone who has been on these forums with me for the past 10+ years will tell you, I don't give a rip what you wear if it is clean and covers you.  But time after time, I have been called some pretty nasty names and been told that my beautiful daughters look 'ugly' in their dresses and culottes....to the point where I won't *ever* post their photo here again and I am very selective who I add on facebook.
So don't call *me* divisive.

I have not judged anyone.  If anything, I have tried to be gracious to everyone because that is truly how I feel.  I am not judgmental toward anyone who dresses differently than I do.  Have you actually read any of my posts before the one that angered you?  If you had, you would understand me a lot better.  Please do not lump us all together.  Just because I wear pants does not mean that I am judgmental about your clothing choices.  I am not.  At all.

 

[cast.sheep]

This thread has revealed a lot about us.  It's been very educational about why we are losing so many of our young people. There is no real discussion about a controversial subject. I think it started out well-intentioned, but all it is doing is creating more divisiveness. And not just from one side. Young people today want understanding of our beliefs. Actually, old people want that too. When they ask questions and express their own thought pattern...and what they get in return is diversion, sarcasm, belittling, and no real listening or conversation, they turn away.

We learned very well from our alma mater!

Carry on!

Does anyone on this subject actually READ what I write?  I specifically said that divisiveness is not coming from one side!  That means that it is coming from ALL sides.  How hard is that to understand? I love how I can write several paragraphs about something and one word, or one phrase, or one sentence is picked out and pounced on.  I have been gracious! I have NOT been judgmental at all! Sigh!  We are such Baptists. 

 

[SwampHag]

I am not trying to be divisive.  I am trying to show you ladies that wear pants that you are just as judgmental about *my* clothing choices.  I am not a Pharisee by any means in this area.  Anyone who has been on these forums with me for the past 10+ years will tell you, I don't give a rip what you wear if it is clean and covers you.  But time after time, I have been called some pretty nasty names and been told that my beautiful daughters look 'ugly' in their dresses and culottes....to the point where I won't *ever* post their photo here again and I am very selective who I add on facebook.
So don't call *me* divisive.

I have not judged anyone.  If anything, I have tried to be gracious to everyone because that is truly how I feel.  I am not judgmental toward anyone who dresses differently than I do.  Have you actually read any of my posts before the one that angered you?  If you had, you would understand me a lot better.  Please do not lump us all together.  Just because I wear pants does not mean that I am judgmental about your clothing choices.  I am not.  At all.

Since I don't even know what you wear, I wasn't directing this towards you, but rather any ladies who judge me for wearing dresses.

Don't take things so personally.

See how that works?  Did you read what *I* wrote?  I was just saying *I* am not divisive in this area.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

IMO, ONE reason IB are loosing young people AND those that are older not old but those coming in, in there 30's or so is this.

Pastors say no we are not judging you if your wife wears pants but she cannot teach Sunday School or be a leader and stand in front of children. But she can be a volunteer and clean the church or help in the nursery.

Nothing wrong with either cleaning or nursery but it does send, IMO, a mixed message.

It's been my experience that the pastors attitude is if, she doesn't want to get on board with us that's fine she just won't teach and so on and so forth.

Which IMO, is very, very, very sad. The family "lines up" with the church except in one area and the wife is reduced to cleaning and nursery.  In all honesty I've seen it time and time again. And my heart breaks for these families. They want to do more for the Lord within the walls of the church and they are held back because of this.

And eventually leave and go somewhere where the wife can serve with liberty. And is not told, we love you and we do not judge you because of your pants (which is the ONLY issue) but it is a big enough sin that you cannot teach our children.

Sad!

I agree with your post...and have seen that attitude in play in many churches.
But, the evangelical church at large is also failing to reach/keep the younger generation...and they do not have the same standards or attitude you reference. In our ministry, ladies wear pants while they minister and serve....from the nursery to the platform but we are still lacking in reaching and keeping the same younger demographic.

 

[cast.sheep]

See, I wasn't allowed to 'discuss' things growing up.  Their word was law and no reason for it.  I always said I wouldn't be like that

I wasn't allowed to 'discuss' things growing up either.  And, like you, we decided that we would NOT be like that as  parents.  And we weren't.  My kids are grown now in their early to mid-twenties.  All are married and all are serving the Lord.  So many of their friends are not and so many of them came from homes where the kids were not allowed to discuss, question, etc.  We talked about EVERYTHING.  Nothing was off-limits.  And now that they are grown, we still have that same closeness and ability to discuss anything.

Let me tell you something Swampy, (giggle) you don't really know WHAT your kids believe until they get out of your house. They don't even know what they believe until they get out of your house.  Just keep praying for them.  Sounds like you are a really good parent.  Believe it or not, we are more on the same page than it might appear.

 

[cast.sheep]

I am not trying to be divisive.  I am trying to show you ladies that wear pants that you are just as judgmental about *my* clothing choices.  I am not a Pharisee by any means in this area.  Anyone who has been on these forums with me for the past 10+ years will tell you, I don't give a rip what you wear if it is clean and covers you.  But time after time, I have been called some pretty nasty names and been told that my beautiful daughters look 'ugly' in their dresses and culottes....to the point where I won't *ever* post their photo here again and I am very selective who I add on facebook.
So don't call *me* divisive.

I have not judged anyone.  If anything, I have tried to be gracious to everyone because that is truly how I feel.  I am not judgmental toward anyone who dresses differently than I do.  Have you actually read any of my posts before the one that angered you?  If you had, you would understand me a lot better.  Please do not lump us all together.  Just because I wear pants does not mean that I am judgmental about your clothing choices.  I am not.  At all.

Since I don't even know what you wear, I wasn't directing this towards you, but rather any ladies who judge me for wearing dresses.

Don't take things so personally.

See how that works?  Did you read what *I* wrote?  I was just saying *I* am not divisive in this area.

Wow.  I really should have read this before my last post. It would seem that we are not on the same page at all. Oh well.